MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 28 12.7%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 171 77.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 11 5.0%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 6 2.7%

  • Total voters
    220

Rajput Lion

Member
Sep 23, 2022
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Do read how many Su30, Mirage 2000 , Mig29UPG , Darins and Tejas squadrons we have.

Where they are placed.

And how many operational squadrons PAF has.

And how many regiments China has in the region.

Ofcourse a F22 is better than all and can kill maybe 8 Su35 simultaneously. But can it kill 8 Su35 in 8 different places?

That is my problem.
Of course IAF squadrons are distributed to tackle both PAF and PLAAF threat whilst PAF squadrons are solely focused on attacking India.

But can't we muster 200 fighters to fight PAF? I think it's fully possible. In fact, I think in a full fledged war, we would achieve air dominance over Pakistan within a week.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,554
968
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Is there an operational 200km BVR in USAF? If not, then they aren't serious.

They have the motors, the battery and seekers with them. But they ain't building it. It means it's not a must have requirement for them.
AIm-120D not Aim-120D3 set a new US record for longest shot/kill of an air to air missile breaking the Pheonix missile record of 126 miles. USAF doesn't say the range of the Aim-120D shot but if it broke the Aim-154 it was likely in the 130-140 mile range. Aim-260 that should enter service early next year will surpass that by a lot.
 
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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Of course IAF squadrons are distributed to tackle both PAF and PLAAF threat whilst PAF squadrons are solely focused on attacking India.

But can't we muster 200 fighters to fight PAF? I think it's fully possible. In fact, I think in a full fledged war, we would achieve air dominance over Pakistan within a week.
Is it the case that PAF doesn't have anti runway weapons? Or Anti Radiation weapons or A2G guided weapons or 350 fighters, the oldest of which still can fire a AIM9 ?

Is there a generation gap between Su30MKI and F16?

Am I missing these things?
 
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Rajput Lion

Member
Sep 23, 2022
218
93
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Is it the case that PAF doesn't have anti runway weapons? Or Anti Radiation weapons or A2G guided weapons or 350 fighters, the oldest of which still can fire a AIM9 ?
PAF has got everything. But then our capabilities are much higher.
Is there a generation gap between Su30MKI and F16?

Am I missing these things?
Forget about Su-30MKI, even our upgraded Mig-29 UPGs and Mirage-2000s are superior to F16. Tejas may not be combat proven, but with its very small RCS and weapons like Derby ER, it's going to be a serious threat to F16s and JF17s.

About Su-30MKI vs F16? Well the internet community may have given up on the MKI, but according to those who fly it and have pitted it against all sorts of modern aircraft, it's that damn good.

According to a veteran MKI pilot:

As a fighter pilot, you look to emerge victorious in every battle; the Su-30 gives you that confidence. Rest is up to you!

What was your most memorable mission?

“Well there have been many over the years but a few that stand out are as follows: –

(a) DACT with F-16 Block 60*of Republic of Singapore Air Force.

(*Ed: think these are actually Block 52)

The strongest adversary that we could possibly face in our life as a fighter pilot was the F-16 of PAF (for obvious reasons). So the excitement of facing an F-16, even in a mock combat was unbelievable. The weight of the mission was overbearing! Perhaps that’s what makes it special. As the combat commenced, we manoeuvred for our lives and in very little time the situation was in our favour! The desperate calls from the F-16, “Flare, Flare, Flare!” are very distinctly audible in my ears even today! From that day, the anxiety that prevailed over facing an F-16 in combat was gone forever…. Vanished! It was clear what the outcome would be!”

IMG_0084.JPG


“Another mission that stand out is a group combat mission that was pitching a Su-30 & one MiG-21 BISON against three F-16 . As luck would have it, the BISON did not get airborne and now the game was one Su-30 vs three F-16 in a BVR scenario. Again, we pushed the envelope, manoeuvred between 3000 ft to 32000 ft, pulling up to 8 g, turning, tumbling, firing and escaping missiles in a simulated engagement. The crew co-ord between us in the cockpit and the fighter controller on the ground was the best that I have ever seen! The results in a mock combat are always contentious but with ACMI, they are more reliable. End score one F-16 claimed without loss. When we got out of the cockpit we were thoroughly drenched in sweat and tired from the continuous high G manoeuvring but all smiles for the ecstasy that we had just experienced.”
So according to our veteran/operational Su-30 MKI pilot, 1 Su-30 fought 3 F16s and returned unscathed with one F16 claimed. And with Derby-ER and ASRAAM it's going to be a bloodbath for PAF. Yes, our Su-30 MKI is that good.

Link of the pilot interview: Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview
 
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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PAF has got everything. But then our capabilities are much higher.

What I am saying is, that when you talk about IA vs PA, don't take the childish assumption of 12 lakh strength vs 6 lakh strength.

Take only what portion of that 12 lakh is actually deployed against Pakistan.

Our defence in North East rests on 3 Su30MKI and 1 Rafale squadron. Would you be willing to call them west ? And leave the east defence less ?

Talk is one thing. Practicality is another.
And the pain our Rafales are capable of imparting to the PAF, would be seriously unbearable for them.
We have just 18 Rafales in the East.
Untill Rafale has warp speed drive capability, I doubt it will be able to defend all of the Western front.
 
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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PAF has got everything. But then our capabilities are much higher.

Forget about Su-30MKI, even our upgraded Mig-29 UPGs and Mirage-2000s are superior to F16. Tejas may not be combat proven, but with its very small RCS and weapons like Derby ER, it's going to be a serious threat to F16s and JF17s.

About Su-30MKI vs F16? Well the internet community may have given up on the MKI, but according to those who fly it and have pitted it against all sorts of modern aircraft, it's that damn good.

According to a veteran MKI pilot:




So according to our veteran/operational Su-30 MKI pilot, 1 Su-30 fought 3 F16s and returned unscathed with one F16 claimed. And with Derby-ER and ASRAAM it's going to be a bloodbath for PAF. Yes, our Su-30 MKI is that good.

Link of the pilot interview: Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview
As I said. The F22 is best. Does that mean having just 1 F22 is enough?
 

Rajput Lion

Member
Sep 23, 2022
218
93
India
What I am saying is, that when you talk about IA vs PA, don't take the childish assumption of 12 lakh strength vs 6 lakh strength.

Take only what portion of that 12 lakh is actually deployed against Pakistan.

Our defence in North East rests on 3 Su30MKI and 1 Rafale squadron. Would you be willing to call them west ? And leave the east defence less ?

Talk is one thing. Practicality is another.

We have just 18 Rafales in the East.
Untill Rafale has warp speed drive capability, I doubt it will be able to defend all of the Western front.
So you are saying that we don't have enough numbers to establish air supremacy over PAF?

Even if 3 MKI and 1 Rafale squadron are stationed in the North-East to tackle the Chinese, we still have 1 Rafale squadron at Ambala to tackle the PAF.

And don't we have over 12 MKI squadrons? Even if 3 are for China and few down South, still we should muster 5/6 squadrons to face PAF(at will). I don't see what's the issue here🤷‍♂️
 
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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So you are saying that we don't have enough numbers to establish air supremacy over PAF?

Even if 3 MKI and 1 Rafale squadron are stationed in the North-East to tackle the Chinese, we still have 1 Rafale squadron at Ambala to tackle the PAF.

And don't we have over 12 MKI squadrons? Even if 3 are for China and few down South, still we should muster 5/6 squadrons to face PAF(at will). I don't see what's the issue here🤷‍♂️
How many PAF squadrons are there ? Just answer this.
 

Rajput Lion

Member
Sep 23, 2022
218
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How many PAF squadrons are there ? Just answer this.
Yeah they have 16 squadrons but apart from 75 F16s, 134 JF17s and 14 J-10Cs most other jets are outdated Mirage 3/5 and F-7.

So if a war breaks out now, we need to worry about 75+134+14 = 223 somewhat modern planes.

Now answer my question, do you think IAF can establish air supremacy over PAF or not?
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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Yeah they have 16 squadrons but apart from 75 F16s, 134 JF17s and 14 J-10Cs most other jets are outdated Mirage 3/5 and F-7.

So if a war breaks out now, we need to worry about 75+134+14 = 223 somewhat modern planes.

Now answer my question, do you think IAF can establish air supremacy over PAF or not?
They have 21 operational squadrons.

F16 ADF :- 01
F16 AM/BM :- 02
F16 C/D :- 01

F7PG :- 02
FT7/F7P :- 02

Mirage III :- 01
Mirage ROSE 1 :- 01
Mirage ROSE 2 :- 01
Mirage ROSE 3 :- 01
Mirage 5 PA/PA2/PA3 :- 02

JF17 :- 06

J10C :- 01

Total : 21 active squadrons

Now we have (except North East Theater and South India )

Mig21 : 03
Mig 29 : 03
Mirage 2000 : 03
Darin III : 06
Su30MKI : 08

Total : 23 squadrons

These 23 squadrons have to deal everything from Pakistan Naval Aviation from Maharashtra Coast to , PAF in west and PLAAF in Leh.

And now to answer your question. Can we obtain air superiority over all of Pakistan with just these?

It will be too difficult. A lot.

And keep in mind that 1st Tejas MK1A squadron comes in 2024 end. By then the Mig21s will also be gone.

So we will be down to 21 squadrons then, and PAF will be at 21 (adding 50 JF17 and another 18 J10 at the very minimum.)
 
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Ankit Kumar

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Add to that they have 04 ZDK 03 and 07 SAAB 2000 AEW.

This will mean they will have 1 AWACS active in North and 1 in South , 24/7 in case of hightened tensions.
 

Rajput Lion

Member
Sep 23, 2022
218
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They have 21 operational squadrons.

F16 ADF :- 01
F16 AM/BM :- 02
F16 C/D :- 01

F7PG :- 02
FT7/F7P :- 02

Mirage III :- 01
Mirage ROSE 1 :- 01
Mirage ROSE 2 :- 01
Mirage ROSE 3 :- 01
Mirage 5 PA/PA2/PA3 :- 02

JF17 :- 06

J10C :- 01

Total : 21 active squadrons

Now we have (except North East Theater and South India )

Mig21 : 03
Mig 29 : 03
Mirage 2000 : 03
Darin III : 06
Su30MKI : 08

Total : 23 squadrons

These 23 squadrons have to deal everything from Pakistan Naval Aviation from Maharashtra Coast to , PAF in west and PLAAF in Leh.

And now to answer your question. Can we obtain air superiority over all of Pakistan with just these?

It will be too difficult. A lot.

And keep in mind that 1st Tejas MK1A squadron comes in 2024 end. By then the Mig21s will also be gone.

So we will be down to 21 squadrons then, and PAF will be at 21 (adding 50 JF17 and another 18 J10 at the very minimum.)
And how many PAF fighters are BVR capable? Except Jaguars all our fighters are BVR capable. That's something that is overlooked, IMO.
Add to that they have 04 ZDK 03 and 07 SAAB 2000 AEW.

This will mean they will have 1 AWACS active in North and 1 in South , 24/7 in case of hightened tensions.
Thanks to S-400s those AEW&C won't come anywhere near 400 km radius of our border. That was my starting point which spawned this debate. You also haven't added 1 Rafale squadron in your calculation.

We have both the qualitative plus quantitative edge vis-a-vis PAF. Only in a 2-front war, our assets are going to be stretched.

Anyways, I do get what you're saying and hope that our War Planners take note too👍
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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And how many PAF fighters are BVR capable? Except Jaguars all our fighters are BVR capable. That's something that is overlooked, IMO.

Thanks to S-400s those AEW&C won't come anywhere near 400 km radius of our border. That was my starting point which spawned this debate. You also haven't added 1 Rafale squadron in your calculation.

We have both the qualitative plus quantitative edge vis-a-vis PAF. Only in a 2-front war, our assets are going to be stretched.

Anyways, I do get what you're saying and hope that our War Planners take note too👍
The strength deployed (Army, IAF and IN) against Pakistan should be such that the quality and quantity itself should be a deterrent.

Without a sureshot peace along west, its not possible to fight and hold PLA.

The Chinese Airforce in western theater alone is 0.75x the size of whole IAF.

Without calling a single aircraft from its east. That's really big. Some are far away in North. But they are there.

When we upgrade a Mig21 squadron with a Rafale squadron, that squadron will have 4x the capability for sure.

But that squadron will not be able to be at 4 different places.

And PAF is not replacing the F7 with F7. They are replacing it with something better only.

As for the planners. They are more interested in Cyber capability and shooting down Quadcopters with LCH than trying to get realistic on 3 important legs of the Airforce.
(Fighters, AWACS and Refuelers)
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
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The strength deployed (Army, IAF and IN) against Pakistan should be such that the quality and quantity itself should be a deterrent.

Without a sureshot peace along west, its not possible to fight and hold PLA.

The Chinese Airforce in western theater alone is 0.75x the size of whole IAF.

Without calling a single aircraft from its east. That's really big. Some are far away in North. But they are there.

When we upgrade a Mig21 squadron with a Rafale squadron, that squadron will have 4x the capability for sure.

But that squadron will not be able to be at 4 different places.

And PAF is not replacing the F7 with F7. They are replacing it with something better only.

As for the planners. They are more interested in Cyber capability and shooting down Quadcopters with LCH than trying to get realistic on 3 important legs of the Airforce.
(Fighters, AWACS and Refuelers)
What we need is a two tiered military. Samjhe. One entirely designed to face Pakistan and do deep invasions. Other to invade China and do surgical strikes and capturing locations for bargaining. We are partially doing this but it has to be absolute. All high end western and russian aircraft facing the west. And position lower end mix of Indian and Russian fighters. For that we need around 600 tejas mk 1, 400 mk2, 350 Flankers, 114 Typhoon T-4, 72-250 Rafales and 36 F-35.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Nov 30, 2017
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What we need is a two tiered military. Samjhe. One entirely designed to face Pakistan and do deep invasions. Other to invade China and do surgical strikes and capturing locations for bargaining. We are partially doing this but it has to be absolute. All high end western and russian aircraft facing the west. And position lower end mix of Indian and Russian fighters. For that we need around 600 tejas mk 1, 400 mk2, 350 Flankers, 114 Typhoon T-4, 72-250 Rafales and 36 F-35.
We cannot ask for more money in the defence. The IAF instead of trying to buy the Apache and Chinook should have acquired Refuelers.

As we discuss now, our Eastern Air Command which will face the major Chinese thrust has 0 Refuelers and 0 AWACS. That's is very grim situation, considering they will be facing upgraded J11s and J20s along with all type of force multipliers.

The IAF should stop trying to score a theater. They should only be concerned with Air Defence. That is the primary thing.

Forget about MMRCA, buy 2 squadrons of Rafales off the shelf and get Tejas MK1A. Get funds for AWACS program. Get the Refuelers Procurement going immediately.

Forget the rotary stuff for the moment. Army Aviation guys are screaming for it, let them have it.

Avoid duplication at all costs. We are not a middle income society. We cannot afford duplication of capabilities.
 

A Person

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Dec 1, 2017
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They are all irrelevant. If the USAF and their 16 squadrons fail, then their treaty allies are just gonna twiddle thumbs as they get their backsides beaten by an enemy that defeated the USAF's high-end F-22s.
If you think the Americans act alone first and then invite the others, you haven't watched how they do things.
As per a USAF general, probably Kelly himself, allies are there only to provide mass, not capability.
Mass is capability.
So if the USAF doesn't do its job of actually penetrating the enemy's air space, then having mass won't matter.
Spoken like someone who's never heard about saturation.
It's pretty much why the Russians only have a small fleet of high end jets. If the small numbers don't survive, then there's no point in having a larger fleet.
It would be funny if they applied this doctrine to their tanks.

But instead, they're throwing train after train of T-62s, T-72, and T-80s into Ukraine. They didn't go "if our 12 or so Armatas can't do it, then let's sue for peace right now".
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
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Rafales with Meteor, S-400, MRSAM, Su-30MKI with i-Derby ER and ASRAAM?? It's going to be a bloodbath for PAF in the next war.

IAF has fully awaken after Feb 2019 and they are ready to crush PAF in a full fledged war. And there is nothing PAF can do about it.
J-10 are probably changing the balance. Where JF-17 are a little bit light and not so effective, J-10 status is probably different (JF17 is not in the Chinese arsenal, maybe not without some good reasons).
Pak seems to order them on a fast track.
 
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Bon Plan

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My guess is it's an AMRAAM with a dual pulse motor and more modern electronics and will give it a range up to 300Km, the same as the PL-15.
300 km is a maximum range, in a semi ballistical trajectory. A kind of rocket, with nearly no kinetic energy at the end, so no probability of kill.
This is a range for non informed people. A range absolutely useless.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,516
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India
But that squadron will not be able to be at 4 different places.

A group of 4 jets are necessary within a range of 300Km, with 4 on the ground, 4 ready to fly and 4 in reserve. I divided the air space facing Pak into 7 zones. So we need 7x16 jets to protect our air space at any one time. That's 112 ASFs. Similarly we need 112 jets for the Chinese front. The numbers have been overestimated.

So, with 200 jets occupied in air defence, the remaining 350 jets can be used to attack the enemy.

Also, PAF has zero high end jets, whereas more than half of the IAF is high end. That's too much of a capability gap.

And all that's without even mentioning the IAF's new advanced IADS, which will free up a significant portion of the 200 jets.