MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 27 12.5%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 169 78.2%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.8%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 10 4.6%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 5 2.3%

  • Total voters
    216

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
7,462
4,579
Nah, they can stay. We will reject them. :cool:

The most important Thing is TIME

We have lost a lot of time already

We just have 1 year before the country gets into Election mode

And The whole thing would get Politicized AGAIN

I can say with Certainty that the opposition will again make a huge drama over non selection of HAL
as the Indian partner

And please put that crook Anil Ambani in jail before signing any agreement with Dassault
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,525
10,771
India
The most important Thing is TIME

We have lost a lot of time already

We just have 1 year before the country gets into Election mode

And The whole thing would get Politicized AGAIN

I can say with Certainty that the opposition will again make a huge drama over non selection of HAL
as the Indian partner

And please put that crook Anil Ambani in jail before signing any agreement with Dassault

An American exit doesn't save much time though.
 

screambowl

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
2,772
1,222
switzerland
So apart from Engine, Radar, Ejection seats, weapons of foreign origin,

India should be little concerned that even after several years of buying foreign weapons, India has not achieved sincere and reliable ToT on engine , radar, and weaponry and if received the institutions have not been able to master the technology and quality control.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
3,798
3,661
Bangalore
India should be little concerned that even after several years of buying foreign weapons, India has not achieved sincere and reliable ToT on engine , radar, and weaponry and if received the institutions have not been able to master the technology and quality control.
Personally, I am all for simply giving all this order to be made in France would be quicker and save like a minimum 3-4 billion USD.

And in return ensure that the MLU facilities are established in India over time and greatest possible share of spares production possible in India is pursued.

Because I believe that Manufacturing ToT will not increase or help in our R&D much. We remain bound by their IPs.

What we can do is get France to be a partner in development of items we can control or in some critical technologies, atleast be a consultant. Would deliver faster and better results.
 

screambowl

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
2,772
1,222
switzerland
Because I believe that Manufacturing ToT will not increase or help in our R&D much
R&D in Manufacturing and the lean manufacturing plus the system integration , testing, and certification has it's own fundamentals, which India still needs to master. So that in case of war, India can produce required weaponry in certain time flawlessly.

What we can do is get France to be a partner in development of items we can control or in some critical technologies, atleast be a consultant. Would deliver faster and better results

India needs them in certification of technology, which is already happening that's the first rule. Anything manufactured in India is not certified in EU if it doesn't comply with their standards. France will need to monitor everything patented in France , and manufactured in India, this is must. Or else later on in can lead to guarantee flaws on parts.
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
1,066
2,224
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Vizag, India

No other foreign jet except Rafale makes sense for the IAF.

F-15EX would have made a good replacement for MKIs if we had no plans to upgrade (or if upgrade program fails to deliver) but the timelines in question make a next-gen platform more lucrative.

I still am in favour of joining either FCAS/NGF or Tempest to deliver a 6th gen air superiority fighter to replace the MKIs into the 2040s and beyond. The French program is particularly lucrative because it appears the 110-125kN engine we're looking to co-develop for AMCA is going to be a smaller cousin of the new variable cycle powerplant that will go into the NGF.

It could be theoretically possible to re-engine the Rafale in the future with the same, during their MLUs. Air Superiority, DPSA & next-gen Multirole fighters all sharing a common engine architecture can create massive benefits. The entire Indian fighter fleet could coalesce around 2 basic engine cores - GE & SAFRAN (F404 & F414 have lot of commonality, plus the same could be used by Navy).
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,753
1,319
Mumbai
No other foreign jet except Rafale makes sense for the IAF.

F-15EX would have made a good replacement for MKIs if we had no plans to upgrade (or if upgrade program fails to deliver) but the timelines in question make a next-gen platform more lucrative.

I still am in favour of joining either FCAS/NGF or Tempest to deliver a 6th gen air superiority fighter to replace the MKIs into the 2040s and beyond. The French program is particularly lucrative because it appears the 110-125kN engine we're looking to co-develop for AMCA is going to be a smaller cousin of the new variable cycle powerplant that will go into the NGF.

It could be theoretically possible to re-engine the Rafale in the future with the same, during their MLUs. Air Superiority, DPSA & next-gen Multirole fighters all sharing a common engine architecture can create massive benefits. The entire Indian fighter fleet could coalesce around 2 basic engine cores - GE & SAFRAN (F404 & F414 have lot of commonality, plus the same could be used by Navy).
F15EX will be a better choice than super sukhoi, its new airframe. It will pave the way for us in to advanced USAF weaponry & probably future US gen 6 aircraft.
People may not agree with me, but truth to be spoken, we may never catch up with USA when comes to aviation engineering, access to US advanced weapon is our only triumph card against Chinese. I want IAF to go for F15EX as a replacement of MKI platforms we inducted earlier.
 

_merlin_

Member
Nov 2, 2020
9
7
IN
F15EX will be a better choice than super sukhoi, its new airframe. It will pave the way for us in to advanced USAF weaponry & probably future US gen 6 aircraft.
People may not agree with me, but truth to be spoken, we may never catch up with USA when comes to aviation engineering, access to US advanced weapon is our only triumph card against Chinese. I want IAF to go for F15EX as a replacement of MKI platforms we inducted earlier.
Replacing MKI with *any* American fighter will be supremely insane.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,525
10,771
India
Personally, I am all for simply giving all this order to be made in France would be quicker and save like a minimum 3-4 billion USD.

And in return ensure that the MLU facilities are established in India over time and greatest possible share of spares production possible in India is pursued.

Because I believe that Manufacturing ToT will not increase or help in our R&D much. We remain bound by their IPs.

What we can do is get France to be a partner in development of items we can control or in some critical technologies, atleast be a consultant. Would deliver faster and better results.

Would be disastrous to have anything more than 2 or 3 squadrons without ToT. We will get ripped when the upkeep bill is sent 'cause the most expensive spares cannot be Indianised.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,525
10,771
India
I still am in favour of joining either FCAS/NGF or Tempest to deliver a 6th gen air superiority fighter to replace the MKIs into the 2040s and beyond. The French program is particularly lucrative because it appears the 110-125kN engine we're looking to co-develop for AMCA is going to be a smaller cousin of the new variable cycle powerplant that will go into the NGF.

It could be theoretically possible to re-engine the Rafale in the future with the same, during their MLUs. Air Superiority, DPSA & next-gen Multirole fighters all sharing a common engine architecture can create massive benefits. The entire Indian fighter fleet could coalesce around 2 basic engine cores - GE & SAFRAN (F404 & F414 have lot of commonality, plus the same could be used by Navy).

The high end component will have to be Indian. By the time AI hits the scene, we will need full electronics and software control for immediate modifications. AI evolution with self-learning capabilities will happen in mere hours, which needs simulations and patching as the battles flow. Meaning the fighter AI will need to be put through thousands of years of training within a short span of a few hours. And any changes will need to be coordinated with the common network AI which then flows down to the main AIs of the army and navy. Not just tactics, even weapons and loadouts will have to see constant evolution. It will become impossible to fight wars without actually controlling the tech.

It's among the reasons why I keep saying warfare will soon become the domain of the rich. We have a short period of time right now, about 15 years, when imported tech will still work, whether it's the Rafale or FGFA. From 2040 onwards, our main capabilities across the board are gonna have to be indigenous.

Where imports may work is a stopgap purchase of 2-3 squadrons, considering we ourselves failed to match it with indigenous tech, which will give us an advantage for a day or two before the Chinese learn how to beat it. The French/British/Americans are not gonna deliver us the tech we need for evolution unless we surrender sovereignty. Instead, we will have to hand over a major chunk of our secrets to keep the FCAS viable, or, of course indigenise FCAS avionics, which will make its import pointless in the first place.

MRFA MLU should see significant Indian input or even indigenisation. Or else it will become the only aircraft sitting outside our AI network after 2045. FGFA was more workable because it was supposed to use indigenous software and computers right off the bat, with very likely full indigenisation of avionics during MLU to complete the build.
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
1,066
2,224
25
Vizag, India
The high end component will have to be Indian. By the time AI hits the scene, we will need full electronics and software control for immediate modifications. AI evolution with self-learning capabilities will happen in mere hours, which needs simulations and patching as the battles flow. Meaning the fighter AI will need to be put through thousands of years of training within a short span of a few hours. And any changes will need to be coordinated with the common network AI which then flows down to the main AIs of the army and navy. Not just tactics, even weapons and loadouts will have to see constant evolution. It will become impossible to fight wars without actually controlling the tech.

It's among the reasons why I keep saying warfare will soon become the domain of the rich. We have a short period of time right now, about 15 years, when imported tech will still work, whether it's the Rafale or FGFA. From 2040 onwards, our main capabilities across the board are gonna have to be indigenous.

Where imports may work is a stopgap purchase of 2-3 squadrons, considering we ourselves failed to match it with indigenous tech, which will give us an advantage for a day or two before the Chinese learn how to beat it. The French/British/Americans are not gonna deliver us the tech we need for evolution unless we surrender sovereignty. Instead, we will have to hand over a major chunk of our secrets to keep the FCAS viable, or, of course indigenise FCAS avionics, which will make its import pointless in the first place.

MRFA MLU should see significant Indian input or even indigenisation. Or else it will become the only aircraft sitting outside our AI network after 2045. FGFA was more workable because it was supposed to use indigenous software and computers right off the bat, with very likely full indigenisation of avionics during MLU to complete the build.

So far we've failed to indigenize even a pulse-doppler radar for Tejas Mk-1. Mk-1A was supposed to have Uttam now it will be ELM-2052.

Now they're saying Mk-2 will have indigenous radar - but who knows if this promise will be kept. We have a history of overpromising & underdelivering. Add to that the meager investments in AI in the country and I'm not very hopeful of any meaningful domestic advancements in that field from our side. To have battlefield-ready deployable AIs by the 2040s, we need to have labs & companies working on the cutting edge of AI R&D today - we don't.

An export-version avionics package built around COTS network interfacing (of the time) will be provided for every next-gen fighter sold to others. Best we can hope is that this will still be better than what the Chinese can deploy. Currently even downgraded export systems of Western companies are eons ahead of Russian/Chinese electronics.

The gap may not remain as large into the future, but then again, we mustn't forget that most of the much-talked about Chinese investments & blue-chip startups in AI are in the field of facial recognition & mass surveillance...actual cutting-edge military AI advancements remain Western.
 

TARGET

Well-Known member
Dec 2, 2017
695
578
Approx 19 billion, so like 1.5 billion USD a year for 13 years. Funds shouldn't be a problem.

MKI for a pvt sector entity. Hopefully it is more fruitful than MKI was for HAL.
Yes, funds are the primary concern in this volatile market where everyone is struggling to keep inflation under control. The MMRCA media reports seem to be scripted to keep all the vendors on the edge of their seats and keep the "make in India" option as an exciting investment plan. If the IAF is lucky, we may see some Chinooks or Apaches. The next major acquisitions for the MOD and the IN are the IAC1 aircraft, but the main actions are pending from HAL and ADA, but these guys are working for month-end salaries, so some media escalation may be needed to wake them up from hibernation, else no good news is coming in the future.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,753
1,319
Mumbai
So far we've failed to indigenize even a pulse-doppler radar for Tejas Mk-1. Mk-1A was supposed to have Uttam now it will be ELM-2052.

Now they're saying Mk-2 will have indigenous radar - but who knows if this promise will be kept. We have a history of overpromising & underdelivering. Add to that the meager investments in AI in the country and I'm not very hopeful of any meaningful domestic advancements in that field from our side. To have battlefield-ready deployable AIs by the 2040s, we need to have labs & companies working on the cutting edge of AI R&D today - we don't.

An export-version avionics package built around COTS network interfacing (of the time) will be provided for every next-gen fighter sold to others. Best we can hope is that this will still be better than what the Chinese can deploy. Currently even downgraded export systems of Western companies are eons ahead of Russian/Chinese electronics.

The gap may not remain as large into the future, but then again, we mustn't forget that most of the much-talked about Chinese investments & blue-chip startups in AI are in the field of facial recognition & mass surveillance...actual cutting-edge military AI advancements remain Western.
The initial plan was the entire mk1a will be using Israeli AESA radar, but mean time as usual & as happened in many other projects , the greedy indian industry gave assurance that Uttam will be ready much earlier, and it was decided few Mk1a will make uses dedi Uttams. This was the story, dont know what happened afterwards, what is the status now?
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,554
1,004
Delhi
F15EX will be a better choice than super sukhoi, its new airframe. It will pave the way for us in to advanced USAF weaponry & probably future US gen 6 aircraft.
People may not agree with me, but truth to be spoken, we may never catch up with USA when comes to aviation engineering, access to US advanced weapon is our only triumph card against Chinese. I want IAF to go for F15EX as a replacement of MKI platforms we inducted earlier.
The f-15EX doesn't have maws. I have huge doubts if it wins. Although an order of atleast 36 f-15EX's to replace the jaguar Darin 1 and Darin 2 can be done in the future. It can fit that role very well.
The su-30 mki upgrade is also required simulataneously. Flankers are still a superior design at the end of the day
 

Parthu

Gessler
Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
1,066
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F15EX will be a better choice than super sukhoi, its new airframe. It will pave the way for us in to advanced USAF weaponry & probably future US gen 6 aircraft.
People may not agree with me, but truth to be spoken, we may never catch up with USA when comes to aviation engineering, access to US advanced weapon is our only triumph card against Chinese. I want IAF to go for F15EX as a replacement of MKI platforms we inducted earlier.

MKI, with or without upgrade, should be replaced by a next-gen VLO aircraft. F-15EX should not even be considered until & unless its determined that we cannot go for a 6G air superiority fighter induction by around 2045 - which is when we'll need to begin replacing some of the oldest MKI airframes.

The initial plan was the entire mk1a will be using Israeli AESA radar, but mean time as usual & as happened in many other projects , the greedy indian industry gave assurance that Uttam will be ready much earlier, and it was decided few Mk1a will make uses dedi Uttams. This was the story, dont know what happened afterwards, what is the status now?

Now the entire Mk-1A order will be fitted with Israeli AESA and EW suite.

The f-15EX doesn't have maws.

Yes it does.

(bottom right circle):

F-15EX_First_Flight_Details_5b.jpeg


(directly below canopy):

F-15QA_6.jpg


I have huge doubts if it wins.

It won't, rest assured.

Although an order of atleast 36 f-15EX's to replace the jaguar Darin 1 and Darin 2 can be done in the future. It can fit that role very well.

The EX is intended as an air superiority platform - as was the original F-15. The version you're thinking of is the F-15E Strike Eagle.

But it doesn't matter because the Rafales are very capable of fulfilling any & all Strike roles, there's no need of a new platform in that segment.

The su-30 mki upgrade is also required simulataneously.

If the MKI upgrade happens, then there's no need of F-15EX.

Flankers are still a superior design at the end of the day

Unfortunately they lag seriously behind in most aspects that determine outcome of modern air combat. The airframes lack sufficient composite content and do not last as long as Western frames do, the Russian engines cannot be worked as hard for as long as the Western ones can, so your sortie rate is reduced & you require more frequent maintenance. Electronics & radars need not even be mentioned as most off the shelf Russian equipment is pretty much crap compared to its Western counterpart.

It would've made justice to the term of being a 'superior design' if we were to come out with a new-build composite Flanker airframe, and replace the engines with American ones, and replace all electronics with Western/Israeli/Indian ones.

The Chinese illegally duplicated the Flanker IP so many times (J-11, J-15, J-16), no reason why we shouldn't do the same if Russia fails to deliver. Alas, IAF, HAL & MoD lack imagination.
 
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Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,753
1,319
Mumbai
The f-15EX doesn't have maws. I have huge doubts if it wins. Although an order of atleast 36 f-15EX's to replace the jaguar Darin 1 and Darin 2 can be done in the future. It can fit that role very well.
The su-30 mki upgrade is also required simulataneously. Flankers are still a superior design at the end of the day


MKI upgradation may not materialise at all.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,525
10,771
India
So far we've failed to indigenize even a pulse-doppler radar for Tejas Mk-1. Mk-1A was supposed to have Uttam now it will be ELM-2052.

It's only for 1 squadron through, the first 16 jets. The rest will get Uttam. And this is probably because we had already agreed with Israel that two IAF jets will get the 2052, so HAL is probably following through on that promise.

Now they're saying Mk-2 will have indigenous radar - but who knows if this promise will be kept. We have a history of overpromising & underdelivering. Add to that the meager investments in AI in the country and I'm not very hopeful of any meaningful domestic advancements in that field from our side. To have battlefield-ready deployable AIs by the 2040s, we need to have labs & companies working on the cutting edge of AI R&D today - we don't.

An export-version avionics package built around COTS network interfacing (of the time) will be provided for every next-gen fighter sold to others. Best we can hope is that this will still be better than what the Chinese can deploy. Currently even downgraded export systems of Western companies are eons ahead of Russian/Chinese electronics.

The gap may not remain as large into the future, but then again, we mustn't forget that most of the much-talked about Chinese investments & blue-chip startups in AI are in the field of facial recognition & mass surveillance...actual cutting-edge military AI advancements remain Western.

We are already working on AI, photonics and quantum technologies. LCA Mk2 is expected to be optionally-manned, alongside AMCA.
 

suryakiran

Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
865
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It's only for 1 squadron through, the first 16 jets. The rest will get Uttam. And this is probably because we had already agreed with Israel that two IAF jets will get the 2052, so HAL is probably following through on that promise.

I thought all the Mk1As were to be 2052 due to some problem with power management.