MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 28 12.7%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 171 77.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 11 5.0%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 6 2.7%

  • Total voters
    220

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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Bangalore
@Picdelamirand-oil will be happy to know MRFA will be a pretty quick tender. 3-3.5 years at best.

P-75I took 2 years for EOI to RFP, MRFA should only take 6 months. All the contenders are minimum at least in the IOC stage, and that helps a lot.
We know that the payments for MMRCA will likely be over 10 years or maybe more depending upon the speed of final assembly plant in India. Do we have the CAPEX in IAF this coming FY to sign for it? 15% of 15+ billion USD. Somewhere near 2.3 billion USD.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
We know that the payments for MMRCA will likely be over 10 years or maybe more depending upon the speed of final assembly plant in India. Do we have the CAPEX in IAF this coming FY to sign for it? 15% of 15+ billion USD. Somewhere near 2.3 billion USD.

Of course. Any MRFA signature will happen only after 2025. And out of a potential $8-10B yearly capex, earmarking $2.3B for MRFA isn't difficult, especially when it will be accorded the number one priority by then.
 

RISING SUN

Senior member
Dec 3, 2017
13,801
6,241
The original purpose of MRCA completion was to have single engine multi role aircraft, simple, elegant, cheaper throughout cost and easy to maintain. Somewhere along the line and with passage of time, we forgot the track and got spoilt with so many choices.
The initial aims of the new jet procurement were as below (open to correction, addition etc.):
1. Single engine jet to replace aging fleet.
2. Cost effective throughout the service life including cheaper to procure,
3. Multi role,
4. Faster response time to get airborne,
5. Simple (to be able to replace as many aircraft as much possible to enable minimum diversified fleet),
6. Easy & cheap to maintain,
7. To replace older Migs to avoid multiple avoidable mishaps.
8. To act like stepping stone to usher in domestic defence Arial industry revolution.

We have lost two decades of crucial time in between with no technical know-how gained industrially neither a effective Arial force (meaning number of jets in service which should have been reduced to bare minimum.)


I am still proponent of single engine fighter jets over dual engine aircraft seeing the current state of air force.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,992
India
The original purpose of MRCA completion was to have single engine multi role aircraft, simple, elegant, cheaper throughout cost and easy to maintain. Somewhere along the line and with passage of time, we forgot the track and got spoilt with so many choices.
The initial aims of the new jet procurement were as below (open to correction, addition etc.):
1. Single engine jet to replace aging fleet.
2. Cost effective throughout the service life including cheaper to procure,
3. Multi role,
4. Faster response time to get airborne,
5. Simple (to be able to replace as many aircraft as much possible to enable minimum diversified fleet),
6. Easy & cheap to maintain,
7. To replace older Migs to avoid multiple avoidable mishaps.
8. To act like stepping stone to usher in domestic defence Arial industry revolution.

We have lost two decades of crucial time in between with no technical know-how gained industrially neither a effective Arial force (meaning number of jets in service which should have been reduced to bare minimum.)


I am still proponent of single engine fighter jets over dual engine aircraft seeing the current state of air force.

The original MRCA split into 150-200 single engine and 150-200 twin engine more than 15 years ago.

The single engine requirement converted from M2000 to Gripen E/F-16 to LCA Mk2. The twin engine requirement came up in the form of MMRCA and now the MRFA.
 
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,461
4,226
Bangalore
I am still proponent of single engine fighter jets over dual engine aircraft seeing the current state of air force.
Well LCA MK2 happening is the make or break for our aviation.

We need another line too in the interim. Hopefully something better in capabilities is chosen. Because a variant of J31 is going into PAF before we can get AMCA MK1 anywhere near certification. And single engines won't be up to the task.
 

A Person

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
1,091
1,079
A Place
However, Miranda is critical of one particular aspect of the MRFA competition. “We must acknowledge the elephant in the room – the Indian Air Force is looking for one model to replace four different combat aircraft. I understand the urgency of replacing the antiquated MiG-21, but I can’t grasp the rationale for a new fighter model to simultaneously cover the decommissioning of the ground attack Sepecat Jaguar and a multi-role fighter like the Mirage 2000. It is quite senseless, in my view,” he opined.
The Rafale replaced the Jaguar and the Mirage 2000 in France. As well as Mirage IV, Mirage F1, Crusader, and Super Etendard. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

The original purpose of MRCA completion was to have single engine multi role aircraft, simple, elegant, cheaper throughout cost and easy to maintain.
The single engine niche is the Tejas' niche. The aircraft in that category, Gripen and F-16, are competing with the Tejas. Politically, this is not acceptable.

That's why the single-engine competition was dropped, and instead orders were passed for 40 Tejas Mk. 1A and 80 Tejas Mk. 2, with long term plans to have over 320 Tejas in its various variants.
 

RISING SUN

Senior member
Dec 3, 2017
13,801
6,241
The Rafale replaced the Jaguar and the Mirage 2000 in France. As well as Mirage IV, Mirage F1, Crusader, and Super Etendard. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.


The single engine niche is the Tejas' niche. The aircraft in that category, Gripen and F-16, are competing with the Tejas. Politically, this is not acceptable.

That's why the single-engine competition was dropped, and instead orders were passed for 40 Tejas Mk. 1A and 80 Tejas Mk. 2, with long term plans to have over 320 Tejas in its various variants.
Sorry I don't see that way. The time to purchase single engine jets is past time now. Instead of focusing on aircrafts mentioned in your post, I would have preferred if India had gone ahead with latest model of Mirage 2000. Most people are so much biased technically/politically in their opinion that they miss the branches for the bushes when it comes to the saga of MRCA competition.
Even now also I prefer single engine multirole aircraft for border intrusion interception role.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,596
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France
Dassault Press release just received.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

(Saint-Cloud, 10 February 2022)


In the presence of the French Minister of the Armed Forces, Florence Parly, and the Indonesian Minister of Defence, Prabowo Subianto, the Chairman and CEO of Dassault of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, and Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Head of the Head of the Indonesian Ministry of Defence Procurement Agency, signed the contract for Indonesia's the contract for Indonesia's acquisition of 42 latest-generation Rafale aircraft, at a ceremony in Jakarta today.

The acquisition of the Rafales for the Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara (Air Force (Indonesian National Army Air Force) includes a complete turnkey solution that package that includes aircrew training, logistical support to support the activity of several logistical support to support the activity of several Indonesian air bases, as well as a training training centre with two mission simulators.

The Rafale, with its unique "omnirole" character, will be a tool of sovereignty and operational independence that will strengthen the operational independence that will consolidate Indonesia's role as a major regional power. power.

A significant industrial return will benefit Indonesian industry in the aeronautical field as well as in all other fields. aeronautics as well as in all the other major areas of cooperation related to the broad portfolio of dual portfolio of dual technologies mastered by Dassault Aviation and its industrial partners industrial partners, Safran Aircraft Engines and Thales.

"It is a great honour for Dassault Aviation to see the Rafale join the highly prestigious prestigious Air Force of the Indonesian National Army, the Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara, and I would like to thank the Indonesian authorities for the trust they have placed in us. trust placed in us. This contract marks the beginning of a long-term partnership that will result in The contract marks the beginning of a long-term partnership that will result in the rapid and concrete development of Dassault Aviation's presence in the country.

It also demonstrates the strong link between Indonesia and France and reinforces the position of the world's largest archipelago as a major supplier of aircraft to the country. archipelago as a key power on the international scene. I I am confident that the Rafale will meet the operational needs of the Indonesian Air Force I am confident that the Rafale will meet the operational needs of the Indonesian Air Force, actively contributing to the defence and sovereignty of the Republic of Indonesia," said Eric Republic of Indonesia," said Eric Trappier on this occasion.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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FLN6NlNWQAMT_Mq
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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France

L’Irak envisage de se procurer 14 avions Rafale, des CAESAr et des drones auprès de la France

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Iraq plans to buy 14 Rafale aircraft, CAESAr and drones from France


On 25 January, two Rafales assigned to the projected air base [BAP] in Jordan under Operation Chammal took part in an air combat exercise with four Iraqi F-16s. According to the explanations given by the Armed Forces General Staff [EMA], their mission was to attack a point defended by the Iraqi air force. He added that "different kinematics were carried out by the French fighters, forcing the opposing force to manoeuvre to defend the area".

Such a Franco-Iraqi exercise was not new... since three were in fact conducted in 2021, when Baghdad had expressed its interest in the fighter plane produced by Dassault Aviation. But for the EMA, it is above all a question of accompanying the Iraqi forces "in their rise to power and until they reach complete autonomy", in accordance with the advisory and assistance mission of the anti-jihadist coalition led by the United States.

That said, the Iraqi air force is having some difficulty keeping its 34 F-16IQs, acquired from the United States in 2011, in flying condition. These difficulties have been exacerbated by the departure of the American technicians responsible for their maintenance. And it is now estimated that it can count on about twenty aircraft available. In addition, it lacks ammunition and certain capabilities considered crucial.

In January 2021, the Iraqi Minister of Defence, Juma Enad Saadoun, confirmed Baghdad's interest in the Rafale, even going so far as to say that a contract was about to be signed, the financial aspects not yet having been defined. But he did not specify the number of aircraft that could be acquired.

At the same time, it was claimed that Iraq was also seeking to procure Chinese-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder fighters from Islamabad. The Nation newspaper reported in September 2021 that an order for 12 of them would soon be signed.

In an interview with al-Arabiya on 30 January, Juma Enad Saadoun said that Iraq had 'signed a contract with a Pakistani company for the purchase of aircraft', without giving further details... Was it the JF-17 Thunder? Or was it an order for Super Mushshak trainers from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex [PAC]? In any case, this is what Norman Ricklefs, who heads the NAMEA Group consultancy, which is close to the Iraqi government, said.

According to Defense News, he recently met with Iraqi Ministry of Defense officials to discuss their intentions for military equipment. He learned that Baghdad still intends to buy 14 Rafales "for $240 million [per unit], paid for in oil rather than cash. Ricklefs' price tag - $3.36 billion - is to include ammunition, support, spare parts and training. However, other contracts are in the pipeline.

Ricklefs also said that the Iraqi Ministry of Defence was considering a French offer for 20 drones - the type of which was not specified - and that it would soon send a delegation to France to evaluate the proposed system.

According to an interview given to the Iraqi news agency by General Qasim al-Muhammadi, the chief of staff of the Iraqi ground forces, the system is likely to be a Patroller tactical drone.

"Iraq is negotiating many contracts, including for armed drones capable of flying for 30 hours in Iraqi airspace, destroying targets and continuously monitoring various areas, with proven capability and effectiveness," he said. And the only aircraft of this type that France can currently offer is the Patroller, from Safran... Which has not yet entered service with the army. It should be noted that, according to Mr Ricklefs, Pakistan is also in line to sell 20 drones to Baghdad.

Finally, General al-Muhammadi also hinted that Baghdad is considering the purchase of "excellent high precision artillery systems" from France. Clearly, Nexter's CAESAr [155 mm artillery system truck] could soon equip Iraqi forces, after having been effectively deployed in Iraq by the Army [TF Wagram] as part of operations against the Islamic State.
 
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randomradio

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L’Irak envisage de se procurer 14 avions Rafale, des CAESAr et des drones auprès de la France

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Iraq plans to buy 14 Rafale aircraft, CAESAr and drones from France


On 25 January, two Rafales assigned to the projected air base [BAP] in Jordan under Operation Chammal took part in an air combat exercise with four Iraqi F-16s. According to the explanations given by the Armed Forces General Staff [EMA], their mission was to attack a point defended by the Iraqi air force. He added that "different kinematics were carried out by the French fighters, forcing the opposing force to manoeuvre to defend the area".

Such a Franco-Iraqi exercise was not new... since three were in fact conducted in 2021, when Baghdad had expressed its interest in the fighter plane produced by Dassault Aviation. But for the EMA, it is above all a question of accompanying the Iraqi forces "in their rise to power and until they reach complete autonomy", in accordance with the advisory and assistance mission of the anti-jihadist coalition led by the United States.

That said, the Iraqi air force is having some difficulty keeping its 34 F-16IQs, acquired from the United States in 2011, in flying condition. These difficulties have been exacerbated by the departure of the American technicians responsible for their maintenance. And it is now estimated that it can count on about twenty aircraft available. In addition, it lacks ammunition and certain capabilities considered crucial.

In January 2021, the Iraqi Minister of Defence, Juma Enad Saadoun, confirmed Baghdad's interest in the Rafale, even going so far as to say that a contract was about to be signed, the financial aspects not yet having been defined. But he did not specify the number of aircraft that could be acquired.

At the same time, it was claimed that Iraq was also seeking to procure Chinese-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder fighters from Islamabad. The Nation newspaper reported in September 2021 that an order for 12 of them would soon be signed.

In an interview with al-Arabiya on 30 January, Juma Enad Saadoun said that Iraq had 'signed a contract with a Pakistani company for the purchase of aircraft', without giving further details... Was it the JF-17 Thunder? Or was it an order for Super Mushshak trainers from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex [PAC]? In any case, this is what Norman Ricklefs, who heads the NAMEA Group consultancy, which is close to the Iraqi government, said.

According to Defense News, he recently met with Iraqi Ministry of Defense officials to discuss their intentions for military equipment. He learned that Baghdad still intends to buy 14 Rafales "for $240 million [per unit], paid for in oil rather than cash. Ricklefs' price tag - $3.36 billion - is to include ammunition, support, spare parts and training. However, other contracts are in the pipeline.

Ricklefs also said that the Iraqi Ministry of Defence was considering a French offer for 20 drones - the type of which was not specified - and that it would soon send a delegation to France to evaluate the proposed system.

According to an interview given to the Iraqi news agency by General Qasim al-Muhammadi, the chief of staff of the Iraqi ground forces, the system is likely to be a Patroller tactical drone.

"Iraq is negotiating many contracts, including for armed drones capable of flying for 30 hours in Iraqi airspace, destroying targets and continuously monitoring various areas, with proven capability and effectiveness," he said. And the only aircraft of this type that France can currently offer is the Patroller, from Safran... Which has not yet entered service with the army. It should be noted that, according to Mr Ricklefs, Pakistan is also in line to sell 20 drones to Baghdad.

Finally, General al-Muhammadi also hinted that Baghdad is considering the purchase of "excellent high precision artillery systems" from France. Clearly, Nexter's CAESAr [155 mm artillery system truck] could soon equip Iraqi forces, after having been effectively deployed in Iraq by the Army [TF Wagram] as part of operations against the Islamic State.

Great. So potential 42+14+26. Although I had assumed the Iraqis will go for a full squadron at the very least.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
This is because they want to have an air force superior to Kuwait's (pride obliges). They bought 28 Typhoons and 28 F-18 SH so they calculated that they needed 14 Rafales. :cool:

True dat.

But seriously though, I think these are just initial numbers. It should climb to at least one full squadron, if not two.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,596
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True dat.

But seriously though, I think these are just initial numbers. It should climb to at least one full squadron, if not two.
For a long time we thought that Indonesia was going to buy us 6 Rafales and they bought 42, 7 times more! If we apply this ratio to Iraq, it would be 98. I think we have to wait to see the real figure and I don't think it is very urgent, neither for Dassault nor for Iraq. So it's going to take some time.

We have learned that Dassault is testing with subcontractors the possibility of increasing the number of equipment produced per month to 5. As the assembly line is limited to 3 per month, this would mean opening a second line, perhaps in India, and perhaps not, we don't know. But the prospects are good.
 

Arctic Wolf

Member
Sep 7, 2021
75
45
Odisha
@Picdelamirand-oil, this isn't the right thread, but is there any information on France's V-Max hypersonic missile? It was supposed to be tested in 2021, though it seems that hasn't happened. Also, what happened to the ASN4G missile for the air force?