MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 24 12.2%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 154 78.6%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 9 4.6%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    196

Dawg-69

Member
Feb 23, 2021
19
20
Finland
The US will never admit it officialy, but it's possible that the whole system will never work properly. Too big software, badly studied, made by too many teams without the proper dev rules....
They are just sooooo screwed...

They need to keep the F-35 afloat. But at the same time they want to start developing new aircraft. The money for the new designs is all away from SOMETHING else. The F-35 remains an endless P.I.T.A.

The Rafale is maybe the best example of a program that is balanced and is going according to plan. There are always some problems and some delays, but less with Rafale than with most other fighter planes.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
"Crucial F-35 Combat Test Risks a Delay to 2022, Five Years Late"

Thoughts, opinions?

Could it be so that the F-35 will never come out of IOT&E?

I personally think it is now game over for the F-35 in Finland's HX. Decision in Finland will be made towards the end of 2021. I can't see how they could possible choose a prototype.


Without the complete IOT&E testing, the aircraft is just a flying truck. And what it means is Block 3F won't be ready until 2022, which again is a tentative date and subject to change.

If Finland is serious about getting actual verifiable capability than chase after politics, then not choosing the F-35 now is a no-brainer. But I get the feeling all the Nordic countries that import their requirement are going to choose American tech by default, especially considering Russia is getting more belligerent.
 
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Dawg-69

Member
Feb 23, 2021
19
20
Finland
If Finland is serious about getting actual verifiable capability than chase after politics, then not choosing the F-35 now is a no-brainer. But I get the feeling all the Nordic countries that import their requirement are going to choose American tech by default, especially considering Russia is getting more belligerent.

Well if for some reason it is a must to get American, then the Super Hornet is also offered. However I have my doubts about it. It is not very good in A2A.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
Well if for some reason it is a must to get American, then the Super Hornet is also offered. However I have my doubts about it. It is not very good in A2A.

Even if it was good in A2A, it's not enough against Russia, so it defeats the purpose.

Although people push for the SH, it's simply not meant to be an air force jet. It's not even a very good design for the navy, it's just meh. It's an excellent replacement for some types of strike jets like the Jaguar or Tornado, but that's about it, and such a requirement is pretty much dead in the water considering all the new technologies coming up.

Anyway, I wonder if all our foreign members have placed their bets.

Those are some interesting odds for the Rafale.
 
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Dawg-69

Member
Feb 23, 2021
19
20
Finland
One interesting bit of info is that Finland has been cleared for the next version of JASMM. But.

But but but. JASMM integration for F-35 will be in Block 5. Block 4 will be late by Vishnu knows how much. Block 5 will take forever.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
One interesting bit of info is that Finland has been cleared for the next version of JASMM. But.

But but but. JASMM integration for F-35 will be in Block 5. Block 4 will be late by Vishnu knows how much. Block 5 will take forever.

Finland already operates the JASSM on the Hornets.

Anyway, something like the JASSM can be integrated with any NATO aircraft, so I doubt it will play a part in acquisition. Plus there are other Europeans equivalents.
 
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Dawg-69

Member
Feb 23, 2021
19
20
Finland
Finland already operates the JASSM on the Hornets.
Yes, of course, but my point is that they would like the same capability on HX. They are not getting it with the F-35 for many many many years. We know well which weapons are coming in which block. JASSM will be in Block 5. Block 4 will be also late.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
Yes, of course, but my point is that they would like the same capability on HX. They are not getting it with the F-35 for many many many years. We know well which weapons are coming in which block. JASSM will be in Block 5. Block 4 will be also late.

I guess that except for the SH, it's gonna be late for all. But I wouldn't care much about this, better missiles will be made by then.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
Well they wouldn't buy the JASSM-Er for the European aircraft. First of all, it is not even being offered for the Eurocanards.

I suppose MBDA will increase the range of SCALP/Short Shadow in a similar manner in the near future. There's also the Taurus.
 

Dawg-69

Member
Feb 23, 2021
19
20
Finland
They are also planning a supersonic/hypersonic missile that would serve two purposes: it would be both a cruise missile and an anti-ship missile. Not sure when that would come to market. It would be available for both the Typhoon and the Rafale.

I don't know what the Swedes are offering to Finland with the Gripen. Maybe the RBS-15 would be satisfactory, as the newest version can also hit land targets. It's range is maybe enough when fired from an aircraft, I don't know.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
They are also planning a supersonic/hypersonic missile that would serve two purposes: it would be both a cruise missile and an anti-ship missile. Not sure when that would come to market. It would be available for both the Typhoon and the Rafale.

I don't know what the Swedes are offering to Finland with the Gripen. Maybe the RBS-15 would be satisfactory, as the newest version can also hit land targets. It's range is maybe enough when fired from an aircraft, I don't know.

JASSM-ER's cousin is the special one, the LRASM. It comes with next gen technologies and is important. Other than that, yeah, the future will belong to hypersonics, and right now whatever the Europeans are developing will likely end up in the list of import options for European customers, the same can't be guaranteed from America though.

France and UK are working on a next gen missile together.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,071
2,579
72
France
transition.wifeo.com

En Inde, Jean-Yves Le Drian achève une visite pour pousser la stratégie « indo-pacifique » de la France


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

In India, Jean-Yves Le Drian completes a visit to push France's "Indo-Pacific" strategy

The Foreign Minister spent four days between New Delhi and Bengalore from 12 to 15 April, against the backdrop of shared fears about Chinese expansionism.


By Guillaume Delacroix(Mumbai, correspondence), Sophie Landrin(New Delhi, correspondent) and Elise Vincent

It was a relatively discreet visit, without a press conference, but with important issues at stake in terms of diplomacy and defence, which was to end in India on Thursday 15 April for the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Jean-Yves Le Drian. This trip was tied to the Raisina Dialogue, an annual regional diplomacy meeting under the auspices of New Delhi. And this, while France has long sought to strengthen its foothold in India, in order to protect its interests from Chinese appetites in the Indo-Pacific area.

The main objective for Paris was thus to display for the first time a trilateral dialogue, at a ministerial level, between France, India and Australia. While Paris has had intensive exchanges with these two countries for years, notably in the framework of "strategic partnerships", this meeting was intended to be one more brick in the anchoring of a Paris-New Delhi-Canberra axis in the face of the vice of Sino-American tensions. France is particularly concerned that its millions of square kilometres of exclusive economic zone, held as part of its overseas territories, may one day be at risk.

Beyond this display, Mr Le Drian's visit was closely linked to French economic interests on the subcontinent. In particular, the possible sale of additional Rafale aircraft, of which India has already purchased 36 from Dassault Aviation in 2016 for nearly 8 billion euros. New Delhi had initially considered buying more than 120 of them, but backed off after the political changeover in India in 2014. Since 2018, new tenders have been launched with potentially more than 150 aircraft at stake. Dassault is back in the running, but the sale is not looking good.

Rafale and bribes

While the Indian army has strongly reorganized in 2020, the relevance of the Rafale purchase is the subject of divergences within the military. New Delhi has also suffered from the Covid-19 health crisis and the state coffers are empty. Finally, very concerned about its "strategic autonomy" in terms of defence, India has developed since 2014 a policy of "Make in India", recently tightened. A situation that complicates the already traditionally long and bitter negotiations for arms contracts.

This situation was also marred in early April by a series of articles from Mediapart, questioning the integrity of the 2016 Rafale contract. According to the investigative website, Dassault Aviation and its partner Thales would have paid millions of euros to an Indian intermediary, Sushen Gupta, to conclude this sale to the army framed by an intergovernmental agreement signed by Mr. Le Drian, then Minister of Defence under François Hollande. This intermediary would have redistributed part of the money in bribes to Indian officials.
 
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Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,465
674
Mumbai
JASSM-ER's cousin is the special one, the LRASM. It comes with next gen technologies and is important. Other than that, yeah, the future will belong to hypersonics, and right now whatever the Europeans are developing will likely end up in the list of import options for European customers, the same can't be guaranteed from America though.

France and UK are working on a next gen missile together.
What is that new missile? We will get that as scalp replacement or do we have any in-house plan for such missile?
 

Dawg-69

Member
Feb 23, 2021
19
20
Finland
What is that new missile? We will get that as scalp replacement or do we have any in-house plan for such missile?
Here's a couple of links about the plans:



So the program is called "Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon (FC/ASW)". Perseus is just an idea of what it could look like.

I don't know if this is so relevant for India, because there is already the Brahmos missile.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
What is that new missile? We will get that as scalp replacement or do we have any in-house plan for such missile?

Their missile is meant to replace the SCALP/Storm Shadow, Harpoon and Exocet.

We have three programs, Brahmos 1 ramjet based hypersonic, Brahmos 2 and a DRDO led project.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,856
832
France
The Rafale is maybe the best example of a program that is balanced and is going according to plan. There are always some problems and some delays, but less with Rafale than with most other fighter planes.
Honnestly, I see no problem with the Rafale road map. All is released on time, on spec, on budget as far as I know.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,856
832
France
Yes, of course, but my point is that they would like the same capability on HX. They are not getting it with the F-35 for many many many years. We know well which weapons are coming in which block. JASSM will be in Block 5. Block 4 will be also late.
block 4 late and with what kind of real perf?
Block 5 will be like all the previous ones : late, overpriced, under the spec....
Here's a couple of links about the plans:



So the program is called "Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon (FC/ASW)". Perseus is just an idea of what it could look like.

I don't know if this is so relevant for India, because there is already the Brahmos missile.
I'm quitte sure 2 missiles will be studied and built : one subsonic and highly stealth for ground missions, the other in high supersonic for anti ship mission.
 
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kor4116

Member
Feb 17, 2021
28
21
korea
Εναέρια ασπίδα στο Αιγαίο με άλλα έξι Rafale- Αποφάσεις για φρεγάτες και ελικόπτερα
Greece is planning to purchase 6 additional Rafales. Greece seems to be planning to form one complete combat squadron with 24 Rafals, adding 6 Rafals to the 332nd All Weather Squadron, currently operating the Mirage 2000BGM.
greek-rafale-demo-3-2048x1365.jpg
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,129
7,740
India
Εναέρια ασπίδα στο Αιγαίο με άλλα έξι Rafale- Αποφάσεις για φρεγάτες και ελικόπτερα
Greece is planning to purchase 6 additional Rafales. Greece seems to be planning to form one complete combat squadron with 24 Rafals, adding 6 Rafals to the 332nd All Weather Squadron, currently operating the Mirage 2000BGM.
View attachment 19716

They need to add 12 more and effectively double their capability 'cause you get 2 squadrons.