MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Ginvincible]

I wish the IAF would try to limit the number of different platforms they operate to reduce logistical burden. They should just stick to more Rafales. I do hope the IN eventually goes for the F-18SH though.

I'm biased so I prefer the F-18SH, not just because it is combat proven, but also because of its engine commonality with Tejas platforms and that it would enable better interoperability with USN. The platform has at least another 35 years of service with the USN, there are orders and upgrades planned through 2033 with a block IV on the tables afterwards. Not to mention the Growler variant would also be on the table with such a acquisition.

 

[Hydra]

With the global recession caused by the coronavirus crisis, I doubt India will have enough money for both.

Also the F-15 is in the weight class of the Su-30MKI, of which the IAF already has over 250.

How conveniently people are forgetting the recent & still on going lac standoff, the last year post balakot dog fight.

With the global recession caused by the coronavirus crisis, I doubt India will have enough money for both.

Also the F-15 is in the weight class of the Su-30MKI, of which the IAF already has over 250.

F15EX & mki are in same weight class, but definitely not in.same class.

 

[Hydra]

I wish the IAF would try to limit the number of different platforms they operate to reduce logistical burden. They should just stick to more Rafales. I do hope the IN eventually goes for the F-18SH though.

I'm biased so I prefer the F-18SH, not just because it is combat proven, but also because of its engine commonality with Tejas platforms and that it would enable better interoperability with USN. The platform has at least another 35 years of service with the USN, there are orders and upgrades planned through 2033 with a block IV on the tables afterwards. Not to mention the Growler variant would also be on the table with such a acquisition.

If thats the case IAF should stop this mmrca2 circuses.
By your above logic IN too should go for Rafale, IN is not operating any GEf414 engine equipped aircrafts. Why should IN brothers about engine commonality with aplatform.operated by some other force?

 

[Ginvincible]

If thats the case IAF should stop this mmrca2 circuses.
By your above logic IN too should go for Rafale, IN is not operating any GEf414 engine equipped aircrafts. Why should IN brothers about engine commonality with aplatform.operated by some other force?

Personally I think the IAF should have went with F-18SH in the first place, but what's done is done. Perhaps if IAF is content with only 36 Rafales for special missions/Nuclear delivery, an argument could be made for the F-18H... but I doubt it. I see MMRCA2 and related dealings as the usual dog and pony show antics that are part of Indian arms acquisitions. I think the IAF will ultimately settle on more Rafales, likely through batch G2G orders.

But the plan for the IN is to eventually induct more domestic fighters based on the Tejas platform/experiences with it right? The designs I see (TEDBF/Mk2/ORCA) all seem to be pointing towards GEF414 integration since Kaveri is not expected to be prepared in time. With Mig-29K being retired in the 2030s it would be better to streamline logistics with that in mind. This is especially true considering the IN gets less budget versus the other branches and will struggle to maintain more diverse platforms.

In the near to mid future, the IN will be the primary arm India uses to cooperate with the Quad powers, so relying on US tech in that domain shouldn't be frowned upon and should be encouraged.

 

[Lolwa]

There is the third option in future if this deal doesn't get through. India might go for F35 altogether as well theoretically speaking. Nothing can be ruled out when it comes to Indian babudom and procurement saga.

The f 35 can only be bought for the navy. And f35 is still in IOC so still not ready. But a couple of f35b/c in the navy could really change the game. U.S.A won't sell it to the IAF because of the s400. But IN is still open...

 

[randomradio]

There is the third option in future if this deal doesn't get through. India might go for F35 altogether as well theoretically speaking. Nothing can be ruled out when it comes to Indian babudom and procurement saga.

The IAF won't touch the current version of the F-35 even with a barge pole. The reason is TWR. It will put us back 20 years in terms of performance, even if all other aspects of the jet are good. The issue for us is hot and high performance requirements are far too stringent. Compare with the AMCA's specs to get an idea, it's really high.

If the IAF is to consider the F-35, the jet will have to come with a much more advanced engine with much higher thrust. That's expected to happen in 2035. If we are still importing jets at the time, then you can expect the F-35 to become a contender only after 2040, to replace the MKI. But history will repeat, and the F-35 will end up competing with the FCAS and Tempest by then. Same sort of problem that the F-16 faces with the Typhoon and Rafale today, obsolescence.

Will IAF test the F/15 EX against Rafale ? That would be fun.

As DACT, unlikely. Only paper and technical evaluations. So the most exciting event will be if the F-15EX makes the shortlist.

 

[Nikhil]

The IAF won't touch the current version of the F-35 even with a barge pole. The reason is TWR. It will put us back 20 years in terms of performance, even if all other aspects of the jet are good. The issue for us is hot and high performance requirements are far too stringent. Compare with the AMCA's specs to get an idea, it's really high.

If the IAF is to consider the F-35, the jet will have to come with a much more advanced engine with much higher thrust. That's expected to happen in 2035. If we are still importing jets at the time, then you can expect the F-35 to become a contender only after 2040, to replace the MKI. But history will repeat, and the F-35 will end up competing with the FCAS and Tempest by then. Same sort of problem that the F-16 faces with the Typhoon and Rafale today, obsolescence.


As DACT, unlikely. Only paper and technical evaluations. So the most exciting event will be if the F-15EX makes the shortlist.

The amount of rubbish you post is mind boggling....i am banned from another thread... where you were claiming Irbis-E range to be 400km which is nothing but pure fantasy. You are again posting rubbish here. F 35 thrust is more than adequate for what it does. It's the best plane out there....far advance than rafale. I think you have some problem with American products. You bring it every time to degrade them for some reason. Do not let your own prejudice cloud your judgement.

 

[randomradio]

The amount of rubbish you post is mind boggling....i am banned from another thread... where you were claiming Irbis-E range to be 400km which is nothing but pure fantasy. You are again posting rubbish here. F 35 thrust is more than adequate for what it does. It's the best plane out there....far advance than rafale. I think you have some problem with American products. You bring it every time to degrade them for some reason. Do not let your own prejudice cloud your judgement.

 

[RISING SUN]

The IAF won't touch the current version of the F-35 even with a barge pole. The reason is TWR. It will put us back 20 years in terms of performance, even if all other aspects of the jet are good. The issue for us is hot and high performance requirements are far too stringent. Compare with the AMCA's specs to get an idea, it's really high.

If the IAF is to consider the F-35, the jet will have to come with a much more advanced engine with much higher thrust. That's expected to happen in 2035. If we are still importing jets at the time, then you can expect the F-35 to become a contender only after 2040, to replace the MKI. But history will repeat, and the F-35 will end up competing with the FCAS and Tempest by then. Same sort of problem that the F-16 faces with the Typhoon and Rafale today, obsolescence.


As DACT, unlikely. Only paper and technical evaluations. So the most exciting event will be if the F-15EX makes the shortlist.

Yeah, "The standards are very high." Only difference between current F35 and AMCA is that more than 500 F35s are built approximately till now while AMCA is meeting the drawing papers and will remain on drawing paper for quite some time. Not only AMCA but even a generation old jets remain on drawing board in Indian kitty, fact! My friend, aiming high is good, however ignoring the factual reality is not a good sign. Time to get back to real India?!? I get it, that Indians by & large prefer to write long esseys on future probability instead of focusing on what's in hand. 1 rupee in hand is more important than 1 & quarter rupees in future. Thank you.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

How conveniently people are forgetting the recent & still on going lac standoff, the last year post balakot dog fight.


F15EX & mki are in same weight class, but definitely not in.same class.

MKI unlike other jets had the bad luck of continuous production run of 2 decades without any upgrade. While the contemporaries saw upgrade every 4-5 year.

A comprehensive MLU program for MKI is needed that's it. But even today MKI is the best thing flying over skies and that of our neighbours.

The only thing which 27th March showed was
1. Lack of support Aircraft in IAF
2. Obsolete RoE

Nothing else. Rest all the talks about inferiority of missiles or that of Su30MKI is just shit talk from vested interests like the talk of Indian Army procuring light tanks.
And with S400, F35 will never be offered. Our only stealth option before 2030 is PMF. Nothing else.

 

[Nikhil]

Yeah, "The standards are very high." Only difference between current F35 and AMCA is that more than 500 F35s are built approximately till now while AMCA is meeting the drawing papers and will remain on drawing paper for quite some time. Not only AMCA but even a generation old jets remain on drawing board in Indian kitty, fact! My friend, aiming high is good, however ignoring the factual reality is not a good sign. Time to get back to real India?!? I get it, that Indians by & large prefer to write long esseys on future probability instead of focusing on what's in hand. 1 rupee in hand is more important than 1 & quarter rupees in future. Thank you.

India political class & there promoting of chamchas to power corridors have created a mess. all military higher up who are promoted are not from technical background & even if they are most of them are just hot headed sifarishi tattus loyal to ruling dispensations. Its good this govt has realise some of the mistake of past & trying to improve things. I hope more western stuff join Indian military in future. Let's induct some American plane also, i would love to see F 18 if possible in small numbers... even F 15ex will be fine. time to upgrade SU 30 also.

MKI unlike other jets had the bad luck of continuous production run of 2 decades without any upgrade. While the contemporaries saw upgrade every 4-5 year.

A comprehensive MLU program for MKI is needed that's it. But even today MKI is the best thing flying over skies and that of our neighbours.

The only thing which 27th March showed was
1. Lack of support Aircraft in IAF
2. Obsolete RoE

Nothing else. Rest all the talks about inferiority of missiles or that of Su30MKI is just shit talk from vested interests like the talk of Indian Army procuring light tanks.
And with S400, F35 will never be offered. Our only stealth option before 2030 is PMF. Nothing else.

Rafael is superior. If SU 30 go up against rafale its game over for SU 30. I hope IAF thinking of upgrading those sukhoi's.

 

[JustCurious]

MKI unlike other jets had the bad luck of continuous production run of 2 decades without any upgrade. While the contemporaries saw upgrade every 4-5 year.

A comprehensive MLU program for MKI is needed that's it. But even today MKI is the best thing flying over skies and that of our neighbors.

Absolutely, but from the scant regard that IAF pays towards this requirement, something which should have been given 1st priority, none one knows if this effort is ever taking-off or going anywhere, anytime time soon. IAF's lopsided budget allocation doesn't seems to allude towards the slightest of sincerity or any sense of urgency, in this regard.

And with S400, F35 will never be offered. Our only stealth option before 2030 is PMF. Nothing else.

Completely messed up IAF planning & entrenched complacency - waited endlessly for Rafale, for a decade and half (until we got it).
Then, settled for numbers too meagre to make a difference.
As a part compensation, if you will - Yet to lay hands on S400 - which is perhaps the best out there, but no one knows really - if that's really some sort of consolation

 

[Hydra]

The IAF won't touch the current version of the F-35 even with a barge pole. The reason is TWR. It will put us back 20 years in terms of performance, even if all other aspects of the jet are good. The issue for us is hot and high performance requirements are far too stringent. Compare with the AMCA's specs to get an idea, it's really high.

If the IAF is to consider the F-35, the jet will have to come with a much more advanced engine with much higher thrust. That's expected to happen in 2035. If we are still importing jets at the time, then you can expect the F-35 to become a contender only after 2040, to replace the MKI. But history will repeat, and the F-35 will end up competing with the FCAS and Tempest by then. Same sort of problem that the F-16 faces with the Typhoon and Rafale today, obsolescence.


As DACT, unlikely. Only paper and technical evaluations. So the most exciting event will be if the F-15EX makes the shortlist.

F35 have poor twr? Its having enough thrust

 

[Sathya]

India political class & there promoting of chamchas to power corridors have created a mess. all military higher up who are promoted are not from technical background & even if they are most of them are just hot headed sifarishi tattus loyal to ruling dispensations. Its good this govt has realise some of the mistake of past & trying to improve things. I hope more western stuff join Indian military in future. Let's induct some American plane also, i would love to see F 18 if possible in small numbers... even F 15ex will be fine. time to upgrade SU 30 also.

Rafael is superior. If SU 30 go up against rafale its game over for SU 30. I hope IAF thinking of upgrading those sukhoi's.

Number of platforms Navy is getting from USA is so high, incase of sanctions, entire Navy is going to be grounded.

Just for the sake of not putting all eggs in one basket, I would prefer Rafale Navy instead of F18. Not even F35 if offered.

If western platforms have to filled in, I would like to see French platforms gets it . And offsets for Indian Mic development.

Su 35 with production sharing of radar & engine for Su 30 mki upgrade even though is offered, Not going to be effective against Chinese.

Unless Russians are going to allow us to fill in the platform with higher 3 rd party contents including the radar & missiles , they won't stand the chance of getting orders.

Follow on Rafale is going to ordered next. Timing is only not certain.

 

[Hydra]

India political class & there promoting of chamchas to power corridors have created a mess. all military higher up who are promoted are not from technical background & even if they are most of them are just hot headed sifarishi tattus loyal to ruling dispensations. Its good this govt has realise some of the mistake of past & trying to improve things. I hope more western stuff join Indian military in future. Let's induct some American plane also, i would love to see F 18 if possible in small numbers... even F 15ex will be fine. time to upgrade SU 30 also.

Rafael is superior. If SU 30 go up against rafale its game over for SU 30. I hope IAF thinking of upgrading those sukhoi's.

Russian aviation & avionics didn't upgraded much also, hence upgrading mki is still a distant dream. And dont expect russians allowing indian industry to upgrade mki.

 

[vvabhiram]

Rafael is superior. If SU 30 go up against rafale its game over for SU 30. I hope IAF thinking of upgrading those sukhoi's.

In the past they pitted against each other in Garuda exercises. So I think IAF is well aware of potential of Rafale against Su-30

 

[Hydra]

Number of platforms Navy is getting from USA is so high, incase of sanctions, entire Navy is going to be grounded.

Just for the sake of not putting all eggs in one basket, I would prefer Rafale Navy instead of F18. Not even F35 if offered.

If western platforms have to filled in, I would like to see French platforms gets it . And offsets for Indian Mic development.

Su 35 with production sharing of radar & engine for Su 30 mki upgrade even though is offered, Not going to be effective against Chinese.

Unless Russians are going to allow us to fill in the platform with higher 3 rd party contents including the radar & missiles , they won't stand the chance of getting orders.

Follow on Rafale is going to ordered next. Timing is only not certain.

In is having difficulty in securing enough funds for to induct new surface fleet, even PN is heavily upgrading. And no rafale or f18 coming to IN.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Rafael is superior. If SU 30 go up against rafale its game over for SU 30. I hope IAF thinking of upgrading those sukhoi's.

The first time I read about plans of upgrading MKI fleet was back in 2012 I think.

It's tremendous achivement that we survive as a nation with this type of work attitude.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Absolutely, but from the scant regard that IAF pays towards this requirement, something which should have been given 1st priority, none one knows if this effort is ever taking-off or going anywhere, anytime time soon. IAF's lopsided budget allocation doesn't seems to allude towards the slightest of sincerity or any sense of urgency, in this regard.




Completely messed up IAF planning & entrenched complacency - waited endlessly for Rafale, for a decade and half (until we got it).
Then, settled for numbers too meagre to make a difference.
As a part compensation, if you will - Yet to lay hands on S400 - which is perhaps the best out there, but no one knows really - if that's really some sort of consolation

See the resources available are limited. Therefore I am not in support of any big increase in CAPEX budget. But R&D, a sure requirement.

Botched planning, zero sync between three forces, unnecessary duplication, multiple different forces for same task, unclear/obsolete Rules of Engagements, and WW2 era force structure, all lead to delays in procurements and leaks in finances.

 

[Sathya]

The first time I read about plans of upgrading MKI fleet was back in 2012 I think.

It's tremendous achivement that we survive as a nation with this type of work attitude.

Don't know what's the issue with upgradation.
We have integrated Non Russian avionics that any change now, will make it necessary for more efforts again?
Russian s are awaiting indian investment to make upgrades and sell it around world?
Upgrades Russian offer is not interesting enough?
While what we are interested is expensive and takes up long time?

With the indigenous equipment for Su 30 upgrade pictures floating in net, till when are we going to wait to upgrade?

Cut the Kamov, Ak 203- , Manpad deals substitute with Indian weapons and focus should be on Su 30 upgrade instead isn't it?