MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 21 12.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 137 79.2%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 2.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 7 4.0%

  • Total voters
    173

Lolwa

Active member
Feb 6, 2020
224
111
Delhi
Nope. Let's just say you have no clue what you are talking about.

Google CBU-105.
I know what the Cbu-105 is but it's such a weird defense for the Jaguar. Is there some problem with mirages that they can't be cleared for usage of the cbu-105?? Most western strike aircrafts can use the cbu-105 so it's not a unique capability. It's a different matter that the IAF only made the jaguars capable of using the cbu 105. But that doesn't change the fact that jaguar is a junk plane. It's underpowered to low a load carrying capacity and basically obsolete...
I find it funny how you completely skipped over the part where the "strike fighter" Rafale can supercruise.
The typhoon can supercruise too and so can the gripen and su 35 as well as fifth gen planes. It's not a unique capability in that sense.
Lol, is that why the IAF plans to operate Jaguars all the way until 2042?
When you are stuck with junk that you have manufacturing rights of its better to squeeze out its complete worth than ditching it, specially when you are stuck in an administrative setup that lacks foresight or any strategic ambition and is ignorant about its geopolitical realities. Jaguar is a shit aircraft plane and simple you can add as many electronics but maybe apart from se hypothetical anti-tank or maritime strike operations which will be most probably done by the Mirage anyway , I doubt we will ever see them do any real operations. I hope I get proven wrong but I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,137
5,518
India
I know what the Cbu-105 is but it's such a weird defense for the Jaguar. Is there some problem with mirages that they can't be cleared for usage of the cbu-105?? Most western strike aircrafts can use the cbu-105 so it's not a unique capability. It's a different matter that the IAF only made the jaguars capable of using the cbu 105. But that doesn't change the fact that jaguar is a junk plane. It's underpowered to low a load carrying capacity and basically obsolete...
Requires an American system called MCU that France won't allow on the M2000.

The typhoon can supercruise too and so can the gripen and su 35 as well as fifth gen planes. It's not a unique capability in that sense.
I've already pointed out the Typhoon can supercruise. Su-35 cannot supercruise, and when it does, it's mach 1.2 with 2 missiles, so useless. Gripen cannot supercruise with weapons. What it does is go supersonic and then shut down afterburner, so the momentum will keep it slightly above transonic for sometime, no weapons.

When you are stuck with junk that you have manufacturing rights of its better to squeeze out its complete worth than ditching it, specially when you are stuck in an administrative setup that lacks foresight or any strategic ambition and is ignorant about its geopolitical realities. Jaguar is a shit aircraft plane and simple you can add as many electronics but maybe apart from se hypothetical anti-tank or maritime strike operations which will be most probably done by the Mirage anyway , I doubt we will ever see them do any real operations. I hope I get proven wrong but I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.
More to do with, you don't know much about the Jaguar at all.

Do you know we use Jaguars also for nuclear strike?
 

Lolwa

Active member
Feb 6, 2020
224
111
Delhi
Requires an American system called MCU that France won't allow on the M2000.



I've already pointed out the Typhoon can supercruise. Su-35 cannot supercruise, and when it does, it's mach 1.2 with 2 missiles, so useless. Gripen cannot supercruise with weapons. What it does is go supersonic and then shut down afterburner, so the momentum will keep it slightly above transonic for sometime, no weapons.



More to do with, you don't know much about the Jaguar at all.

Do you know we use Jaguars also for nuclear strike?
Yup and still it doesn't make it impressive too much investment on an platform thats obsolete for all purposes...
 

Sathya

Well-Known member
Dec 2, 2017
1,942
971
India
Is there any other aircraft that has terrain mapping, following and avoidance system other than mirage 2005
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,515
598
France
Why isn't rafale overhauled like the other plane??
It was studied so as to be monitoring and repairing on line, without any overhauled.
It is why Dassault can give a 75% serviceability (and expeted more) to India.

The Mirage 2000 was always a high serviceability bird, needed far less on ground people to be checked, but Rafale is beyond.
 
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Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,515
598
France
Have French stopped supporting the Mirage 3/5 fleet yet ?
I really don't know. Absolutely not sure if Safran is always producing ATAR engine parts.... It's possible that China or Pk are producing parts themselves (thanks to 3D printers for exemple).
But you are speaking of old junk now, of a little operationnal interest.

According to this article lack of two way data link means the rafale cannot exploit the full capabilities of the meteor missile .
this news is full of bull shit, really.
 

Hydra

Active member
May 19, 2020
489
221
Mumbai
AIM260 is as for now a project.
And it is a light medium range AA missile. The range will not be the main asset of this missile. A kind of MICA in a sort....

and a slap to the F35 face !
Very little info is available about aim260, but it is so certain that it will be long ranged than aim120D.

USAF is very clear about new f15 order, its to compliment growing stealth fighter fleet. F35 have hundreds of orders from USAF itself.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,137
5,518
India
Dear random radio
How our rafales stand against chinese j20
Could you please explain in details i am in argument with my colleagues
Or do we hv that discussion already here..
Pls help
There are very little details out about the J-20, so it's difficult to comment accurately yet.

For now, the J-20 is still a WIP. It needs next gen engines, which will happen only 2-3 years from now, and by the time it hits production, enters service and become fully operational in numbers with trained pilots, it will at least be an 8-year process, which means it's going to become a real threat after 2027 or so. But this is considering their next gen engine actually measures up. It could be called the J-20C.

However, right now, the Rafale F3R has significant advantages over the J-20A and B. It's far more mature, it has advanced avionics that actually work very well, along with adequate engines and sufficiently advanced weapons. All these give it an advantage over the current version of the J-20. The next version of Rafale, the F4.2 will have a very significant electronics advantage over the J-20A/B, enough to nullify any stealth advantage the J-20 brings.

If the J-20 measures up to the expectations of the Chinese, then future versions of the J-20, like J-20C, are going to be significant threats, then it's likely that we will need a new aircraft in order to keep up with it, like the Su-57. But you can be sure that the Rafale F4.2 will be able to maintain an electronics advantage over the J-20C for many years, which is going to be very important.

The only problem for us is numbers. The Chinese already have 50 J-20As and the Chinese industry has recently claimed that they have received large orders for the J-20B. Which means, by 2025-26, they could have as many as 150+ J-20s. So we need another order of 36 Rafales, preferably F4.2, before the Chinese fleet becomes fully operational, if we are to maintain an advantage in the air. And we will need large numbers to start coming in by the time they get the J-20C.

We also need a fully networked ADGE with very advanced ground radars to support the Rafale. We already have that now, since the IAF began the process a decade ago. And we need more AWACS as well, the process for that has also begun.

Of course, it's also possible that the J-20 is not all that it's cracked up to be and even the MKI may challenge it comfortably. It's too early to tell right now.

For now, our main counters to the J-20 are Rafale F3R followed by F4.2 and the MKI MLU. Post-2025, none, some or a lot of Su-57 may join our fleet, depending on how effective the J-20 turns out to be.

These are mainly assumptions, so there's not much to say. In the end, only a war will give us the correct answer.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,515
598
France
It's being built for long range actually.
What means long range ?

See the AMRAAM fired : very few were used at a long range (ie more than 40km). The problem is always the same : you need to positively recognised your target before firing (remember the UN helo fired by a US F15 in the irak mountains after Desert storm : the pilot only see a russian brand helo, and fired at it, but it was a secret UN mission....).
And in a high intensity conflict, the higher the range is, the harder you can be sure not to fire a friend.

France is Meteor equipped, but only with few rounds. It's not without reasons.
MICA NG will have a greater NEZ than legacy MICA, but a NEZ inside the OSF optronic system range, ie 40km max.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,515
598
France
Dear random radio
How our rafales stand against chinese j20
Could you please explain in details i am in argument with my colleagues
Or do we hv that discussion already here..
Pls help
Maybe am I wrong, but I think no fully chinese fighter, as J20, was involved in a real air to air or deep strike mission.

So or they are marvellous, but no proof of that, or they are scrap. I've my idea...
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,137
5,518
India
What means long range ?

See the AMRAAM fired : very few were used at a long range (ie more than 40km). The problem is always the same : you need to positively recognised your target before firing (remember the UN helo fired by a US F15 in the irak mountains after Desert storm : the pilot only see a russian brand helo, and fired at it, but it was a secret UN mission....).
And in a high intensity conflict, the higher the range is, the harder you can be sure not to fire a friend.

France is Meteor equipped, but only with few rounds. It's not without reasons.
MICA NG will have a greater NEZ than legacy MICA, but a NEZ inside the OSF optronic system range, ie 40km max.
Long range means well over 200Km when fired at high altitude, so at least 3 times the range of the MICA. According to the Americans, the new missile will outrange the 150Km AIM-120D.

Anyway, radar tech has advanced a lot since the introduction of ESA. A Mirage 2000 probably does 105-120Km against a 3m2 target, but new radars like the Irbis-E does the same at 350Km. And due to the use of ESA, identification is far superior to the old radar. If you have a 350Km range versus an F-16 or M2000 type of target, then it makes sense to have a 200Km missile to engage such a target.

It's likely that the '260' in AIM-260 indicates the range of the missile.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,515
598
France
It's likely that the '260' in AIM-260 indicates the range of the missile.
:unsure: humm.....
" .... He also indicated the weapon would be no larger than the AIM-120 (and some marketing pics show it really smaller)

Lockheed Martin may have adopted some form of boost-coast-boost configuration for the AIM-260 motor, possibly with a higher-energy propellant than previous generations of solid motors. Even so, it remains questionable whether this would provide a similar overall performance to a Meteor-class missile. "
 

indiandragon

Member
Dec 12, 2017
48
37
india
A
@randomradio

Make sure you juice it up.
And i luv that juice 🙂
There are very little details out about the J-20, so it's difficult to comment accurately yet.

For now, the J-20 is still a WIP. It needs next gen engines, which will happen only 2-3 years from now, and by the time it hits production, enters service and become fully operational in numbers with trained pilots, it will at least be an 8-year process, which means it's going to become a real threat after 2027 or so. But this is considering their next gen engine actually measures up. It could be called the J-20C.

However, right now, the Rafale F3R has significant advantages over the J-20A and B. It's far more mature, it has advanced avionics that actually work very well, along with adequate engines and sufficiently advanced weapons. All these give it an advantage over the current version of the J-20. The next version of Rafale, the F4.2 will have a very significant electronics advantage over the J-20A/B, enough to nullify any stealth advantage the J-20 brings.

If the J-20 measures up to the expectations of the Chinese, then future versions of the J-20, like J-20C, are going to be significant threats, then it's likely that we will need a new aircraft in order to keep up with it, like the Su-57. But you can be sure that the Rafale F4.2 will be able to maintain an electronics advantage over the J-20C for many years, which is going to be very important.

The only problem for us is numbers. The Chinese already have 50 J-20As and the Chinese industry has recently claimed that they have received large orders for the J-20B. Which means, by 2025-26, they could have as many as 150+ J-20s. So we need another order of 36 Rafales, preferably F4.2, before the Chinese fleet becomes fully operational, if we are to maintain an advantage in the air. And we will need large numbers to start coming in by the time they get the J-20C.

We also need a fully networked ADGE with very advanced ground radars to support the Rafale. We already have that now, since the IAF began the process a decade ago. And we need more AWACS as well, the process for that has also begun.

Of course, it's also possible that the J-20 is not all that it's cracked up to be and even the MKI may challenge it comfortably. It's too early to tell right now.

For now, our main counters to the J-20 are Rafale F3R followed by F4.2 and the MKI MLU. Post-2025, none, some or a lot of Su-57 may join our fleet, depending on how effective the J-20 turns out to be.

These are mainly assumptions, so there's not much to say. In the end, only a war will give us the correct answer.
Thanks for the reply..
Its all started from your comparison between mki and rafale