Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

Sathya

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Though below article is about French airforce, however commonality is Mirage 2000 platform.
French Air Force successfully test fired BAT-120 GL laser-guided munition
In June 2018, a BAT-120 GL laser-guided lightweight munition prototype equipped with its guidance system was successfully fired for the first time from a French Air Force Mirage 2000D at the French defence ministry's Biscarrosse test range in Western France, Thales announced on July 30, 2018.
A Thales BAT-120 GL prototype fired from a French Air Force Mirage 200D fighter jet
(Credit: DGA)


The firing was the first opportunity to test the BAT-120 GL prototype guided by a trajectory correction system derived from the laser-guided rocket developed by Thales. The munition was launched from the aircraft and corrected its trajectory in flight as anticipated in the test protocol.

The BAT-120 GL is a lightweight (35 kg) munition that would provide forces with a highly effective precision-guided weapon ideally suited to modern conflict situations, particularly in urban environments. The key operational requirement is to reduce to a zero level the risk of collateral damage while increasing the weapon carriage capacity of combat aircraft This concept allows to take a larger number of ammunition than today with bombs from 250kg to 1000kg.

Testing of the BAT-120 GL prototype will continue shortly with a guided firing of a metric-precision munition.
French Air Force successfully test fired BAT-120 GL laser-guided munition

To make use of this weapon we need to act fast , but our speed is in IST
It will be shocking if we could intergrate this in next 5 years .

Can we have this in Jaguars & Tejas ?
 

A Person

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The BAT-120 was integrated on French Jaguars, so it should probably work "right out of the box" on Indian Jaguars as well.

On Tejas, you'd have to go through the full integration, validation, and certification deal so it'd take time and money. But it should be possible, sure, if the Indian government wanted it.
 
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Sathya

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The BAT-120 was integrated on French Jaguars, so it should probably work "right out of the box" on Indian Jaguars as well.

On Tejas, you'd have to go through the full integration, validation, and certification deal so it'd take time and money. But it should be possible, sure, if the Indian government wanted it.

How does it fit between Bae APKWS rockets & SDB in terms of capabilities, cost , role.
 

Parthu

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We are, we are keeping and also paying for the scrap. We are paying GB..

This isn't scrap. This is a spares supply. Scrap are the MiG-21s and MiG-27s we still keep operating and crash everywhere because we can't find proper spares for them anymore.

Reason why we're buying these additional Jaguars is to avoid a similar situation from arising here too. These parts will keep IAF fleet flying nicely till the time they are retired.

France is getting rid of its scrap and so it manages its waste more effectively.

Er.... No. There is a certain amount of goodwill shown here by the French. Because scrap is not actually gotten rid of. It's something that is usually sold off to companies that recycle the metals etc. Same with ships. Albeit at very very low amount....i.e. scrap prices.

So this means France actually stood to gain something by selling the old planes to a scrap dealer of some sort, but chose to give them up to IAF for free. Also we're getting engines for free from Oman.

However UK did not show this courtesy.

Nothing in this world comes free.

These 30-odd Jaguars certainly did. We did not pay a paisa. And got loads of spares we can use to keep existing HAL-built fleet in top shape. Doing so would have costed us quite a lot otherwise.
 

smestarz

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The countries which made it and used them, are already ready to scrap them and we are now going to upgrade our Jagaurs which are not really going to be useful against enemy air defences? The ERA where Jagaur was the top dog is gone, it may not be able to get into enemy air space as it could a decade ago. Jaguar might best have its use as CAS plane, but not really as deep strike plane anymore as there are now sophisticated enemy air defences and no more reliance on the useless SA-7

What is UK doing? using them? France using them? Oman?? So wonder why they are trying to scrap the plane and we are buying them?

The IAF chief would be an idiot too, just having numbers does not count, the numbers should be credible, Using more jaguars to show that we have more squadrons is really lack of very common sense. We shall become an air force of numbers which perhaps even J-10 B can over run the same way as the French were rolled over by the Germans ... in 30 days

This isn't scrap. This is a spares supply. Scrap are the MiG-21s and MiG-27s we still keep operating and crash everywhere because we can't find proper spares for them anymore.

Reason why we're buying these additional Jaguars is to avoid a similar situation from arising here too. These parts will keep IAF fleet flying nicely till the time they are retired.



Er.... No. There is a certain amount of goodwill shown here by the French. Because scrap is not actually gotten rid of. It's something that is usually sold off to companies that recycle the metals etc. Same with ships. Albeit at very very low amount....i.e. scrap prices.

So this means France actually stood to gain something by selling the old planes to a scrap dealer of some sort, but chose to give them up to IAF for free. Also we're getting engines for free from Oman.

However UK did not show this courtesy.



These 30-odd Jaguars certainly did. We did not pay a paisa. And got loads of spares we can use to keep existing HAL-built fleet in top shape. Doing so would have costed us quite a lot otherwise.
 

smestarz

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Why should be we keep 3rd gen strike planes when 5th Gen era has started, rather the 6th Gen Era will start soon

This isn't scrap. This is a spares supply. Scrap are the MiG-21s and MiG-27s we still keep operating and crash everywhere because we can't find proper spares for them anymore.

Reason why we're buying these additional Jaguars is to avoid a similar situation from arising here too. These parts will keep IAF fleet flying nicely till the time they are retired.



Er.... No. There is a certain amount of goodwill shown here by the French. Because scrap is not actually gotten rid of. It's something that is usually sold off to companies that recycle the metals etc. Same with ships. Albeit at very very low amount....i.e. scrap prices.

So this means France actually stood to gain something by selling the old planes to a scrap dealer of some sort, but chose to give them up to IAF for free. Also we're getting engines for free from Oman.

However UK did not show this courtesy.



These 30-odd Jaguars certainly did. We did not pay a paisa. And got loads of spares we can use to keep existing HAL-built fleet in top shape. Doing so would have costed us quite a lot otherwise.
 

A Person

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To preserve notional squadron strength because the Indian government doesn't have enough money to replace all its old aircraft at once.

This goes beyond just the aircraft. Flying old planes allows to keep a certain number of pilots trained and qualified.

Going from wikipedia, the IAF has 39* active fighter squadrons, spread across aircraft types like this:
MiG-21: 10 (No. 3, 4, 21, 23, 26, 32, 35, 51, 101, 108)
MiG-27: 5 (No. 10, 22, 29, 37, 222)
MiG-29: 3 (No. 28, 47, 223)
Jaguar: 6 (No. 5, 6, 14, 16, 27, 224)
Mirage 2000: 3 (No. 1, 7, 9)
Su-30: 11 (No. 2, 8, 15, 17, 20, 24, 30, 31, 102, 220, 221)
Tejas: 1 (No. 45)

* Wikipedia actually lists 42, but one was disbanded (No. 18), one is an aerobatic team (No. 52), and one was converted to a transport squadron (No. 106).

Due to attrition, the actual squadron strength is down to about 32. If you retired the MiG-21, MiG-27, and Jaguar, you'd get down to just about 16 squadrons. Climbing back up to 42, in terms of personnel, would then be very hard.
 

Parthu

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The countries which made it and used them, are already ready to scrap them and we are now going to upgrade our Jagaurs which are not really going to be useful against enemy air defences? The ERA where Jagaur was the top dog is gone, it may not be able to get into enemy air space as it could a decade ago. Jaguar might best have its use as CAS plane, but not really as deep strike plane anymore as there are now sophisticated enemy air defences and no more reliance on the useless SA-7

Believe it or not, Jaguar is currently the most survivable aircraft in IAF fleet. The tech and self-defence suites that Jaguar DARIN-III has, are things that Su-30MKI, Tejas, Mirage and MiG-29 simply do not.

Yes, its not designed with Air combat as primary emphasis, but I think you are seriously underestimating the capability of Jaguar. It is actually very agile platform and equipped with modern defences & missiles like Pythoon-5/ASRAAM, it is not to be slighted. If slighted, be ready to be surprised, like F-15s were at Red Flag.

But it will be provided fighter escort nonetheless for air cover. Nevertheless the type of low-level flight characteristics (crucial for evading air defences and sometimes evading detection itself) that Jaguar has, no other plane in our inventory has. IAF knows this.

It's also the only aircraft currently certified to launch CBU-105 SFWs, which can have incredible effects on ground targets that no normal cluster bomb can deliver.

Only Rafale is superior on all counts. But 36 Rafales (we did not, as of yet, order any more) cannot replace ~130 Jaguars and ~100 MiG-27s. So until we have adequate numbers of Rafales, IAF is justified to want to keep the Jaguar in top shape as long as possible.

What is UK doing? using them? France using them? Oman?? So wonder why they are trying to scrap the plane and we are buying them?

No they're not using them because they don't need do. They received adequate quantity of modern aircraft as replacements. IAF on the other hand is not.

Tejas nowhere near FOC.

36 Rafales not enough.

FGFA program ended (at least for now).

In this situation, IAF has 2 choices: 1) Don't get any spares, and let Jag fleet rot & crash just like the MiGs. 2) Get spares, keep fleet operational long as possible. It's a bonus that we got said spares for free (at least in case of France and Oman).

The IAF chief would be an idiot too, just having numbers does not count, the numbers should be credible, Using more jaguars to show that we have more squadrons is really lack of very common sense. We shall become an air force of numbers which perhaps even J-10 B can over run the same way as the French were rolled over by the Germans ... in 30 days

Believe what you will. IAF chief is idiot. DM is idiot. PM is idiot.

Only you are enlightened one. Anyone who doesn't see the world in same perspective as you do is an idiot. Fine.

Why should be we keep 3rd gen strike planes when 5th Gen era has started, rather the 6th Gen Era will start soon

....a 3rd gen plane which has AESA radar which your so-called 4.5 gen Wunderwaffes like Su-30MKI do not.

To preserve notional squadron strength because the Indian government doesn't have enough money to replace all its old aircraft at once.

Exactly. If IAF was provided the type and number of aircraft it desired, there would have been no need to keep old types flying.

At one hand we refuse to order sufficient number of aircraft of sufficient capability, and then blame IAF for wanting to keep older types operational.

Because if there's a war tomorrow - its the 3rd gen aircraft you have today which will do the fighting; not the 4th gen type that doesn't have FOC and cannot fire its gun, or the 5th gen type that only exists on paper.
 
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smestarz

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If war happens tomorrow, it would be the Su-30 MKI shooting down jets.
And the jaguars are those that will be shot down by the enemy in return,


Believe it or not, Jaguar is currently the most survivable aircraft in IAF fleet. The tech and self-defence suites that Jaguar DARIN-III has, are things that Su-30MKI, Tejas, Mirage and MiG-29 simply do not.

Yes, its not designed with Air combat as primary emphasis, but I think you are seriously underestimating the capability of Jaguar. It is actually very agile platform and equipped with modern defences & missiles like Pythoon-5/ASRAAM, it is not to be slighted. If slighted, be ready to be surprised, like F-15s were at Red Flag.

But it will be provided fighter escort nonetheless for air cover. Nevertheless the type of low-level flight characteristics (crucial for evading air defences and sometimes evading detection itself) that Jaguar has, no other plane in our inventory has. IAF knows this.

It's also the only aircraft currently certified to launch CBU-105 SFWs, which can have incredible effects on ground targets that no normal cluster bomb can deliver.

Only Rafale is superior on all counts. But 36 Rafales (we did not, as of yet, order any more) cannot replace ~130 Jaguars and ~100 MiG-27s. So until we have adequate numbers of Rafales, IAF is justified to want to keep the Jaguar in top shape as long as possible.



No they're not using them because they don't need do. They received adequate quantity of modern aircraft as replacements. IAF on the other hand is not.

Tejas nowhere near FOC.

36 Rafales not enough.

FGFA program ended (at least for now).

In this situation, IAF has 2 choices: 1) Don't get any spares, and let Jag fleet rot & crash just like the MiGs. 2) Get spares, keep fleet operational long as possible. It's a bonus that we got said spares for free (at least in case of France and Oman).



Believe what you will. IAF chief is idiot. DM is idiot. PM is idiot.

Only you are enlightened one. Anyone who doesn't see the world in same perspective as you do is an idiot. Fine.



....a 3rd gen plane which has AESA radar which your so-called 4.5 gen Wunderwaffes like Su-30MKI do not.



Exactly. If IAF was provided the type and number of aircraft it desired, there would have been no need to keep old types flying.

At one hand we refuse to order sufficient number of aircraft of sufficient capability, and then blame IAF for wanting to keep older types operational.

Because if there's a war tomorrow - its the 3rd gen aircraft you have today which will do the fighting; not the 4th gen type that doesn't have FOC and cannot fire its gun, or the 5th gen type that only exists on paper.
If
 

Parthu

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If war happens tomorrow, it would be the Su-30 MKI shooting down jets.
And the jaguars are those that will be shot down by the enemy in return,

Su-30MKI will unfortunately be shot down a LOT because the poor thing does not even have MAWS. In the 21st century - a jet without MAWS.

Even farking JF-17 has MAWS, but MKI doesn't. That's how obsolete & outdated that plane is.

As long as Super upgrade doesn't come, MKI is nothing but cannon fodder. Costly fodder because for every jet you need 2 pilots. Rafale is the only jet that can completely turn tide of war in the subcontinent. When it comes it will be superior to every single type of fighter aircraft deployed by PAF or PLAAF.

Rafale with reliable AESA radar, OSF+WSO and Meteor, will pretty much rule the skies around here. MKI doesn't even have many basic things you need from a fighter in this day & age.
 
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randomradio

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Su-30MKI will unfortunately be shot down a LOT because the poor thing does not even have MAWS. In the 21st century - a jet without MAWS.

Current gen MAWS have too many false alarms. We have been experimenting with Israeli dual channel IR MAWS made in collaboration with DARE for the MKI.



This is fine for now, but we need more modern systems like the DDM-NG, or whatever's on the F-35, once its development is complete. The Typhoon's active MAWS is a good option as well. The best case would be the one going into the PAK FA.

But the MKI isn't cannon fodder simply because it lacks MAWS. What's more important is a modern digital RWR along with the LWS, which the MKI does.
 

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Milspec

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Believe it or not, Jaguar is currently the most survivable aircraft in IAF fleet. The tech and self-defence suites that Jaguar DARIN-III has, are things that Su-30MKI, Tejas, Mirage and MiG-29 simply do not.

Yes, its not designed with Air combat as primary emphasis, but I think you are seriously underestimating the capability of Jaguar. It is actually very agile platform and equipped with modern defences & missiles like Pythoon-5/ASRAAM, it is not to be slighted. If slighted, be ready to be surprised, like F-15s were at Red Flag.

But it will be provided fighter escort nonetheless for air cover. Nevertheless the type of low-level flight characteristics (crucial for evading air defences and sometimes evading detection itself) that Jaguar has, no other plane in our inventory has. IAF knows this.

It's also the only aircraft currently certified to launch CBU-105 SFWs, which can have incredible effects on ground targets that no normal cluster bomb can deliver.

Only Rafale is superior on all counts. But 36 Rafales (we did not, as of yet, order any more) cannot replace ~130 Jaguars and ~100 MiG-27s. So until we have adequate numbers of Rafales, IAF is justified to want to keep the Jaguar in top shape as long as possible.



No they're not using them because they don't need do. They received adequate quantity of modern aircraft as replacements. IAF on the other hand is not.

Tejas nowhere near FOC.

36 Rafales not enough.

FGFA program ended (at least for now).

In this situation, IAF has 2 choices: 1) Don't get any spares, and let Jag fleet rot & crash just like the MiGs. 2) Get spares, keep fleet operational long as possible. It's a bonus that we got said spares for free (at least in case of France and Oman).



Believe what you will. IAF chief is idiot. DM is idiot. PM is idiot.

Only you are enlightened one. Anyone who doesn't see the world in same perspective as you do is an idiot. Fine.



....a 3rd gen plane which has AESA radar which your so-called 4.5 gen Wunderwaffes like Su-30MKI do not.



Exactly. If IAF was provided the type and number of aircraft it desired, there would have been no need to keep old types flying.

At one hand we refuse to order sufficient number of aircraft of sufficient capability, and then blame IAF for wanting to keep older types operational.

Because if there's a war tomorrow - its the 3rd gen aircraft you have today which will do the fighting; not the 4th gen type that doesn't have FOC and cannot fire its gun, or the 5th gen type that only exists on paper.
Agree with most of your post except the part where you refer to jags being Agile.

a statement like Jags being agile is akin to saying A.K Hangal is a hunk.
 

R!cK

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IAF was looking for twin seat Mirages since most of them crashed. We already paid a substantial amount to upgrade 54 of them. There isn't that much left if im not wrong. While the French are currently retiring them.

The Vajra upgrade deal was signed for 51 aircraft but unfortunately 2 Trainer units were lost after the contract was inked, dropping the fleet count to 49. France was thus requested for 2 additional trainers from their inventory since upgrade kits for 51 aircraft were already delivered by DA to HAL. These 2 units will help us complete the fleet of 51 upgraded aircraft as originally planned. France is expected to charge us only £1 M per aircraft to bring these units to serviceable condition and they will thereafter undergo upgrade by HAL in India.

Good Day!
 
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