You cant just double capacity by adding two more engines.
Thats a complete redesign of wing. Then, It's a physically smaller aircraft. Where do you keep additional stuff?.Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) for IAF
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Thats a complete redesign of wing. Then, It's a physically smaller aircraft. Where do you keep additional stuff?.
This program should not be about what is "cheap".
It should be about determining the best platform that suits our requirements and provides the most long-term industrial benefits. These are decade-long or longer production runs.
Airbus C-295 acquisition is a good example. It fulfils both objectives. Its possible that in the long run only Indian production line will be viable. We will be totally integrated with their supply chain.
We should be targeting a similar or higher level of localization with the MTA.
We have a significant advantage that most countries do not have: scale. We need to capitalize on it. Evaluate all the options in the tendering process but consider a Government-to-Government (G2G) deal so that we can maximize benefits for the Indian partner.
This is what Google AI threw up in a cost comparison between Kawasaki C-2 & EMBRAER C-390 .
It's ~ 173 million USD vs ~ 83-86 million USD respectively . Add to that customisation & MII & the Japanese will be selling you Brass at the rate of Platinum.
It's ~ 173 million USD vs ~ 83-86 million USD respectively . Add to that customisation & MII & the Japanese will be selling you Brass at the rate of Platinum.
From Embraer:
Kawasaki is not in the race. If they are, the comparison should be with A400M as its closer in capability.
The IAF clearly wants faster deliveries over protracted negotiations for ToT/local production. They tried to push through a Rafale/MRFA proposal with an indigenous component of just 10% recently before it was shot down by the MoD.
The transport fleet is also in pretty bad shape with the An-32 and IL-76MD fleets well past their prime. If there are delays in the MTA program, I suspect the IAF might just order some more C-130Js to maintain
Soviets did it with An124 , why cant I dream ?You cant just double capacity by adding two more engines.
Clearly, how? If anything, transportation is one aspect that is in good shape, according to the air chief in his latest press conference.
You have to remember that they introduced three different types of transport aircraft in 10 to 15 years.
Local production always requires sufficient quantities and a timeline of a decade or more. There is no urgency for an MTA specifically.
What do you mean by this?
Delays are never because of negotiations; they are bureaucratic.
The An-32 is not planned to be phased out anytime soon. These are not like fighter assets; the airframe life can be extended significantly. They can also place follow-on orders for the C295 if they want in this category.
Same with IL-76, life extension didn’t happen only because of recent conflict.
The logical thing to do is order 50 or so more C295W and order 80 C390/C2 for now.
Replacing An32s is important. No need to mix Il76 into it. If C17 line reopens, order them, if not order Il76s in 2030
I have a general query. When these orders are signed.. whats the payment schedule like? How much in advance ? If an company has bad record for delivery timeline or after sales service.. is advanced payment not given, but jute do paise lo system. 
The things in public domain is along the lines of SOP. But it should be case by case basis for major imported like India, no?
The things in public domain is along the lines of SOP. But it should be case by case basis for major imported like India, no?
What I fail to understand is why can't the C-295 already in active production replace the An-32?
For quite a long time An-32 was the MTA for IAF. But slowly the requirements have evolved and IAF needs to have capacity to transport equipment like IFVs, Howitzers, etc, too.
You are right that C295 can replace the An32 in the capacity. But IAFs requirement is evolving.
Imagine having a fleet of 180 C295s and 20 something C17/Il76
vs
100 some C295s, 80 C390/C2 and 11 C17s.
That's what driving the decision.
The An-32 upgradation program was due for completion in 2024-25 for a contract signed in 2009 with Ukraine. It's now postponed to 2028-29. No clue if this deadline will be met as well for obvious reasons.
Why do IAF upgradation programs have such unbelievably long T/Ls is beyond me ? However it's safe to say , these transporters or at least the bulk of it can easily service the armed forces needs till ~ 2040 if not beyond. Whether it's the optimal outcome is a different argument.
If the MTA requirement is processed & an agreement signed before the next elections , we can expect the full complement to be commissioned by ~ 2040 by the IAF. Let's see how things pan out.
Why do IAF upgradation programs have such unbelievably long T/Ls is beyond me ? However it's safe to say , these transporters or at least the bulk of it can easily service the armed forces needs till ~ 2040 if not beyond. Whether it's the optimal outcome is a different argument.
If the MTA requirement is processed & an agreement signed before the next elections , we can expect the full complement to be commissioned by ~ 2040 by the IAF. Let's see how things pan out.
Rohit Vats had come up with a deeply informative thread some time back on how did the IAF zero in on the 20-30 ton requirement for a transporter which I'd linked then .
Re linking the same thread here to refresh memories .
Post in thread 'Transport Aircraft of IAF - C-130J, C-17 Globemaster, C295: Updates & Discussions' Transport Aircraft of IAF - C-130J, C-17 Globemaster, C295: Updates & Discussions
Post in thread 'Transport Aircraft of IAF - C-130J, C-17 Globemaster, C295: Updates & Discussions' Transport Aircraft of IAF - C-130J, C-17 Globemaster, C295: Updates & Discussions
This program is a reboot of the ill-fated Indo-Russian Transport Aircraft (based on the Il-214) concept of the late 2000s. Incidentally, Embraer started working on KC-390 around the same time as Ilyushin/HAL released the concept design of MTA/IRTA. So the requirement has existed for a long time.
Unfortunately, fate had other plans and the IRTA did not fructify. Now, the An-32 and Il-76 airframes are getting close to EOL with serviceability rates dropping significantly.
As Anonymous mentioned, the An-32 UPG prog has stalled. The IAF's plan to upgrade Il-76s has not taken off. In this situation, a direct purchase of KC-390 with offsets (including on the civilian side- design collab on RTA etc) will help ease the pressure on the existing fleet.
Let me explain with an example. The odds of DA agreeing to a ToT/localization percentage of 60% for the Rafale are almost zero to begin with.
With such fantastic ToT expectations, one can expect the negotiations to drag on for years without end. Bureaucratic delays are just icing on the cake.
No one is saying requirement didnt exist. This is actually second attempt after MTA program. The point is that its not critical as fighter stream or light heli crisis in army. The argument that you made that they will skip the entire lengthy negotiations to speed up the procurement process is just wrong.
Again, these are not fighter airframe. You can keep extending airframe life. Which is exactly what they are doing.
Indian Air Force draws up roadmap to outsource overhaul of 60 AN-32 aircraft to the industry - The Tribune
Vijay Mohan Chandigarh, May 10 The Indian Air Force (IAF) has drawn up a roadmap to outsource part of the repair and overhaul of airframes along with certain components of the Soviet-origin AN-32 tactical transport aircraft to the industry. The...
USAF is still operating 50+ year old C-130H airframes. Its normal.
I guess the problem in our case is that the An-32 is no longer in production, so OEM spares are hard to come by (given the current situation in Ukraine, pretty much impossible to come by).No one is saying requirement didnt exist. This is actually second attempt after MTA program. The point is that its not critical as fighter stream or light heli crisis in army. The argument that you made that they will skip the entire lengthy negotiations to speed up the procurement process is just wrong.
Again, these are not fighter airframe. You can keep extending airframe life. Which is exactly what they are doing.
Indian Air Force draws up roadmap to outsource overhaul of 60 AN-32 aircraft to the industry - The Tribune
Vijay Mohan Chandigarh, May 10 The Indian Air Force (IAF) has drawn up a roadmap to outsource part of the repair and overhaul of airframes along with certain components of the Soviet-origin AN-32 tactical transport aircraft to the industry. The...www.tribuneindia.com
USAF is still operating 50+ year old C-130H airframes. Its normal.
In case of the C-130, LM has C-130J in active production and that makes it easier for them to build spares to keep the old C-130 fleet flightworthy.
How do you explain the C-5M Super Galaxy? It is an upgrade of an older airframe from 60s and 70s.
Fighter aircraft frames endure a lot of stress, so their designed lifespan is limited. A transporter can have a life upto 50,000 flight hours. Thats 10x of an average fighter.
There was even a proposal by HAL to reengine and upgrade Avro HS 748 because there is so much airframe life left.
Tata eyes IAF's Medium Transport Aircraft contract, to set up MRO
Tata is building a new aircraft service center in Bengaluru. This facility will support the Indian Air Force's C-130J planes. It also prepares Tata to bid for a major contract to supply new medium transport aircraft. This project aims to replace older aircraft. Several global aviation companies...
The air force is yet to fully firm up its requirements, but it will need close to 80 medium aircraft to replace the ageing AN 32 fleet. No mention of Kawasaki C-2. Airbus has not disclosed its partner for the program.