Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

randomradio

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Yawn. Not really, only your fantasy world where you think the F-35's EW system is sub-par.

Possibly, except for radar range of course, but then there are still F-15s in service and the EX package adds to their capability.

So you're saying BAE made an inferior EW suite for the F-15 compared to the F-35? Yeah, dude, makes sense.

How about the F-15EX creates problems somewhere in their defence network while the F-35 quietly goes in and destroys stuff. Or the F-15EX creates the noise, leaving the F-35 passive. Complimentary/complimentary.

Er... That's exactly what the F-35 hopes to avoid, aka, alerting the enemy of your presence before SEAD/DEAD. This is something even Hostage mentions. The entire plan is to go in undetected, kill and run away before the enemy can react. The F-15 informing the enemy of intent is not complementary unless stealth doesn't work against the threat. But if stealth doesn't work against the target, then you have the F-15's and F-35's EW suites complementing each other, one working actively with additional capabilities, the other working passively because it lacks some of those active features.
 

BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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So you're saying BAE made an inferior EW suite for the F-15 compared to the F-35? Yeah, dude, makes sense.



Er... That's exactly what the F-35 hopes to avoid, aka, alerting the enemy of your presence before SEAD/DEAD. This is something even Hostage mentions. The entire plan is to go in undetected, kill and run away before the enemy can react. The F-15 informing the enemy of intent is not complementary unless stealth doesn't work against the threat. But if stealth doesn't work against the target, then you have the F-15's and F-35's EW suites complementing each other, one working actively with additional capabilities, the other working passively because it lacks some of those active features.
I'm saying they probably do similar things.

Ever heard of a diversion? Before the Gulf War ground war in 1991, the USN pounded the Iraqi shores with two Iowa Class battleships. There was no amphibious assault, it was just to create a diversion.

The US have the F-35 and F-15EX, it would be fncking stupid to bring them both to a training exercise to practice how not to use them together wouldn't it? So all using them together in practice means is that the USAF is not fncking stupid...

....You understand?

1627932303986.png
 
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AbRaj

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So you're saying BAE made an inferior EW suite for the F-15 compared to the F-35? Yeah, dude, makes sense.



Er... That's exactly what the F-35 hopes to avoid, aka, alerting the enemy of your presence before SEAD/DEAD. This is something even Hostage mentions. The entire plan is to go in undetected, kill and run away before the enemy can react. The F-15 informing the enemy of intent is not complementary unless stealth doesn't work against the threat. But if stealth doesn't work against the target, then you have the F-15's and F-35's EW suites complementing each other, one working actively with additional capabilities, the other working passively because it lacks some of those active features.
Think of it as how Snipers use light bulb to hide behind the bright light.
 

randomradio

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I'm saying they probably do similar things.

Ever heard of a diversion? Before the Gulf War ground war in 1991, the USN pounded the Iraqi shores with two Iowa Class battleships. There was no amphibious assault, it was just to create a diversion.

The US have the F-35 and F-15EX, it would be fncking stupid to bring them both to a training exercise to practice how not to use them together wouldn't it? So all using them together in practice means is that the USAF is not fncking stupid...

....You understand?

View attachment 20435

If the F-35 and F-15 have identical EW capabilities, then the F-15 wouldn't be used for important missions at all. Then the USAF wouldn't have called it complementary. They would have simply said it's more of the same.
 

Innominate

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I'm saying they probably do similar things.

Ever heard of a diversion? Before the Gulf War ground war in 1991, the USN pounded the Iraqi shores with two Iowa Class battleships. There was no amphibious assault, it was just to create a diversion.

The US have the F-35 and F-15EX, it would be fncking stupid to bring them both to a training exercise to practice how not to use them together wouldn't it? So all using them together in practice means is that the USAF is not fncking stupid...

....You understand?

View attachment 20435
This is like the same stupid argument that likely many folks in here have made before that because the USAF will use the F-22 as air escort for the F-35 that somehow the F-35's air to air capability is not that good. How much of a tard do you have to be to come to that conclusion? USAF being the only military branch in the world that flies the F-22 has the option to use their fighters this way.

They purposely ignore what F-35 pilots say about its air to air capability and that F-35's have been used in Alaska and Norway to intercept Russian aircraft.
 
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randomradio

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Think of it as how Snipers use light bulb to hide behind the bright light.

That's how it's done with 4th get jets. One emits, the other doesn't, but the enemy knows what's happening.

But when it comes to 5th gen, the enemy knows someone attacked after he is dead.
 

Innominate

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If the F-35 and F-15 have identical EW capabilities, then the F-15 wouldn't be used for important missions at all. Then the USAF wouldn't have called it complementary. They would have simply said it's more of the same.
Get this through your head... F-35s are able to hide a flight of friendly F-16s from 8 enemy F-16s while jamming those 8 F-16 radars while hiding their own EM location while the F-15EX cannot. Now F-15EX can hide F-22s and F-35s to get them closer to their AO without them using their own EW but hiding stealth fighters is not that difficult unlike hiding 4th gen fighters.
 

_Anonymous_

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Now F-15EX can hide F-22s and F-35s to get them closer to their AO without them using their own EW but hiding stealth fighters is not that difficult unlike hiding 4th gen fighters.
A point of order TEEHEE . If the F-15 as per your narrative can hide the F-22s & F-35s , doesn't that qualify the F-15s as stealth fighters ? In which case why did you ever spend all those billions on the JSF program ?
 

randomradio

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Get this through your head... F-35s are able to hide a flight of friendly F-16s from 8 enemy F-16s while jamming those 8 F-16 radars while hiding their own EM location while the F-15EX cannot. Now F-15EX can hide F-22s and F-35s to get them closer to their AO without them using their own EW but hiding stealth fighters is not that difficult unlike hiding 4th gen fighters.

That's the point of jamming.

But when you jam, you also tell the enemy that you are there, which defeats the purpose of stealth in the first place. So wy have aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 in the first place. :rolleyes:

a cautious, unobtrusive, and secretive way of moving or proceeding intended to avoid detection

Basic English.
 

Innominate

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That's the point of jamming.

But when you jam, you also tell the enemy that you are there, which defeats the purpose of stealth in the first place. So wy have aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 in the first place. :rolleyes:

a cautious, unobtrusive, and secretive way of moving or proceeding intended to avoid detection

Basic English.

'What makes F-35 really potent EW system is combination of stealth and SA. They can basically go close to enemy radars while friendly 4th gen aircraft follow them. So distance to radar from jammer is short, but distance from radar to targets is long (called stand-in jamming). This will also keep the jamming power very low and will make it very difficult to for enemy to detect the jamming. Especially so since F-35 can direct very tight jamming beams towards enemy in the frequency band where AN/APG-81 operates.

This is real big difference between legacy support jamming which has pretty much always been done with jamming aircraft standing well back to keep them away from enemy systems (stand-off jamming). This has required a lot of power which is easily detectable by enemy.'

Northern Edge 21 F-15EX were shot down "outside visual range" that is the difference between the F-35s EW and F-15EX.
 

AbRaj

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That's how it's done with 4th get jets. One emits, the other doesn't, but the enemy knows what's happening.

But when it comes to 5th gen, the enemy knows someone attacked after he is dead.
Not if the enemy is using night vision for surveillance. There are radars available to detect LO jets.
All I’m saying that it’s possible.
 

RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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'What makes F-35 really potent EW system is combination of stealth and SA. They can basically go close to enemy radars while friendly 4th gen aircraft follow them. So distance to radar from jammer is short, but distance from radar to targets is long (called stand-in jamming). This will also keep the jamming power very low and will make it very difficult to for enemy to detect the jamming. Especially so since F-35 can direct very tight jamming beams towards enemy in the frequency band where AN/APG-81 operates.

This is real big difference between legacy support jamming which has pretty much always been done with jamming aircraft standing well back to keep them away from enemy systems (stand-off jamming). This has required a lot of power which is easily detectable by enemy.'

Northern Edge 21 F-15EX were shot down "outside visual range" that is the difference between the F-35s EW and F-15EX.
F22 and F35 both can venture closer to a heavily defended target due to their stealth compared to non-stealth jets, even F15, 16, 18 etc included. With decent jamming from friendly jets, F22 and F35 can go much further than what stealth could allow them to without engaging their jamming pods/integrated instruments, hence target will not have the idea that F35/22 are much more closer to them than the expected close range of stealth jets, hence it was called complementary. Now when it comes to non-stealth jets like F15EX, these jets being non stealthy can get detected from some distance, however jamming will allowing them to go much closer, though not as closer as a stealth jet could go with jamming help. Hence F15EX is called complementary to F35/22 and not vice versa.
 

randomradio

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'What makes F-35 really potent EW system is combination of stealth and SA. They can basically go close to enemy radars while friendly 4th gen aircraft follow them.

Er... no. It's all about not having 4th gen jets anywhere near an F-35. If the US did not have financial trouble, the plan was to actually replace all 4th gen jets with only 5th gen jets. The F-15EX is simply an afterthought since the USAF cannot afford only F-35s.
 

randomradio

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F22 and F35 both can venture closer to a heavily defended target due to their stealth compared to non-stealth jets, even F15, 16, 18 etc included. With decent jamming from friendly jets, F22 and F35 can go much further than what stealth could allow them to without engaging their jamming pods/integrated instruments, hence target will not have the idea that F35/22 are much more closer to them than the expected close range of stealth jets, hence it was called complementary. Now when it comes to non-stealth jets like F15EX, these jets being non stealthy can get detected from some distance, however jamming will allowing them to go much closer, though not as closer as a stealth jet could go with jamming help. Hence F15EX is called complementary to F35/22 and not vice versa.

The F-35 performs EA in two ways, one as a standoff jammer from far away using its radar, like the Growler, the other is to defend itself from missiles and acquisition radars "after" it has been detected and engaged, like any self-protection suite, using its towed decoy. In case the F-35 has not been detected, then it doesn't make sense for the aircraft to use EA at all. So its EW capability has been designed keeping in mind that stealth is its primary method of defeating threats.

Otoh, the F-15EX exclusively uses EW to protect itself from beginning to the end. So it will naturally have far more EA capabilities and options than the F-35, similar to Rafale+SPECTRA combo.

An aerodynamically compromised stealth jet exclusively using EA to defeat threats would be the most stupid design in the world, a 4th gen jet with RO and even stealth pods would be a better option since it wouldn't have compromised aerodynamics getting there. This is something they do not get at all.
 

randomradio

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On a different topic, since the other one's obviously become annoying, something to think about when it comes to the radar when comapred to the Rafale.

The Rafale's radar diameter is said to be less than 600mm while the F-35's is 800mm. And the number of TRMs for both is 1000-1100 and 1600. Some reports says 1200-1400, but that's unlikely to be true considering the F-22's 900mm radar has 2000. Makes sense to have 400 less than 600-800 less in comparison on the F-35.

Assuming the Rafale's radar is 575mm and has 1000 TRMs, then on an 800mm radar, using RBE-2 AESA's TRMs, we get nearly 2000 TRMs. And in case the Rafale's radar has an impressive 1100 TRMs, although unlikely, but in theory, we can say the radar will have 2100+ TRMs. And at the MKI's scale, we get 2700+ and 3000+ TRMs.

If we assume the Rafale's radar is 600mm, then with 1000 and 1100 TRMs, for 800mm we get 1777 and 1955, and for 960mm we get 2500 and 2800+.

This clearly implies the Rafale's radar uses far more advanced TRMs, which gives it a greater number on any given size compared to American TRMs used on the F-35 by anywhere between 10 and 20%. What it means is the French TRMs are much more tightly packed, which implies a smaller beamwidth, which is good, since on AESAs, beamwidth is determined by the spacing between the TRMs. This give the radar greater range and resolution in comparison to a radar of similar size using American TRMs.

There are a few other interesting things we can surmise based on open source info. We know that the RBE-2 AESA doubles the detection range over its PESA cousin, which gives 140Km for a 3m2 target. So the AESA's range is theoretically 280Km for a 3m2 target, or 212 Km for a 1m2 target. And through American releases, we know that the F-22's radar has a range of 250Km against a 1m2 target. So, even with a much smaller radar, the Rafale's radar is competitive with the F-22's radar even though it's less than twice the size, primarily due to the technological differences in the TRMs, and the obvious superior system design, like cooling and packaging.

The F-22's radar was supposed to get an upgrade with new GaAs TRMs that could push its range to 400Km against a 1m2 target, but it appears the Americans have decided to funnel money towards a more advanced GaN based TRMs for the F-22's MLU. However this implies the F-35 uses much more advanced TRMs than the F-22 uses, which is actually well known, hence it should easily be able to outrange the F-22 in radar performance even with a slightly smaller 800mm radar. The superior packaging, cooling and processing should also help.

However, even though the Rafale's radar has superior TRMs and system design, the fact is that the F-35's radar is simply bigger and has more TRMs, which gives it a much higher range. The F-35's radar could in fact be as capable as the Irbis-E when it comes to range performance. And using techniques like linear frequency modulation or phase coding, it should be able to even exceed the Irbis-E's already impressive range performance by a significant margin.

So, when it comes to range performance, the Rafale has fallen victim to its own small form factor. In fact, this is why even the Chinese jets with larger radars will beat Rafale's radar range even while using older tech, never mind GaN.

The point I'm trying to make is since we are making the Rafale's TRMs in India, it would be prudent to see if we can make our own upscaled radar for the MKI, in case we are still stuck with GaAs. The MKI is not constrained by a small form factor, so the system packaging doesn't have to be as severe as on the Rafale. In fact, we may be able to get higher performance out of it. The higher TRM count should be able to outmatch the Chinese AESA on their Flankers.

Any thoughts?

@vstol Jockey
 

Innominate

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Er... no. It's all about not having 4th gen jets anywhere near an F-35. If the US did not have financial trouble, the plan was to actually replace all 4th gen jets with only 5th gen jets. The F-15EX is simply an afterthought since the USAF cannot afford only F-35s.
USAF didn't want the F-15EX they wanted 72 new fighters (F-35s) per year but with delays, politics and Deputy Sec-Def and then SecDef being a former Boeing CEO the F-15EX was forced on the USAF. At the same time they cut funding to upgrade remaining F-15C's which would have extended their life beyond 2030 which now won't happen. F-15 line was closing and many democrats/special interest said no to that since the F-18E line was also closing which was going to cost many jobs and pretty much end Boeing's fighter program.

But you digress from the topic which you are good at in that the F-35 can do what the F-15EX can't and that is be able to hide a flight of 4th gen fighters, hide itself (EM) and jammed the radars of 8 "enemy" F-16's. How? It's superior offensive EW capability.
 
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Innominate

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On a different topic, since the other one's obviously become annoying, something to think about when it comes to the radar when comapred to the Rafale.

The Rafale's radar diameter is said to be less than 600mm while the F-35's is 800mm. And the number of TRMs for both is 1000-1100 and 1600. Some reports says 1200-1400, but that's unlikely to be true considering the F-22's 900mm radar has 2000. Makes sense to have 400 less than 600-800 less in comparison on the F-35.

Assuming the Rafale's radar is 575mm and has 1000 TRMs, then on an 800mm radar, using RBE-2 AESA's TRMs, we get nearly 2000 TRMs. And in case the Rafale's radar has an impressive 1100 TRMs, although unlikely, but in theory, we can say the radar will have 2100+ TRMs. And at the MKI's scale, we get 2700+ and 3000+ TRMs.

If we assume the Rafale's radar is 600mm, then with 1000 and 1100 TRMs, for 800mm we get 1777 and 1955, and for 960mm we get 2500 and 2800+.

This clearly implies the Rafale's radar uses far more advanced TRMs, which gives it a greater number on any given size compared to American TRMs used on the F-35 by anywhere between 10 and 20%. What it means is the French TRMs are much more tightly packed, which implies a smaller beamwidth, which is good, since on AESAs, beamwidth is determined by the spacing between the TRMs. This give the radar greater range and resolution in comparison to a radar of similar size using American TRMs.

There are a few other interesting things we can surmise based on open source info. We know that the RBE-2 AESA doubles the detection range over its PESA cousin, which gives 140Km for a 3m2 target. So the AESA's range is theoretically 280Km for a 3m2 target, or 212 Km for a 1m2 target. And through American releases, we know that the F-22's radar has a range of 250Km against a 1m2 target. So, even with a much smaller radar, the Rafale's radar is competitive with the F-22's radar even though it's less than twice the size, primarily due to the technological differences in the TRMs, and the obvious superior system design, like cooling and packaging.

The F-22's radar was supposed to get an upgrade with new GaAs TRMs that could push its range to 400Km against a 1m2 target, but it appears the Americans have decided to funnel money towards a more advanced GaN based TRMs for the F-22's MLU. However this implies the F-35 uses much more advanced TRMs than the F-22 uses, which is actually well known, hence it should easily be able to outrange the F-22 in radar performance even with a slightly smaller 800mm radar. The superior packaging, cooling and processing should also help.

However, even though the Rafale's radar has superior TRMs and system design, the fact is that the F-35's radar is simply bigger and has more TRMs, which gives it a much higher range. The F-35's radar could in fact be as capable as the Irbis-E when it comes to range performance. And using techniques like linear frequency modulation or phase coding, it should be able to even exceed the Irbis-E's already impressive range performance by a significant margin.

So, when it comes to range performance, the Rafale has fallen victim to its own small form factor. In fact, this is why even the Chinese jets with larger radars will beat Rafale's radar range even while using older tech, never mind GaN.

The point I'm trying to make is since we are making the Rafale's TRMs in India, it would be prudent to see if we can make our own upscaled radar for the MKI, in case we are still stuck with GaAs. The MKI is not constrained by a small form factor, so the system packaging doesn't have to be as severe as on the Rafale. In fact, we may be able to get higher performance out of it. The higher TRM count should be able to outmatch the Chinese AESA on their Flankers.

Any thoughts?

@vstol Jockey

Too much assumption from youz lets stick to facts shall we?

Looks like I won't have to do much but to copy-paste what I already posted...

Rafale News: Thales AESA RBE-2 modules pattern
RBE-2AA_module_pattern.png


From recent Thales
-In a radar, an antenna is said to be «active» when it has a single subassembly for amplification of radiated power and pre-amplification of received power. This is achieved by the antenna front end, which comprises an array of several hundreds transmit/receive modules (T/R modules). By controlling each T/R module individually, the active antenna can steer the radar beam at speeds of an electronic chip.
Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar | Thales Group

"ARRAY OF SEVERAL HINDREDS"

Pics don't lie especially when it's a pic of a Rafail with open nose showing its AESA.
Count again, bub.
some 840 TR.jpg

m02012100200003.jpg

1. RB2 AESA doesn't have 1000+ T/R modules. Pics don't lie but the folks that overhype Spectra as some super duper EW do.
2. RB2 AESA is inferior to US smallest AESA APG-79.
3. RB2 AESA has no EW capability or GMT/GMTI mode It is NOT capable of performing Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground modes simultaneously.

Wow this was really quick.
 
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Lolwa

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Too much assumption from youz lets stick to facts shall we?

Looks like I won't have to do much but to copy-paste what I already posted...

Rafale News: Thales AESA RBE-2 modules pattern
View attachment 20437

From recent Thales
-In a radar, an antenna is said to be «active» when it has a single subassembly for amplification of radiated power and pre-amplification of received power. This is achieved by the antenna front end, which comprises an array of several hundreds transmit/receive modules (T/R modules). By controlling each T/R module individually, the active antenna can steer the radar beam at speeds of an electronic chip.
Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar | Thales Group

"ARRAY OF SEVERAL HINDREDS"

Pics don't lie especially when it's a pic of a Rafail with open nose showing its AESA.
Count again, bub.
View attachment 20438
View attachment 20439
1. RB2 AESA doesn't have 1000+ T/R modules. Pics don't lie but the folks that overhype Spectra as some super duper EW do.
2. RB2 AESA is inferior to US smallest AESA APG-79.
3. RB2 AESA has no EW capability or GMT/GMTI mode It is NOT capable of performing Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground modes simultaneously.

Wow this was really quick.
Isn't APG 83 the smallest aesa in U.S inventory?
From what I've read APG 79 is a dated aesa but it's quite large than most aesa's in its class. So the rbe2 might be superior technologically but it has less trm than the APG 79.