Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

_Anonymous_

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What you need other people to speak for you?
Frankly the success or lack of the 6th Gen programs launched by the Europeans are none of my concern & I extend the same consideration to the JSF as well.

Hence all those who want to defend it's reputation ought to do it. I was merely notifying them. Why are you so worked up about it unless you're labouring under the impression that only the US has proprietary rights over cutting edge state of the art technology.
 

Innominate

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As I said, If you want to regurgitate data from the internet without using your grey cells, that is completely your choice. I deal with real firmware and industrial comm protocols for a living, if someone tells me an aircraft is going to wirelessly implant Stuxnet type viruses on military equipment which at times has no PLC and can have custom controls, languages, and sensors and infect them without any real demonstration, I am going to say that is highly unlikely. If it indeed is some technology that I cannot comprehend at this point in time, I am more than open to learning something new and be amazed. Until then I will hold my position.

As far as f35, I have nothing against F35''s capabilities, It's a great plane, and I hope IAF/IN opts for a squadron or two if our development programs don't pan out.

Coming back to this virus, I would love to learn more. Please do educate me on how does a virus affects dissimilar systems.

"Coming back to this virus, I would love to learn more. Please do educate me on how does a virus affects dissimilar systems."

To me that is the amazing part too. I can't comprehend how such technology can exist as to infect a system but the General hints at it twice in two interviews and he was at the time the head of the F-35 program. The way I see it the US has technology so far advanced that I myself likely can't comprehend. Ben Rich late CEO of Skunkworks said in interview with Jim Goodall, “Jim, we have things out in the desert that are fifty (50) years beyond what you could possibly comprehend. If you have seen it on Star Wars or Star Trek, we’ve been there done that, or decided it was not worth the effort”

General Hostage head program director of F-35 hints of such capability twice then I'm willing to believe such technology exist.

Few years ago USAF made it known to the world that it has aircraft that is not the B-21, B-2 or NGAD when it flew a formation of black triangle aircraft over Texas and Kansas in broad daylight at con altitude so that everyone could see. I took it as a message to china and Russia.

hy535098b1.png


To me I don't find it hard to believe the F-35 has such capabilities especially when a USAF General that is head of F-35 program hints at it twice in interview.
 
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Innominate

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Frankly the success or lack of the 6th Gen programs launched by the Europeans are none of my concern & I extend the same consideration to the JSF as well.

Hence all those who want to defend it's reputation ought to do it. I was merely notifying them. Why are you so worked up about it unless you're labouring under the impression that only the US has proprietary rights over cutting edge state of the art technology.
Worked up? Oh please. I found it funny that you sounded like that kid in school that narcs to other students about what someone said about them.

I found it funny so congrats for getting a chuckle out of me.
also @WHOHE welcome to the forum!
:)
Danke dir.
 

Milspec

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"Coming back to this virus, I would love to learn more. Please do educate me on how does a virus affects dissimilar systems."

To me that is the amazing part too. I can't comprehend how such technology can exist as to infect a system but the General hints at it twice in two interviews and he was at the time the head of the F-35 program. The way I see it the US has technology so far advanced that I myself likely can't comprehend. Ben Rich late CEO of Skunkworks said in interview with Jim Goodall, “Jim, we have things out in the desert that are fifty (50) years beyond what you could possibly comprehend. If you have seen it on Star Wars or Star Trek, we’ve been there done that, or decided it was not worth the effort”

General Hostage head program director of F-35 hints of such capability twice then I'm willing to believe such technology exist.

Few years ago USAF made it known to the world that it has aircraft that is not the B-21, B-2 or NGAD when it flew a formation of black triangle aircraft over Texas and Kansas in broad daylight at con altitude so that everyone could see. I took it as a message to china and Russia.

View attachment 20409

To me I don't find it hard to believe the F-35 has such capabilities especially when a USAF General that is head of F-35 program hints at it twice in interview.
I thought my post was quite simply worded.
I do not care about claims without verifiable data. The good generals claim as of now just remains a claim on the basis of current logic. He can claim light sabres all I care for, once it's verifiable, we will believe it. Hope that clarifies.
 

randomradio

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Nice try. I said EW/AVIONICS not just EW. F-15EX overall avionics which include its EW is not as advanced as the F-35's overall avionics and USAF has made that known.

We have been talking about the EW suite the entire time. While the F-15's EW suite is superior to the F-35's, most of its other avionics are similar in capability anyway. What it lacks is the EODAS+IRST combo and the integration with the Israeli helmet. Being a very old design, it has its own set of limitations, but it can implement a faster upgrade process because it's much more mature.

F-35 can literally give you an E-virus ("think of stuxnet") according to General Hostage.

Something at that level requires physical access to the system.

What Hostage is referring to is something the Rafale has been doing for nearly 15+ years. By the Pentagon's own admission, they claim they are well behind others when it comes to EW.

 

AbRaj

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I'd defer to @Picdelamirand-oil & @BMD

He's taking a piss on European programs i.e the Tempest & FCAS.

Well, to all the French members out here - You were itching to get back at him. I've provided you the opening. Hope you don't let us down.
He has some valid points to mock Europeans. US is flying Stealth planes since almost a century and is quite logical that they know about stealth (active and passive) much more than any European manufacturer out there including BAE.
They have produced almost a dozen of stealth jets, bomber and recon planes and have even retired quite a few.
In comparison all Europe combined have nothing to show off as true stealth design.
BAE was in best position to do so but as usual Brits faltered before crossing the line.
Spectra in true sense in nothing but a protective electronic suite to protect itself from missile lock. Even it’s developers say so “SPECTRA (Self-Protection Equipment to Counter Threats for RAFALE Aircraft) has been jointly developed by MBDA and Thales to provide an integrated self-protection system for the new Rafale combat aircraft”.
Rest all is marketing BS.
 
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Innominate

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We have been talking about the EW suite the entire time. While the F-15's EW suite is superior to the F-35's, most of its other avionics are similar in capability anyway. What it lacks is the EODAS+IRST combo and the integration with the Israeli helmet. Being a very old design, it has its own set of limitations, but it can implement a faster upgrade process because it's much more mature.



Something at that level requires physical access to the system.

What Hostage is referring to is something the Rafale has been doing for nearly 15+ years. By the Pentagon's own admission, they claim they are well behind others when it comes to EW.

Lol. Riiight Hostage was referring what Rafail has been able to do for nearly 15 years. How about you actually read the interview with Hostage that I posted instead of making up BS. General Hostage is clear in what he hinted... F-35 has E-virus capability like a "stuxnet" kind of virus. That claim comes from the former head of the F-35 program. Whatever claims you make is irrelevant and useless.

Shooting down other planes using kinetics is only one role of the F-35. Perhaps air forces around the world are going to have to come up with a new honor other than ace to define those who fly the F-35. What should a pilot be awarded for outsmarting the best air defense systems in the world or injecting something like Stuxnet into the enemy’s command and control system? So much of what this aircraft will do has nothing to do with shooting down another pilot that we may need a new term.

-These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.

So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.

Two F-35's were able to hid a flight of 4 F-16's, themselves and jammed 8 F-16 radars acting as enemy all while not giving away their EM location.

Rafail has no capability that comes close to doing what the F-35 can do. You living in denial about the F-35s capabilities amuses me.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Realistically none of us know how good the EW is. USA has pumped 10's of billions of dollars into this. It's all classified. The bare statement we get is hey it's better than the growler and any 4.5 jet EW.

Concerning the Rafale's Radar Cross Section (RCS) we have two contradictory statements from Dassault employees. And the surer statement is the more surprising one! Both may be true and the contradiction is probably due to the very different dates on which they were made.

The first statement was made by a Dassault engineer who said that the RCS of the Rafale was between 1/10 and 1/20 of the RCS of the Mirage 2000.

This statement can be combined with that of a SAAB engineer who said of the Gripen A that its RCS was half that of a Mirage 2000 and one third that of an F-16 Block 42.

Now the RCS of the F-16 Block 42 is known because it was the result of a RCS reduction campaign that L.M. announced as being 1.2 m^2.


We deduce that the RCS of the Mirage 2000 to which SAAB refers is 0.8 m^2 and the RCS of the Rafale is 0.06 +/- 0.02 M^2.

All of this in front of the aircraft and without any payloads of course.

Is this possible? The Anglo-Saxons don't believe it, for example in the "Command" game the Rafale has the same RCS as the Typhoon of 0.47 m^2 close to the one SAAB indicates for the Gripen A (0.40).

The difference could come from SPECTRA.

The second statement is from Bruno Revellin Falcoz, Director of the Rafale programme at its launch, then Technical Director of Dassault Aviation, then Vice President of Dassault Aviation, who says in a video that the RCS of a Rafale seen from the front is comparable to that of a sparrow.

Is this possible? Nobody believes it! We are still in the orders of magnitude of the F-22, that is to say a RCS of 0.0001 m^2 let's say 0.001 to be conservative. So of course it's head-on and without any payloads.

Where could this performance come from? DEDIRA comes to mind. The main part of Dedira is "electronic". If there was any structural modification, we would know about it. Someone would have spotted it. And a Rafale in France is not easily hidden.

So if there are no structural modifications, one thinks of course of SPECTRA. This would mean that active cancellation would have been greatly improved thanks to DEDIRA.

But what about payloads?

In principle, the RCS In fact, it seems that the Rafale makes a little trip to the anechoic chamber each time a new payload is to be integrated. But as the payload have a larger RCS than a Rafale seen from the front, it is more difficult, from a processing point of view, and it requires more energy, because the return signal that we must cancel is stronger.

Just to set orders of magnitude, let's assume that the RCS of the Rafale seen from the front without processing is 0.5 m^2 and that the payload have a RCS of 5 m^2.

So the first treatment, which reduces from 0.47 to 0.06, would give a RCS of 0.6 with the payload,

And the second treatment which reduces from 0.47 to 0.001 would allow a RCS of 0.01 with payload.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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He has some valid points to mock Europeans. US is flying Stealth planes since almost a century and is quite logical that they know about stealth (active and passive) much more than any European manufacturer out there including BAE.
They have produced almost a dozen of stealth jets, bomber and recon planes and have even retired quite a few.
In comparison all Europe combined have nothing to show off as true stealth design.
BAE was in best position to do so but as usual Brits faltered before crossing the line.
Spectra in true sense in nothing but a protective electronic suite to protect itself from missile lock. Even it’s developers say so “SPECTRA (Self-Protection Equipment to Counter Threats for RAFALE Aircraft) has been jointly developed by MBDA and Thales to provide an integrated self-protection system for the new Rafale combat aircraft”.
Rest all is marketing BS.
The French have been talking about "active cancellation" or active stealth for over a decade, and at the time the Anglo-Saxons said it was impossible! But strangely enough, now everyone claims to be doing it. 😂
So who has the most experience in active stealth?
 

AbRaj

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It’s not a stealth tech anyway. At best it can reduce radar signature to a certain extent
Stealth Aircraft - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics.

It’s mainly a defensive suite to enhance survivability of the aircraft, according to its developers. It’ll work even better with stealth aircraft like F22/F35/J20 as per my understanding.

Here is wiki link


From Dassault website

SPECTRA – INTERNAL ELECTRONIC WARFARE SUITE​

Jointly developed by Thales and MBDA, the SPECTRA internal “Electronic Warfare” (EW) system is the cornerstone of the Rafale’s outstanding survivability against the latest airborne and ground threats.
It is fully integrated with other systems in the aircraft, and it provides a multi-spectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers.
The SPECTRA system carries out reliable long-range detection, identification and localisation of threats, allowing the pilot to instantly select the most effective defensive measures based on combinations of radar jamming, infrared or radar decoying and evasive manoeuvres.
The angular localisation performance of the SPECTRA sensors makes it possible to accurately locate ground threats in order to avoid them, or to target them for destruction with precision guided munitions.
The outstanding capability of SPECTRA regarding airborne threat localisation, is one of the keys of the Rafale’s superior situational awareness.
Also instrumental in SPECTRA’s performance is a threat library that can be easily defined, integrated and updated on short notice by users in their own country, and in full autonomy.
SPECTRA now includes a new generation missile warning system that offers increased detection performance against the latest threats.
Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. Rafale M on the flight deck.

NET-CENTRIC CAPABILITY​

The net-centric capability of the Rafale hinges on its open architecture, its data fusion software and its compatibility with a variety of data links, which “plug” the Rafale into the integrated battlespace.
A secure high-rate data link is provided to share data in combined air operations in real time with other aircraft in the formation, airborne and surface command and control centres, tactical air controllers or other friendly assets. The Link 16 data link is also available to those customers cleared to operate it.
As a net-centric capable asset, the Rafale can exchange images. The Rover (“Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receiver”) is an element of this capability which allows aircrews and forward air controllers on the ground to share videos or images of the target. It helps prevent blue-on-blue incidents and collateral damage, a decisive advantage in peacekeeping operations.
The Rafale’s interoperability, as part of a multinational operation, has been demonstrated on countless occasions, and Link 16 as well as non-NATO solutions can be provided to meet various customers’ requirements.

See even Dassault don’t claim it to be a stealth tech but and self protection and EW suite.
Americans have be using DRFM which is very similar to SPECTRA have as one of its components.
 
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BMD

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It wouldn't work the way you say based on how the USAF used it in their exercise. The F-35 simply couldn't use some functions that the F-15EX could. Hence complementary.

Simply put, when the F-35 is around, the F-15EX's EW capability should be completely useless, going by your metric, but that's not so, as per the US. So the F-15 does things the F-35 does not.
Like what? It's also very likely that he said, "complimentary," which was then written as "complementary". The only thing it has is a better radar, which applies to both detection and jamming.

2 aircraft can deal with more than one even with the same capabilities.
 

john0496

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Lol. Riiight Hostage was referring what Rafail has been able to do for nearly 15 years. How about you actually read the interview with Hostage that I posted instead of making up BS. General Hostage is clear in what he hinted... F-35 has E-virus capability like a "stuxnet" kind of virus. That claim comes from the former head of the F-35 program. Whatever claims you make is irrelevant and useless.

Shooting down other planes using kinetics is only one role of the F-35. Perhaps air forces around the world are going to have to come up with a new honor other than ace to define those who fly the F-35. What should a pilot be awarded for outsmarting the best air defense systems in the world or injecting something like Stuxnet into the enemy’s command and control system? So much of what this aircraft will do has nothing to do with shooting down another pilot that we may need a new term.

-These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.

So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.

Two F-35's were able to hid a flight of 4 F-16's, themselves and jammed 8 F-16 radars acting as enemy all while not giving away their EM location.

Rafail has no capability that comes close to doing what the F-35 can do. You living in denial about the F-35s capabilities amuses me.
Russians (and Egyptians) seem to think spectra is quite working....

A Russian source:

Истребитель Rafale вывел из строя радар российского Су-35


Fighter Rafale disabled the radar of the Russian Su-35​

The radar of the Russian Su-35 was disabled by a powerful electronic warfare system.

The invulnerability of the Russian Su-35 fighter was called into question after it became known that in a training battle, the Egyptian Air Force Rafale fighter, as a result of the use of an electronic suppression complex, was able to disable the radar station of the Russian combat aircraft, in fact, blinding it. As a result, the training battle was lost by the Su-35 fighter.

“During the training battles, the Su-35 tried to attack the Rafale, playing the role of the“ aggressor ”. With the help of the Thales Spectra system of protection and prevention of enemy fire control (electronic warfare equipment - electronic warfare), the French fighter still managed to drown out the phased antenna array (PAR) of the Su-35 radar. After disabling it, the Russian fighter was unable to aim the weapon at the enemy and was easily knocked out by Rafal , ”the Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper reports.

A little earlier, the news agency Avia.pro reported that, as part of a training battle, the Russian Su-35 fighter lost to the French Rafale fighter, although it was in the attack, which caused a number of doubts about the effectiveness of this combat aircraft.
Exactly how many series of training battles were fought between the Su-35 and Rafale fighters is still unknown.

Подробнее на: Российский Су-35 впервые проиграл в учебном бою французскому истребителю Rafale

Is it a message for China?
 

randomradio

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Like what? It's also very likely that he said, "complimentary," which was then written as "complementary". The only thing it has is a better radar, which applies to both detection and jamming.

BAE claiming the EPAWSS is a significant upgrade over DEWS is enough.

2 aircraft can deal with more than one even with the same capabilities.

With similar suites, 2 F-35s are definitely better than one each of F-35 and F-15.

Regardless, the entire point of the F-35 is to do its mission silently, without informing the enemy of its presence, which the F-15 isn't good at. Even then the USAF claims the capabilities of the F-15's EW suite is complementary. That's a pretty big deal considering the USAF, in this case, prefers the F-15's EW suite over the F-35's stealth to a certain extent.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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F-35A Jet Price To Rise, But It’s Sustainment Costs That Could Bleed Air Force Budget Dry


The issues with F-35 operating costs have become widely acknowledged by 2021, raising the possibility of a decrease in the Air Force’s total buy.

Some Air Force brass, formerly known for mounting a full-court press defending the F-35 program, have begun suggesting the jet may be too expensive to replace all of the service’s older F-16 jets.

The Air Force’s funding ‘wish list’ in 2021 notably did not include additional F-35s as it has in the past, while comments regarding a recent wargame derided the usefulness of F-35s in a campaign to defend Taiwan. Some officials, fearing the F-35 lacks the range and air-to-air combat specialization desired in the Pacific, favor moving on sooner to a new fighter design instead.

The F-35’s critics and supporters have diverging views on how to fix the operating cost problem. The GAO report argues, “[Department of Defense’s] inability to arrest the increases in F-35 sustainment costs and make progress towards the services’ established affordability constraints is due in part to the department’s not having a clear, strategic approach across the F-35 program.”

And the GAO maintains that approach should be “…to reduce the total number of F-35A aircraft they plan to purchase, or to reduce the aircraft’s planned flying hours. We recommended, among other things, that Congress consider making future F-35 acquisitions contingent on progress reducing sustainment costs.”

The report also suggests having military personnel undertake more maintenance tasks currently performed by contractors.

But Lockheed-Martin unsurprisingly argues in favor of the opposite, claiming if it’s awarded an exclusive five-year Performance-Based Logistics (PBL) contract, it could reduce F-35 flight hour costs to around $25,000. Such a contract would theoretically be based on a fixed fee.

Officials in the Pentagon have expressed skepticism that target is achievable, and have complained that Lockheed retains too much proprietary control over the aircraft and its upkeep. Still, the Air Force may end up agreeing to a shorter-duration ‘skinny’ PBL with Lockheed.

There is no question the Pentagon and foreign clients will procure hundreds more F-35s in the next few decades—rather at stake is how many hundreds in the longer term. A small price increase is unlikely to put a big dent in F-35 sales, but unsustainable sustainment costs might if they cannot be significantly reduced in the next few years.
 

Innominate

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Russians (and Egyptians) seem to think spectra is quite working....
Nothing impressive what it did. An f-16 block 50+ carrying a AN/ALQ-131(v) jamming pod could do the same thing especially on a downgraded SU-35 that Egypt flies. AN/ALQ-131(v) is about the same size as the Rafail spectra antenna it carries in its tail.

m02019073000007.jpg

-The ALQ-131 Electronic Attack (EA), also known as AN/ALQ-131(V), is a modernized version of the United States Air Force AN/ALQ-131 jammer pod. The US Air Force awarded Northrop Grumman a 27-month contract in April 2012 for the development and manufacturing of this upgraded pod that will serve to protect fighter, attack and transport aircraft during combat operations. A key electronic warfare capability of the new pod is the digital radio frequency memory which is designed to make 4th generation aircraft survivable in a 5th generation air warfare scenario. The US Air Force plans to field the new ALQ-131 EA pod in support of the A-10A/C, C-130, F-15 and F-16 aircraft. The new electronic warfare pod is expected to achieve initial operational capability (IOC) by 2014. The US Air Force is procuring the new pod under the Electronic Attack Pod Upgrade Program (EAPUP).

What would impress me and the military aviation community is if the Rafale was able to hide 2-4 F-16s from a flight of 8 SU-35s while jamming the 8 SU-35s radar all while not giving away its EM location.
 
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RISING SUN

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They have produced almost a dozen of stealth jets, bomber and recon planes and have even retired quite a few.
In comparison all Europe combined have nothing to show off as true stealth design.
We discuss about the stealth jets that we know of! Those that we don't know or understand, leave that stuff for 50 years catching up for the rest of world. Many people including Indians do get butt hurt off is just say pure fun!
 

BMD

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BAE claiming the EPAWSS is a significant upgrade over DEWS is enough.



With similar suites, 2 F-35s are definitely better than one each of F-35 and F-15.

Regardless, the entire point of the F-35 is to do its mission silently, without informing the enemy of its presence, which the F-15 isn't good at. Even then the USAF claims the capabilities of the F-15's EW suite is complementary. That's a pretty big deal considering the USAF, in this case, prefers the F-15's EW suite over the F-35's stealth to a certain extent.
Yawn. Not really, only your fantasy world where you think the F-35's EW system is sub-par.

Possibly, except for radar range of course, but then there are still F-15s in service and the EX package adds to their capability.

How about the F-15EX creates problems somewhere in their defence network while the F-35 quietly goes in and destroys stuff. Or the F-15EX creates the noise, leaving the F-35 passive. Complimentary/complimentary.