Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Remember Nevatim hit by iranian missiles ? You dont't have to fight F-35 in air you just have to wait them grounded since they are not able to fly more than 15 hours per month.

This is what happens when French guys, who know nothing about air forces, say silly stuff, They look foolish,

What don't you understand about a peace time budget? We have an ongoing Peace time training budget of 12000 hours a year, Or around your 15 hours, It doesn't mean in a conflict it can't fly more and the budget increased, How long do we want our fleet to last?
The Hornet fleet lasted 37 years and would have had a similar flight hour, The F-35 will last even longer
 
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Just for fun since India has nothing to wait from the F-35 :

f-35A in 2023 : 195 hours for 8,,24 Million : 41000 euros per hours for the MCO
F-35B in 2023 : 184 hours for 9,45 million : 51000 euros
F-35C in 2023 : 240 hours for 13,15 million : 54000 euros


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because the thread
The thread was started by a Frenchman and is used by the French, to promote the Rafale against the F-35
I just try to insert some reality,

I have said in my opinion, partnering with the UK and JP, JP offered India to join on their 6th gen, would be what I would choose
 

The Pentagon’s F-35 Disaster Keeps Getting Worse

The plane’s cost per flight hour exceeds $40,000, more than double that of its alternatives—leading to mission-capable rates hovering below targets for six consecutive years.

Beneath the glossy marketing campaign that Lockheed Martin has crafted for their long-running F-35 Lightning II multirole fifth-generation warplane lies a program plagued by astronomical costs, persistent technical flaws, and performance compromises. These issues render the F-35 overrated—and far too expensive for what it delivers.

That’s why claims that the F-35s and F-22s (the far better of the two birds) will be used to fight any potential war against the People’s Republic of China elicit snickers rather than fear from the rulers in Beijing. They know that the F-35 is totally overrated.

With a projected lifetime cost exceeding $2 trillion, the F-35 exemplifies how unchecked ambition, bureaucratic inertia, and corporate interests can balloon into a fiscal hole, diverting resources from more practical defense solutions.

What to Know About the F-35 Lightning II​

Designed as an ambitious one-size-fits-all project that would keep the United States and a select grouping of its allies ahead of the competition, the plane has largely failed to deliver on its great promises.

The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program was initiated in the early 2000s, and was intended to replace America’s aging fleet of fourth-generation warplanes with a single multirole platform. Early estimates pegged the total cost at around $200 billion. Reality has proven far harsher. By 2023, the US Government Accountability Office (GAO), a federal government watchdog, reported that the program would cost nearly $1.7 trillion over its lifetime, encompassing acquisition, operations, and sustainment. More recent analyses push this figure beyond the $2 trillion mark, factoring in ongoing delays and upgrades. This escalation stems from chronic cost overruns, with development alone ballooning due to concurrent design and testing—a risky “fly before you buy” approach that led to retrofits and redesigns, benefiting defense contractors at the expense of taxpayers and national security.

Attempting to create one jet for three services—with variants for vertical takeoff, carrier operations, and conventional use—inevitably resulted in inevitable compromises and delays. The 2023 GAO report further detailed how the program has faced at least 12 accidents since 2018, exacerbating the already disconcerting reliability issues and gross project delays.

In 2024, the F-35 reached full-rate production, a key benchmark for any major defense program. Yet even at that point, the “fly before you buy” approach was proving itself to be demonstrably weaker than the old way the Pentagon used to do business. Just as the F-35 was reaching full-rate production last year, there were already major modernization efforts underway, such as engine upgrades and software enhancements that continued driving up costs.

These overruns not only strained America’s budget, but they also impacted international partners—as seen in Canada’s auditor general reporting a staggering $8 billion overrun for its F-35 acquisition in 2025. There is now serious speculation that Ottawa may abandon the F-35 altogether in favor of a 4.5-generation European warplane.

Of course, at least some of the blame for this about-face can be credibly laid at President Donald Trump’s feet, following his incendiary calls to annex Canada into the United States. But the true culprit is the bloated US defense industrial sector, which has regularly gouged its customers without regard for their political views or national origin.

The F-35 Costs Too Much—and Does Too Little

In the run-up to the F-35’s rollout, Lockheed Martin promised that the plane represented the pinnacle of military aviation because of its “adaptability.” In practice, this meant that there were massive tradeoffs between variants—negating its alleged air superiority and ground attack capabilities.

For instance, critics have long lampooned the F-35 for its small wings, optimized for storage in the cramped hangar of an American nuclear-powered aircraft carrier but detrimental to speed and maneuverability. In simulated dogfights, the F-35 has underperformed against older jets such as the F-16. It even lacks the agility of specialized fighters, like the far better fifth-generation F-22 Raptor in those simulations.

Furthermore, the F-35’s engines have faced regular heat management issues, despite nonstop modernization efforts by the Defense Department. These heat management woes limit sustained high-speed operations and contribute to greater maintenance costs and service outages. Another GAO report, this time from 2024, shows that the F-35 fleet met readiness goals only 30 percent of the time.

Hundreds of other defects remain uncorrected, most prominently including software glitches. While visiting a West Coast Air Force base that houses a substantial number of F-35s, this author was informed that a sniper overlooking the base with a .50-caliber rifle could cripple the F-35s located on the tarmac before those birds ever got airborne with some well-placed shots.

That’s right: an $80 million plane can be rendered combat ineffective by a single bullet.

Beyond development, the F-35’s true expense lies in its day-to-day operations. Sustainment cost are skyrocketing, with the GAO noting in 2024 that they continue to rise even as planned usage decreases due to maintenance challenges.

The plane’s cost per flight hour exceeds $40,000, more than double that of alternatives like the French Dassault Rafale. This has led to mission-capable rates hovering below targets for six consecutive years, forcing the US military to overspend on operations and maintenance by nearly seven percent in recent fiscal years.

Why Is Israel Buying More F-35s?

In the wake of the 12-Day War between Israel and the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) claims that their F-35I “Adir” variant ruled the skies over Iran. As a result, they have put in a large order with Lockheed Martin, essentially breathing new life into what was a staid production line. Ultimately, however, few Western analysts dare to dig deeper into the claims of the IAF when it comes to the F-35I. Namely, just what were they really used for?

By all accounts, the Israelis relied more upon pre-war sabotage, drone strikes from neighboring Azerbaijan, and standoff weapons fired from relatively safe distances in nearby Iraq—standoff weapons that could have easily been fired from cheaper fourth-generation warplanes. With this in mind, why does Israel believe that the F-35 is worth its cost?

The F-35’s overrated status becomes even clearer when compared to its 4.5-generation alternatives. The Swedish Saab JAS 39E Gripen offers advanced avionics, low maintenance costs—$4,700 per flight hour, less than one-eighth the F-35’s cost—and flexibility. Specialized fighters like the F-22 outperform the F-35 in air dominance, while drones represent a cheaper future for warfare.

This plane is not anywhere near as revolutionary as its proponents proclaim. With costs spiraling to $2 trillion or more, persistent defects, and subpar performance in key roles, the F-35 drains what should be finite resources and creates key gaps in America’s already porous national defense system. Those resources, rather than being spent on an overpriced, underperforming fifth-generation bird, should be spent on newer, cheaper, unmanned systems.

As global tensions rise, the F-35’s legacy should serve as a cautionary tale: ambition without accountability leads to fiscal folly, not global dominance.
 

The Pentagon’s F-35 Disaster Keeps Getting Worse

The plane’s cost per flight hour exceeds $40,000, more than double that of its alternatives—leading to mission-capable rates hovering below targets for six consecutive years.

Beneath the glossy marketing campaign that Lockheed Martin has crafted for their long-running F-35 Lightning II multirole fifth-generation warplane lies a program plagued by astronomical costs, persistent technical flaws, and performance compromises. These issues render the F-35 overrated—and far too expensive for what it delivers.

That’s why claims that the F-35s and F-22s (the far better of the two birds) will be used to fight any potential war against the People’s Republic of China elicit snickers rather than fear from the rulers in Beijing. They know that the F-35 is totally overrated.

With a projected lifetime cost exceeding $2 trillion, the F-35 exemplifies how unchecked ambition, bureaucratic inertia, and corporate interests can balloon into a fiscal hole, diverting resources from more practical defense solutions.

What to Know About the F-35 Lightning II

Designed as an ambitious one-size-fits-all project that would keep the United States and a select grouping of its allies ahead of the competition, the plane has largely failed to deliver on its great promises.

The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program was initiated in the early 2000s, and was intended to replace America’s aging fleet of fourth-generation warplanes with a single multirole platform. Early estimates pegged the total cost at around $200 billion. Reality has proven far harsher. By 2023, the US Government Accountability Office (GAO), a federal government watchdog, reported that the program would cost nearly $1.7 trillion over its lifetime, encompassing acquisition, operations, and sustainment. More recent analyses push this figure beyond the $2 trillion mark, factoring in ongoing delays and upgrades. This escalation stems from chronic cost overruns, with development alone ballooning due to concurrent design and testing—a risky “fly before you buy” approach that led to retrofits and redesigns, benefiting defense contractors at the expense of taxpayers and national security.

Attempting to create one jet for three services—with variants for vertical takeoff, carrier operations, and conventional use—inevitably resulted in inevitable compromises and delays. The 2023 GAO report further detailed how the program has faced at least 12 accidents since 2018, exacerbating the already disconcerting reliability issues and gross project delays.

In 2024, the F-35 reached full-rate production, a key benchmark for any major defense program. Yet even at that point, the “fly before you buy” approach was proving itself to be demonstrably weaker than the old way the Pentagon used to do business. Just as the F-35 was reaching full-rate production last year, there were already major modernization efforts underway, such as engine upgrades and software enhancements that continued driving up costs.

These overruns not only strained America’s budget, but they also impacted international partners—as seen in Canada’s auditor general reporting a staggering $8 billion overrun for its F-35 acquisition in 2025. There is now serious speculation that Ottawa may abandon the F-35 altogether in favor of a 4.5-generation European warplane.

Of course, at least some of the blame for this about-face can be credibly laid at President Donald Trump’s feet, following his incendiary calls to annex Canada into the United States. But the true culprit is the bloated US defense industrial sector, which has regularly gouged its customers without regard for their political views or national origin.

The F-35 Costs Too Much—and Does Too Little

In the run-up to the F-35’s rollout, Lockheed Martin promised that the plane represented the pinnacle of military aviation because of its “adaptability.” In practice, this meant that there were massive tradeoffs between variants—negating its alleged air superiority and ground attack capabilities.

For instance, critics have long lampooned the F-35 for its small wings, optimized for storage in the cramped hangar of an American nuclear-powered aircraft carrier but detrimental to speed and maneuverability. In simulated dogfights, the F-35 has underperformed against older jets such as the F-16. It even lacks the agility of specialized fighters, like the far better fifth-generation F-22 Raptor in those simulations.

Furthermore, the F-35’s engines have faced regular heat management issues, despite nonstop modernization efforts by the Defense Department. These heat management woes limit sustained high-speed operations and contribute to greater maintenance costs and service outages. Another GAO report, this time from 2024, shows that the F-35 fleet met readiness goals only 30 percent of the time.

Hundreds of other defects remain uncorrected, most prominently including software glitches. While visiting a West Coast Air Force base that houses a substantial number of F-35s, this author was informed that a sniper overlooking the base with a .50-caliber rifle could cripple the F-35s located on the tarmac before those birds ever got airborne with some well-placed shots.

That’s right: an $80 million plane can be rendered combat ineffective by a single bullet.

Beyond development, the F-35’s true expense lies in its day-to-day operations. Sustainment cost are skyrocketing, with the GAO noting in 2024 that they continue to rise even as planned usage decreases due to maintenance challenges.

The plane’s cost per flight hour exceeds $40,000, more than double that of alternatives like the French Dassault Rafale. This has led to mission-capable rates hovering below targets for six consecutive years, forcing the US military to overspend on operations and maintenance by nearly seven percent in recent fiscal years.

Why Is Israel Buying More F-35s?

In the wake of the 12-Day War between Israel and the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) claims that their F-35I “Adir” variant ruled the skies over Iran. As a result, they have put in a large order with Lockheed Martin, essentially breathing new life into what was a staid production line. Ultimately, however, few Western analysts dare to dig deeper into the claims of the IAF when it comes to the F-35I. Namely, just what were they really used for?

By all accounts, the Israelis relied more upon pre-war sabotage, drone strikes from neighboring Azerbaijan, and standoff weapons fired from relatively safe distances in nearby Iraq—standoff weapons that could have easily been fired from cheaper fourth-generation warplanes. With this in mind, why does Israel believe that the F-35 is worth its cost?

The F-35’s overrated status becomes even clearer when compared to its 4.5-generation alternatives. The Swedish Saab JAS 39E Gripen offers advanced avionics, low maintenance costs—$4,700 per flight hour, less than one-eighth the F-35’s cost—and flexibility. Specialized fighters like the F-22 outperform the F-35 in air dominance, while drones represent a cheaper future for warfare.

This plane is not anywhere near as revolutionary as its proponents proclaim. With costs spiraling to $2 trillion or more, persistent defects, and subpar performance in key roles, the F-35 drains what should be finite resources and creates key gaps in America’s already porous national defense system. Those resources, rather than being spent on an overpriced, underperforming fifth-generation bird, should be spent on newer, cheaper, unmanned systems.

As global tensions rise, the F-35’s legacy should serve as a cautionary tale: ambition without accountability leads to fiscal folly, not global dominance.
I'm waiting to see just how will sweetie rebut ( no sweetie it's not what you think it means ) such a well written & well researched article given technicalities aren't sweetie's strong point . Plus it's National Interest - an American publication . Ja ? @Innominate
 
No shortage of hit pieces from unknown journalists
It's a shame the French don't release the true costs of the Rafale, like the Germans, They both got kicked out of the Finnish comp for being too dear

"The operating costs for the Eurofighter are significantly higher than expected. At 73,992 euros, the price per flight hour is almost twice as high as originally planned."

Has India released the cost of the Rafale?


 
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Spain shelves plans to buy F-35 fighter jets from US: Local media​

Madrid seeks European alternatives, suspending preliminary talks with US company, say press reports​

Ilayda Cakirtekin |​
06.08.2025 - Update : 06.08.2025
Spain shelves plans to buy F-35 fighter jets from US: Local media


ISTANBUL
Spain has shelved plans to buy F-35 fighter jets from the US, Spanish daily El Pais reported Wednesday, citing government sources.
Spain has officially put on hold plans to acquire the US-made F-35 Lightning II fighter jets for its armed forces, according to government sources.
Preliminary talks with US defense company Lockheed Martin have been suspended indefinitely, despite earlier signs of interest and budgetary allocations.
In April, the Spanish government approved a €10.471 billion ($12.126 billion) defense spending plan and reaffirmed its commitment to allocate 2% of its GDP to defense and security.
However, Madrid's decision to channel 85% of these funds toward European-made military systems has reportedly rendered the procurement of the US-made aircraft "incompatible" with national defense priorities.
 
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Relax Herciv, politics is a funny game, wait and see what the new gov says, Besides, they can't fly a Rafale off of the juan carlos, Are they giving up sea fixed wing?

I don't know if a potential sale of a few F-35b to Spain, is as dramatic as the FCAS going down in flames

Airbus casts doubt on FCAS fighter jet program​

“In summary, we no longer see any reason to continue the FCAS, other than a return to the agreed principles and their effective implementation.”

 
It became more visible with Trump, but it was already true before: When the United States offers the F-35 to a country, they do not think of the country's interests but of their own interests. If the country is a vassal, it cannot refuse, and if it is not vassalized, then it generally refuses. And then there are countries that do not know they are vassals, like Switzerland, but Biden came to tell them that they could not refuse the empire's F-35 offer, and Switzerland finds itself with a bomber to provide operational permanence. Finally, there are countries that want to free themselves from US tutelage, like the United Arab Emirates, and which resoundingly refuse to buy a white elephant. But since Trump has been imposing completely arbitrary tariffs on imports, the number of countries that no longer accept US protection is increasing. Switzerland is reconsidering its purchase, as well as Canada, Spain, and Portugal, which have declared that they will not buy the F-35, nor will Greece or India. In Europe, more and more voices are calling for Europe to do without US protection, and France and Great Britain have signed an agreement that extends the scope of their deterrent to Europe, with the argument that if a vital interest of one of the European countries is affected, France and Great Britain will consider that their own vital interest has been affected. We are living in a time when developments are accelerating.
 
Déclaration de la République française et du Royaume-Uni de Grande-Bretagne et d'Irlande du Nord sur la politique et la coopération nucléaire.
Declaration by the French Republic and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on Nuclear Policy and Cooperation.

Published on July 10, 2025

The President of the French Republic and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom reaffirm their strong and long-standing commitment to nuclear cooperation. There is no stronger demonstration of the strength and importance of our bilateral relationship than our willingness to cooperate in this highly sensitive area. In this regard, we welcome the significant progress made since 2010.

Our nuclear weapons are designed to deter the most extreme threats to the security of our two nations and our vital interests. Our nuclear forces are independent but can be coordinated and contribute significantly to the overall security of the Alliance and to the peace and stability of the Euro-Atlantic area.

As we have explicitly stated since 1995, we cannot imagine a situation in which the vital interests of one of our two countries, France and the United Kingdom, could be threatened without also threatening the vital interests of the other. France and the United Kingdom agree that there is no extreme threat to Europe that would not elicit a response from both our nations.

France and the United Kingdom have therefore decided to deepen their nuclear cooperation and coordination. A Franco-British Nuclear Steering Group will be established to ensure the political coordination of this work. It will be led by the French Presidency and the British Prime Minister's Office and will play a coordinating role in strategic, capability, and operational areas.

The United Kingdom and France reaffirm their full support for the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and their obligations under it. We will coordinate ever more closely to maintain and strengthen the international non-proliferation architecture.
 
Switzerland is reconsidering its purchase, as well as Canada, Spain, and Portugal, Greece
Everyone reviews, AU, UK and US even reviewed AUKUS subs, Are you suggesting existing orders from Swiss and Greece will be cancelled? I doubt that very much, Even Turkey wants back in
How many won't go ahead? I include Spain in this, unless they are scrapping marine fixed wing
Greece is making noise because of Turkey

US Congressional report reignites Ankara hopes, as Greece expects first delivery in 2029-30

 
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Switzerland backing out of F-35 deal? Calls grow to reconsider fighter jet purchaseSwiss politicians are demanding the cancellation of a $9.1 billion deal to buy three dozen American F-35 fighter jets after the U.S. imposed a 39% tariff on imports from Switzerland.This is one of the highest tariffs globally-and the highest among European countries (The EU negotiated a 15% rate with Washington).Earlier, Swiss President Karin Keller-Sutter left Washington after failing to persuade Donald Trump to reduce the tariff. Switzerland had hoped to appease Trump by purchasing the F-35s-jets it doesn't actually need.Meanwhile, Spain has already scrapped its F-35 plans, instead turning to European alternatives such as the Eurofighter and the next-gen FCAS platform. However, Spain's decision is largely unrelated to Trump's tariffs./end
 
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