Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

NGAD should absolutely drop the short range version and toss all efforts onto the long range version.

F-35 can handle Europe just fine. The Russians will not hit 100 SU-57's by the end of decade lmao.

China is all that matters.

You are underestimating the Russians a lot.

Anyway, just because something is short range doesn't mean it's not going to be useful against China. Rather the short range version should offer complementary benefits even along the Chinese border. That could be the plan.
 
I will say that US opinion of tech transferring is a lot different after AUKUS. What better way to ruffle some more feathers than an engine tech transfer?

Nuclear submarine technology was the blue chip of the blue chip yet we gave it to the Australians. I don't think there would be an issue if India approached Congress again over the 404 or 414.

Japan is going to require assistance with the F-3, India getting the engine for 4.5 planes seems like a good idea to my pea brain and I'm sure it's a discussion point in DC and the Pentagon.

If USA is working on 6th gen engines IDK, I would much rather India catch up quick.

The Congress will have to clear the transfer before it's offered in the tender though. So the OEMs and the Pentagon have to get it done, not India. I mean, it's meaningless for India to choose the SH only for Congress to deny it later, like what happened with SoKo and the F-35, so India is unlikely to risk it. We already know that ToT is not very extensive for the F414 going on the LCAs. It's only an assembly deal.
 
I will say that US opinion of tech transferring is a lot different after AUKUS. What better way to ruffle some more feathers than an engine tech transfer?

Nuclear submarine technology was the blue chip of the blue chip yet we gave it to the Australians. I don't think there would be an issue if India approached Congress again over the 404 or 414.

Japan is going to require assistance with the F-3, India getting the engine for 4.5 planes seems like a good idea to my pea brain and I'm sure it's a discussion point in DC and the Pentagon.

If USA is working on 6th gen engines IDK, I would much rather India catch up quick.
IMO the trust between US UK and Australia is entirely at different level when compared to India or even Japan, SoKo and other long time allies. Above three countries are essentially the same people (Brits) migrated over different periods of time. They have same culture, same language and had fought together Many Times and can go to war if anyone of them is threatened by external enemy.

India OTOH was a long time Soviet / Russian allied country which faced the brunt of USA propped regime which was armed to the teeth by modern weapons [ie Pakistan], and were hated by many US presidents quite publicly and almost fought a war on 1971. There still is a high level of distrust between the two countries despite improvement in relations over a period of time.
They are still threatening us with CAATSA sanction which is unimaginable for Australia or UK.
 
IMO the trust between US UK and Australia is entirely at different level when compared to India or even Japan, SoKo and other long time allies. Above three countries are essentially the same people (Brits) migrated over different periods of time. They have same culture, same language and had fought together Many Times and can go to war if anyone of them is threatened by external enemy.

India OTOH was a long time Soviet / Russian allied country which faced the brunt of USA propped regime which was armed to the teeth by modern weapons [ie Pakistan], and were hated by many US presidents quite publicly and almost fought a war on 1971. There still is a high level of distrust between the two countries despite improvement in relations over a period of time.
They are still threatening us with CAATSA sanction which is unimaginable for Australia or UK.

Well it's also unthinkable that CAATSA would be necessary for UK or Australia.

Also this is true about UK and Australia but like literally 2 to 5 years ago UK was rejecting a Huawei ban and Australia was proclaiming a golden age with China. Long term interests converge and India's and USA will as well.
 
Well it's also unthinkable that CAATSA would be necessary for UK or Australia.

Also this is true about UK and Australia but like literally 2 to 5 years ago UK was rejecting a Huawei ban and Australia was proclaiming a golden age with China. Long term interests converge and India's and USA will as well.

India's and US's interests will converge mainly over China. But that won't be the case anywhere else. Like India's gonna treat Myanmar differently than the US will. The same with Iran. India's interests in Africa are similar to the US, but not the case in South America. And so on.
 
F-35 in Spain: is the SCAF at risk of crash?
By Vincent Lamigeon on 11/03/2021 at 3:38 p.m.

Madrid would consider ordering 50 F-35s from the American Lockheed Martin. A contract would be a huge blow to the SCAF combat aircraft project, launched by France, Germany and Spain.

Will the F-35 continue its raid in Europe? After the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Italy, Poland, Denmark, Belgium and Switzerland, Spain could join the club of European clients of Lockheed Martin's hunter. According to indiscretions obtained by Gareth Jennings, specialist in military aviation at Jane's, at the International Fighter Conference in London, Madrid would be in discussions with the United States for a potential order of 50 F-35s, including 25 in vertical take-off version for the navy (F-35B) and 25 in traditional version for the air force (F-35A). The contract could be signed in 2025, for first deliveries in 2027, says Jane's. Madrid would thus replace both its old F-18s and the Harrier vertical take-off fighters of the Spanish Navy.

This Spanish interest in the Lockheed Martin hunter is questioning. Beyond the confirmation of the "American preference" on fighter planes in Europe , regularly denounced by the boss of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier, a Spanish order of F-35 would also be a major shock for the aircraft program of combat SCAF, launched in 2017 by Paris and Berlin, and joined in 2020 by Madrid...


No french plane for France's neighbors or for Czechs? :unsure:

Europe is F-35 territory and Europe knows 4th gen fighters like the french plane are in their twilight years and will become obsolete soon no matter how much BS dassault spews about the french planes capabilities. India doesn't have a choice and is forced to buy 4th gen it's not like the IAF thinks the french plane is as capable as the F-35 in surviving a confrontation against chicoms.

The SCAF was never a reality it was more a hope and when Spain decides to go F-35 the SCAF will not even be hope but just some dream of what could of been. France is going to be stuck with 4th gen fighters for the foreseeable future and will be trying to convince the dumb that their fighter is as capable as a 5th gen fighter... we all know how that is working. :)
 

The F-35 Would Give Poland an Edge over its NATO Allies and Russia​


Here's what you need to know: If NATO is to successfully deter the growing threat from Russia, which today is deploying its own fifth-generation fighter, the only option is to invest in the F-35. By doing so, Poland has taken an important step towards enhancing its own security and that of the Alliance as a whole.

This past January, the Polish government took the bold step to acquire thirty-two F-35A Joint Strike Fighters (JSF). Poland is becoming a major player in NATO. It is working to modernize its air, sea and land forces. It is also forging closer relations with the United States, hosting U.S. forces, allowing the prepositioning of military equipment, and working to improve interoperability. By making the decision to buy the F-35, Poland will leap ahead of a number of its European allies, most notably France and Germany, and enter the elite group of countries operating fifth- generation aircraft.

The F-35 will not only be America’s premier fifth generation fighter, but the world’s. From its inception, the JSF was going to be an international fighter. The F-35 Consortium, consisting of the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, Norway, Denmark, and until recently Turkey, contributed more than $4 billion towards the program’s development costs. The aerospace industries in each of these countries also contributed critical technologies. Current estimates for international purchases are between 600 and 700 JSFs.

If all the NATO members currently planning to acquire the JSF fulfill their commitments, the F-35 will constitute NATO’s single biggest fighter fleet, ahead of the Franco-German-British Eurofighter. This will provide a major boost to airpower interoperability for the Alliance.

The move from the current fourth-generation platforms to fifth-generation is both inevitable and urgent. There is a general consensus that fourth-generation aircraft have decreasing survivability in the face of advanced, integrated air-defense networks. Efforts to sustain the ability of older aircraft to penetrate increasing lethal defenses will require larger force packages and the extensive use of scarce support assets, such as airborne jammers. Given that NATO air forces will also be fighting outnumbered, with their infrastructure under continuous attack from long-range-fire systems, this is a losing proposition.

The F-35 will inevitably become the centerpiece of NATO’s air capability. Fifth-generation aircraft with low-observable features, commonly referred to as “stealthiness,” and an array of advanced sensors are able not only to counter advanced air defenses, thereby restoring the West’s erstwhile advantage in the air, but improve the performance and survivability of fourth-generation aerial platforms. Employing its sophisticated suite of sensors, the JSF can pass high-quality, near-real-time targeting information to fourth-generation platforms operating at a distance from high-threat air defenses. In addition, with its revolutionary array of sensors and computers, the F-35 can serve as both a penetrating ISR and stand-in electronic warfare platform.

The ability of the JSF to operate as a highly survivable and agile sensor platform is of nearly incalculable advantage to all networked land, air, and sea forces. The F-35 will enhance NATO’s air and missile defenses and enable new, long-range fires. Operating from within an adversary’s air-defense network, these aircraft will provide early threat detection and tracking, improving the engagement potential of defensive systems. In addition, nascent investments in long-range fires and intermediate-range missiles require a forward-deployed targeting capability that, at present, only fifth-generation platforms can provide. The U.S. Army has demonstrated the ability of the F-35 to serve as a forward-deployed targeting node for its long-range precision-fires program.

Thus, it is difficult to overestimate the importance of Poland’s decision. As a front line state, Poland must be able to field a military capability that dissuades Russia from considering any resort to military coercion or force. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency argued that the case for selling F-35s to Poland was compelling: “This proposed sale of F-35s will provide Poland with a credible defense capability to deter aggression in the region and ensure interoperability with U.S. forces. The proposed sale will augment Poland’s operational aircraft inventory and enhance its air-to-air and air-to-ground self-defense capability.”

According to some observers, Poland’s decision to acquire the F-35 means that for the first time since the advent of airpower, that country will have a better air force than Germany or France. Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki declared: “The F-35 is a sky-high armament that is to serve the Polish armed forces and NATO forces to protect in particular the eastern flank. We are joining this elite group of countries that will be able to use the most modern equipment and the most modern technologies.”


Operating fifth-generation aircraft also improves the ability of NATO allies to integrate their operations and forces with those that the U.S. deploys to Europe. Upon the Polish defense minister’s announcement of the decision to acquire the F-35, U.S. Ambassador to Poland Georgette Mosbacher tweeted: “I’m proud that the U.S. is sharing the latest defense technology with key allies. F-35 fighters will enhance Poland’s interoperability with U.S. forces and our partnership for common security."

As a member of the F-35 club, Warsaw will establish a special relationship with other F-35 operators. In January, Poland joined the F-35 User’s Group to share information, lessons learned and best practices as aircraft are acquired and fielded.

Today, there is only one fifth-generation fighter on the market, the F-35. Efforts by some NATO members to develop their own fifth or even sixth-generation fighter will not come to fruition until the 2040s, at the earliest. By not acquiring the JSF, these countries not only increase their risk in the event of aggression against the Alliance but ensure that they will lag behind countries that have chosen to acquire the F-35 in the development of the appropriate tactics, techniques and procedures for operating advanced, stealthy platforms. It is not clear how or even if an air force can successfully make the leap from fourth to sixth-generation capabilities. The UK has taken a more sensible, but still challenging, approach: first acquiring the F-35 and then beginning development of a sixth-generation air platform.

If NATO is to successfully deter the growing threat from Russia, which today is deploying its own fifth-generation fighter, the only option is to invest in the F-35. By doing so, Poland has taken an important step towards enhancing its own security and that of the Alliance as a whole.

Pretty spot on. Fourth gen fighters are becoming obsolete which includes the F-15EX and french plane only deranged fanboys believe otherwise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spitfire6
India's and US's interests will converge mainly over China. But that won't be the case anywhere else. Like India's gonna treat Myanmar differently than the US will. The same with Iran. India's interests in Africa are similar to the US, but not the case in South America. And so on.

yeah but who cares about those other things in the grand scheme of things when the big big big thing is China.
 
Gripen E is an excellent SE fighter for Swedish Air Force and good option for countries under the domain of US influence.

But for other countries who want to be independent of US arm twisting tactics, it's a nightmare just like Typhoon.
And that's Where Burst Makes much more sense.

France Was wise enough not to depend too much there other countries icts for development. Rafale don't claim to be a stealth fighter like say Su 57 or J20 but LO fighter which is potent enough to do most of the jobs at comparatively affordable price and not that maintenance intensive. It has all the right weapons for multi-role deployment.
It has Airforce and Navy Both versions with high degree of commonality THUS Reducing costs. It has a modern multirole Digital AESA and an advanced EW suit capable to work effectively in contested airspace.

Also it has firm backing of Dassault and French forces for further development.
And that's a lot of advantages for a country seeking for a Fourth gen plus fighter.
That sounds amazing. When will India be getting affordable Rafales? I havn't seen it yet
 
Is that what it is for. I thought it was somewhere to hang the 'situational awareness binoculars' When not in use by the back seat. That the Rafale found to be essential in Afghanistan.

people like to make that binocular joke a lot, but If the pilot and back seat guy hold hands while one looks through the binoculars, that is integrated sensors.
 
yeah but who cares about those other things in the grand scheme of things when the big big big thing is China.

Definitely. The convergence we see here is of the highest importance. But things are not gonna be as copacetic as people are expecting. As India grows, friction points will come up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zinswinsin
Definitely. The convergence we see here is of the highest importance. But things are not gonna be as copacetic as people are expecting. As India grows, friction points will come up.
If we live in a world where that friction exists independently of Chinese pressure I'll be a happy man.

The decisive hour for humanity is approaching for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spitfire6
404 and 414 to India + F-35A's and B's. Support on AMCA and partnership on NGAD?

Doubt anyone could beat that offer.

The state of the world when India was rejected for the 404 originally is a very different world than we live in now. USA giving up nuclear secrets was basically fubar for 6 decades.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Lolwa
404 and 414 to India + F-35A's and B's. Support on AMCA and partnership on NGAD?

Doubt anyone could beat that offer.

The state of the world when India was rejected for the 404 originally is a very different world than we live in now. USA giving up nuclear secrets was basically fubar for 6 decades.

404/414 doesn't really interest India. There's much more interest in developing AMCA's engine, and the Americans backed out pretty quickly when asked. Only the Europeans and Russians have offered next gen engines.

The Americans backed out of offering AESA radars for the LCA Mk1A as well. The only competitors left were Israel and France.

The Americans did not agree to even assist in the SSN/SSBN programs, never mind sharing tech.

We will see what happens when the Su-57 officially finishes development and India shows interest. I feel the US will only offer the F-35 with copious amounts of pressure instead of offering the NGAD.
 
Xi Jinping's re-election next year should set the ball rolling.
Perhaps one of my favourite Roosevelt quotes sums up my feelings about the next 5-10 years.

"There is a mysterious cycle in human events. To some generations much is given. Of other generations much is expected. This generation of Americans has a rendezvous with destiny."

Can't and won't lose.
 
  • Like
Reactions: randomradio
Perhaps one of my favourite Roosevelt quotes sums up my feelings about the next 5-10 years.

"There is a mysterious cycle in human events. To some generations much is given. Of other generations much is expected. This generation of Americans has a rendezvous with destiny."

Can't and won't lose.

Ah, now everything rests on the snowflake generation.
 
War will fix that right up, they will just face a much steeper curve than previous generations who weren't offended by tweets

The natural kick in the *censored* life gives them once they hit the workforce will take care of that. But it's gonna be funny to hear stories of soldiers debating gender fluidity in co-ed barracks during a war.
 
404/414 doesn't really interest India. There's much more interest in developing AMCA's engine, and the Americans backed out pretty quickly when asked. Only the Europeans and Russians have offered next gen engines.

The Americans backed out of offering AESA radars for the LCA Mk1A as well. The only competitors left were Israel and France.

The Americans did not agree to even assist in the SSN/SSBN programs, never mind sharing tech.

We will see what happens when the Su-57 officially finishes development and India shows interest. I feel the US will only offer the F-35 with copious amounts of pressure instead of offering the NGAD.
The Americans won't offer us any real technology until we get into their orbit and buy and produce one of their legacy technologies. And with us buying Russian stuff it's a long time before the Americans offer us any real technology