Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

WHOHE

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When you see how the Swiss evaluate the F-35, it completely discredits them. I prefer scientific arguments to subjective evaluations.
Lol. No. It just shows how butt hurt you frogs really are that Swiss made public their evaluation and came to the conclusion that your plane is inferior (that's no surprised) and $2 billion more expensive to operate... well at least that is the assumption that everyone has for some reason; it could be that your french plane actually came in third. F-35 beat the second place fighter by 95+ points... It wasn't even close. Finland will come to the same conclusion and your delusional frog mind will make up some excuse in your head why your plane lost again to the F-35.

Here's the simplest explanation why your plane loses to F-35... your plane is a 4th gen legacy fighter.
 

BMD

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The engine upgrade is for Germany's new Typhoons.
Strange choice, it's the last thing that needs upgrading. If I was Germany, I'd be more interested in radar and EW. Extra thrust won't win wars.
If we wanted to increase the thrust, it is clear that we would take as a priority the version of the M88 which has 8.3 t of thrust without any modification of the aircraft: neither its length nor the air inlets. Besides, maybe we have already done it for the Qatari and Indian Rafales: the Indians have declared that they have the fastest Rafales in the world....

The second priority would be the 9t thrust version of the M88 which requires a slight modification of the air intakes but no other modification of the aircraft. This version would provide a 20% improvement in T/W ratio compared to 16% for the EJ200 due to the increase in weight it brings.

For the M88-9 the airflow mass is 72 Kg/s instead of 65 Kg/s for the basic version and 76 Kg/s for the EJ200.


Ej200: Specific fuel consumption: 21–23 g/(kN⋅s) (0.74–0.81 lb/(lbf⋅h)) and 47–49 g/(kN⋅s) (1.66–1.73 lb/(lbf⋅h)) (with afterburner)
M 88 : Specific fuel consumption: 22.14 g/(kN⋅s) (0.782 lb/(lbf⋅h)) and 47.11 g/(kN⋅s) (1.663 lb/(lbf⋅h)) (with afterburner)
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
There's an 11t thrust version of the EJ if it was needed. As I said better sfc due to higher BPR. Fact is when France was a member of EF, the M88 was de-selected in favour of the EJ200.
 
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randomradio

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When you see how the Swiss evaluate the F-35, it completely discredits them. I prefer scientific arguments to subjective evaluations.

You can make that argument from the PoV of stealth, data fusion, networking etc, since the Swiss do not have a history with such things. But you can be sure they got performance right, since they can actually test it based on their own experiences, plus the fact that both jets were fully operational when the evaluations took place so peak performance would have been demonstrated.

Anyway, the Swiss don't really care about the technical aspects. They simply decided on the lowest bidder regardless of tech specs. We saw that with the Gripen choice they made before this.
 
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Herciv

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Is the "reforge" concept the beginning of all F-35A squadrons downsizing ?
Air Force Wants Hundreds More Advanced Jet Trainers Despite Already Buying The T-7 Red Hawk
In the Thedrive article, it is stated that the "reforge" concept is to complement each of the F-35A squadrons with T7-A or T-50 to assume low-end missions.
"
The idea behind the tactical surrogate is to have a lower-cost training platform equipped with a cockpit that’s representative of an advanced frontline fighter jet, such as the F-35. It’s driven by the fact that the current T-7A program of record, covering 351 aircraft, is judged insufficient to meet all future jet training needs as envisaged under Reforge.

The Advanced Tactical Trainer would likely emerge with a very different set of capabilities compared to the T-7A's. The Air Force is eyeing external hardpoints for the carriage of training weapons, electronic warfare pods, air combat maneuvering instrumentation pods, and fuel tanks. A compact radar might be another option for the jet, and the RFI also specifically mentions that consideration is being given to installing an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor.
"
"
Holmes’ Reforge plan would radically overhaul this fairly complex process, with future fighter pilots heading straight to their future operational fighter squadron after completing the first two phases of UPT. Once at their frontline unit they would continue to fly the T-7A (or the new Advanced Tactical Trainer type) before transitioning to their assigned combat aircraft at the same location.

The hope is that the revised system will speed up the process of getting newly trained pilots into frontline cockpits, with fewer moves between different bases. Simplified training systems should also help make the fighter pilot career more attractive, at a time when the Air Force is experiencing a significant aircrew shortfall. At the same time, the training demands currently placed on frontline fighters would be reduced.
"
"What’s more, having a new Advanced Tactical Trainer available could help increase the number of actual flight hours that fledgling aviators receive. In recent months, there have been concerns that a reduction in flying hours coupled with an increasing reliance on simulators has led to a surge in mishaps. "
"While the T-7A, initially at least, is being procured as a direct replacement for the T-38 and is tailored for the LIFT portion of the syllabus, the Advanced Tactical Trainer would feature more ‘operational’ capabilities, making it a more appropriate stepping-stone to a frontline type. Potentially it would also be suitable for continuation training, too, reducing the demand on costly fifth-generation types, which are extremely expensive to fly and maintain. Having advanced trainers embedded with these units would help reduce costs and save airframe hours with everything from basic tactics training to pilot proficiency."
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Is the "reforge" concept the beginning of all F-35A squadrons downsizing ?
Air Force Wants Hundreds More Advanced Jet Trainers Despite Already Buying The T-7 Red Hawk
In the Thedrive article, it is stated that the "reforge" concept is to complement each of the F-35A squadrons with T7-A or T-50 to assume low-end missions.
"
The idea behind the tactical surrogate is to have a lower-cost training platform equipped with a cockpit that’s representative of an advanced frontline fighter jet, such as the F-35. It’s driven by the fact that the current T-7A program of record, covering 351 aircraft, is judged insufficient to meet all future jet training needs as envisaged under Reforge.

The Advanced Tactical Trainer would likely emerge with a very different set of capabilities compared to the T-7A's. The Air Force is eyeing external hardpoints for the carriage of training weapons, electronic warfare pods, air combat maneuvering instrumentation pods, and fuel tanks. A compact radar might be another option for the jet, and the RFI also specifically mentions that consideration is being given to installing an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor.
"
"
Holmes’ Reforge plan would radically overhaul this fairly complex process, with future fighter pilots heading straight to their future operational fighter squadron after completing the first two phases of UPT. Once at their frontline unit they would continue to fly the T-7A (or the new Advanced Tactical Trainer type) before transitioning to their assigned combat aircraft at the same location.

The hope is that the revised system will speed up the process of getting newly trained pilots into frontline cockpits, with fewer moves between different bases. Simplified training systems should also help make the fighter pilot career more attractive, at a time when the Air Force is experiencing a significant aircrew shortfall. At the same time, the training demands currently placed on frontline fighters would be reduced.
"
"What’s more, having a new Advanced Tactical Trainer available could help increase the number of actual flight hours that fledgling aviators receive. In recent months, there have been concerns that a reduction in flying hours coupled with an increasing reliance on simulators has led to a surge in mishaps. "
"While the T-7A, initially at least, is being procured as a direct replacement for the T-38 and is tailored for the LIFT portion of the syllabus, the Advanced Tactical Trainer would feature more ‘operational’ capabilities, making it a more appropriate stepping-stone to a frontline type. Potentially it would also be suitable for continuation training, too, reducing the demand on costly fifth-generation types, which are extremely expensive to fly and maintain. Having advanced trainers embedded with these units would help reduce costs and save airframe hours with everything from basic tactics training to pilot proficiency."

There's actually some interest in dedicated LIFT aircraft, like the HAL SPORT.


You can say that it will make up for the lack of twin-seat jets for training, a reality that most new gen fighters will face, without breaking the bank. It's about giving rookie pilots full exposure to 5th gen technologies before they become part of a fighter squadron. Meaning they will be trained in both WVR and BVR combat, supersonic flight, mid-air refuelling, data management etc, so this includes training on the AESA radar, IRST, targeting pods, HMDS, even weapons, stuff that pilots learn after joining a squadron.

The SPORT is basically the LCA two-seat fighter. But the cockpit can be programmed to pretend to be any other fighter in an air force's inventory.

This is what the USAF seems to be aiming for with their ATT. And pilots end up learning to fly in a much safer environment before transitioning to the less forgiving single-seat jets of the future.

This actually enhances the capability of the F-35.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Senate appropriators recommend $366 million cut for F-35 C2D2

By Courtney Albon / October 18, 2021 at 5:53 PM

Frustrated by delays to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s near-term modernization plans, Senate appropriators want to cut $365.8 million from the program’s $1.9 billion budget request for fiscal year 2022 -- a proposal that, if enacted, could lead to further delays as the program seeks to ready its jets for the future high-end fight. The Defense Department’s FY-22 budget request called for a major plus-up for the F-35 program’s Continuous Capability Development and Delivery (C2D2) efforts -- about $830 million...
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Senate Appropriators Advise Significant Cut to F-35 Software Development, Would Make C2D2 Separate Program


The Senate Appropriations Committee’s draft fiscal 2022 defense funding bill recommends cutting nearly $566 million from the Pentagon’s almost $2 billion request for Continuous Capability Development and Delivery (C2D2) for the Lockheed Martin [LMT] F-35 fighter.

Under C2D2, F-35s are expected to receive software updates every six months. Begun in 2018, C2D2 has included the development of Block 4 software to prepare the aircraft to counter area denial by adversaries, Technology Refresh-3 updates, and making F-35s capable of carrying conventional and nuclear ordnance. Cost estimates for C2D2, which the F-35 program is to pursue through fiscal 2025, have varied from $7 billion to more than $10 billion.

An explanatory statement for the Senate Appropriations Committee’s bill noted “significant challenges” facing C2D2. They include “cost growth of approximately 70 percent, schedule delays of the Technology Refresh 3 system, and a three-year delay in the delivery of the complete Capability Increment #1 (formerly Block 4) capabilities,” per the statement. “In addition, the committee remains concerned that clearly quantifiable metrics for contract performance and deliverables of software-based capabilities remain inadequate and are not linked to prior year budget execution or the pending budget request.”

The committee said that it would thus not support the requested nearly $566 million increase for C2D2 in fiscal 2022 and that it is directing the Pentagon to “break out C2D2 from the existing F-35 acquisition program as a separate Major Defense Acquisition Program for oversight and reporting purposes.”
 
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Herciv

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I hope there are not too many schools under the corridors that the F-35s will use. 107db it starts to make. I remind you that the daily exposure limit to 107 db is 1 minute ... And in Holland there is no reverberation on the mountains that means that the few ten to 15 seconds unpleasant in Holland is transformed into 20 25 in Switzerland and with 2 or 3 db more.

They will suffer in Meiringen and in the surrounding valleys. This noise issue will become a real campaign issue in the referendum.
Yesterday evening on the Swiss television, in the Rundschau program, a report on ..... drum roll.... the F-35 and in particular on the noise it makes.

Rundschau - Play SRF (in good German, except for the mayor of Meiringen, our minister of defense and the spokesman of the Federal Department of Defense who speak in "schwyzerdütsch")

They went to the Netherlands (1:59) where six months after the introduction of the F-35 they already have 600 complaints about the noise caused by the aircraft. The population succeeded in forcing the authorities to install various sensors and one can see in real time the noise emitted by the aircraft, up to more than 100 db and this proves that this aircraft is the noisiest of all types of aircraft. At different times we can see, and hear, takeoffs, landings of F-35, F-16 and even a Typhoon. Impressive the moment when they are inside the living room of a resident, windows closed, and we hear the rumble of the F-35 and vibrations of a lamp inside (3:30). People who have lived in the approach corridor for decades and have experienced different types of aircraft also confirm that it is the loudest (3:50). Impressive the difference with the F-16 (4:43). In an elementary school, a teacher indicates that when the children are outside and an F-35 passes by, some of them cover their ears. Others would have already gotten used to it but she doesn't know if it's a good thing, the noise measured is equal to that of a jackhammer.

The minister of defense who confirms that following the measurements made it makes more noise than the F-18, about 3 db, but as it will take off and land about 50% less, the noise pollution taken over a year should be less. A short interview with LM's Swiss sales manager, who is not very comfortable with this issue, but who doesn't say much about it. He dares to say that he personally can't tell the difference between an F-35 and an F-18 (bad faith when you hold us or crass ignorance). Some views of the new simulator and the reporter who can play with it a bit (from 7:12)

Then we go to Norway (09:40) where they have invested 25 million of our francs to improve the insulation of the buildings (windows, walls and roofs) of the first base that receives the F-35. The commander of the base confirms that it is noisier. They bought all the farms and houses in a radius of 1 km and relocated the inhabitants. Those who refused to sell had the insulation of their windows and walls financed by the Norwegian government. The same goes for the houses in the village near the base. One of the inhabitants shows the insulation of his house which is 400 m from the base, the windows are 51 mm thick (see at 12:40).

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 
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WHOHE

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30 live interceptions of armed Russian jets during carrier group aircraft operations in the Mediterranean

23 Oct 2021 NavyLookout

"...Cdre Steve Moorhouse was speaking from HMS Queen Elizabeth in the Indian Ocean, via a recorded message to the Pacific Future Forum event held on HMS Prince of Wales in Portsmouth. He said that while operating in the Eastern Mediterranean, jets from his flagship had been launched to conduct missions over the Black Sea which involved flying a round trip of “well over 1,000 miles”. These flights were conducted simultaneously with the first carrier-based combat sorties flown against Daesh.

Assuming they passed through Turkish airspace, missions to the Black Sea were almost certainly supported by air-air refuelling as 1,000 miles is the maximum extent of F-35B range. To have significance, the aircraft would need to perform at least a brief patrol in the area. Returning to the carrier flying on ‘fumes’ is a risk that would be usually avoided for a non-combat mission. It is worth noting that, despite critics complaints about the ‘short legs’ of the F-35B, it has more than double the range of the legacy Sea Harrier FA2 (c460 miles)....

...On 12th June two F-35 Jets flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth took off to conduct missions against Daesh in Syria and Iraq. This was the first strike mission from a Royal Navy vessel since the operations in Libya during 2011. In a two-week period, there were 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft. Sukhois and Migs came within visual range of aircraft flying from the ship. Moorhouse added that two jets were held at readiness on deck during this period, ready to respond to any Russian air incursions or over[f]lights. The critical importance for the fleet to have its own organic air cover available for all kinds of naval operations is often overlooked when the main focus is usually on the strike element of carrier capability....

...Unintentionally the Russians helped build confidence and test the CSG in a way that no pre-panned exercise ever could. Moorhouse added that: “The high tempo operations in the face of a competing and challenging adversary provided the foundation from which the strike group could prepare for operations the unfamiliar, but equally contested seas of the Indo-Pacific”."
 
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WHOHE

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Mitchell Institute: Ditch F-15EX for more F-35s, new stealth fighters​

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force should abandon its plans to revive fourth-generation fighters under the F-15EX program, and instead focus on building more F-35As and new stealthy fighter jets, according to a new paper from the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies.

Former F-16 pilot Heather Penney, a senior resident fellow at the institute, said in the paper released Monday that the F-15EX Eagle II program is a dead end — one based on outdated technology that wouldn’t suit the Air Force well in a high-end fight nor save money over the F-35 program. She expects the stealth-less F-15EX will end up playing a limited defensive role in a war, at a time when the Air Force has a limited inventory of fighters.

“Given this reality, funding limitations and modern mission demands, the Air Force should seek the soonest reasonable termination point for the F-15EX,” Penney wrote.

The Air Force should instead shift that money to boosting F-35 production and develop another fighter jet, Penney said — one that is affordable, flexible and has stealth capability. This would be in addition to the highly classified Next Generation Air Dominance program that would start fielding sometime in the 2030s, to which Penney said the Air Force should commit wholeheartedly.

In underscoring the importance of fielding stealthy fighters, Penney pointed to the Air Force’s recent experience in Syria. The country possessed Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile systems, which the U.S. Air Force could only counter by deploying F-22s and F-35s, she said.

And other potential foes, such as China, Russia and Iran, will undoubtedly field that air defense system or something similar, requiring the American service to fight with something more capable than a fourth-generation fighter.

“Any modern battlespace will require advanced stealth capabilities, just as the cost of entry,” Penney said.

And if the Air Force allows a capability gap in its fighter force, Penny said, that could give China the opening it seeks to quickly and decisively seize Taiwan.

The Mitchell Institute counts several defense contractors among its financial backers, including Boeing, which makes the F-15EX, and Lockheed Martin, which makes the F-35. The institute said this report was paid for out of its general funds, and not bankrolled by particular contractors.

In addition to pulling the plug on the F-15EX, Penney said the Air Force should completely divest its other F-15s — the “C,” “D,” and “E” models — as well as the A-10 Warthog from its fleet. Those retirements should happen on a one-to-one basis as F-35s come online, she added.

She also called on the service to extend its legacy F-16s to provide air power in permissive environments, as well as retaining and continuing to modernize the F-22 Raptor until the Next Generation Air Dominance and other programs are battle-capable. Little is publicly known about the Air Force’s secretive and experimental NGAD program, although the service confirmed last year that it quickly designed, built and flew a prototype — years ahead of schedule.

When asked what she wanted to see from NGAD, Penney responded: “Range and payload.”

The Air Force will need a future fighter that can penetrate deep into enemy territory, with enough firepower to destroy mobile or difficult targets, she explained. Trying to hit targets from a distance won’t cut it, she added.

“It does not make sense to build a standoff force” that would strike targets from a distance, Penney said. “It’s simply too expensive. It’s not operationally effective. You must have penetration and ... be a stand-in force whenever you execute … prolonged combat operations.”

The ANG is replacing half of their F-15C Units with F-35A's not F-15EX's. The USAF on the other hand is replacing all of their F-15C's with F-35A's. Skipping the F-15EX entirely in the Air Defense Role!

I don't blame Boeing they are doing everything to survive the fighter business who I do blame is the a** clown politicians like Rep Adam Smith and his fellow politicians who take money from Boeing and force the USAF to buy inferior fighters they don't want. Instead of thinking about the nations defense they think about their wallets.

Looks more like NGAD is going to be a fighter unlike the US has ever flown. If it's meant to operate deep inside enemy territory and carry a big payload this fighter is going to be a big size fighter possibly as big as an F-111 and likely as maneuverable. Oh I can't wait to hear the Eurocanard fanboys rip the NGAD for not being agile or being able to "dog fight" and not having a gun. But then again the USAF will have two variants the long range version for Pacific and the shorter range for Europe that will likely have WVR capabilities like F-35, F-16, and F-15C/E/EX.
 

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Picdelamirand-oil

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New engine will kick some *censored* !

Raytheon CEO: Air Force may not be able to afford new F-35 engine


However, Raytheon CEO Greg Hayes said in a call with analysts Tuesday morning paying for the new adaptive engine will be a “tough putt” for the Air Force.

Because the adaptive engine could not be used in the F-35B, the Marine Corps’ vertical takeoff and landing variant or the Navy’s carrier-based F-35C, Hayes said the Air Force would bear its entire development cost.
 
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