LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
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Dec 2, 2017
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Have to disagree here.

For example, take the case of Indian private shipyards. Its not a single market leader but the ecosystem of DPSU shipyards are the problem. They build up capacity with taxpayers money and its giving them huge benefits on price which a private player cannot offer.


Broadsword: Private warship builders live off scraps, while the figures tell the real tale

Ohh no, MDL is the market leader followed by CSL, GRSE and GSL, and they are filled to the brink, yes nomination is a problem there, but then again when open market bidding is done, PSU's will still cream the private shipyards. Most of them are debt free or have nominal debt, have massive cash reserve, and thier interest income is more than enough to accommodate the operating cost. Now if we want a free market type situation, then we can't ask DPSU to look the other way; In the Indian business environment, the biggest shark is "The President Of India" who owns all PSU's; and employs millions; dont expect them to go down without a fight.

This is what PSU's were built for, with public money to be able to one day survive the onslaught of global players, so if a MDL can give L&T+international player, run for its money. I am quite proud of the feat.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
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Unless the right private player is given contract, there wouldn't be much difference.

DPSU need to be up their work culture and management system, become international ly competitive..

Hope both sectors get it right.
True, no one denies that. I hope private consortium give them run for their money; but the usual rhetoric that PSU will close down in 5 years, and it's end of days for DPSU's is quite simplistic and far fetched. On a lighter note; If a scrawny little Amir Khan of QSQT can become the buff khan from Dangal, I am sure with the right measures DPSU's can shape up too.
Most DPSU's if anything are goldmines for it's largest shareholder i.e. "The President of India"; trust me that entity is not going down without a fight. With right recruitment and mountains of cash it sits on, their business model was built for the last 5 decades for this exact scenario, to cope up with globalization pressures; with op cost out of the way, and DRDO to be the research innovators, DPSU's jobs should become easy; i.e if DRDO labs can do it's job correctly.

Lets say ARDE can design a fabulous new age rifle system to OFB, I doubt there is an entity in the world that can produce the system cheaper than OFB; it will beat the snot out of a Sig or a colt, where they have to eat the price of development, promotions, testing and sales; while for OFB here we have a 2 million rifle book order, confirmed customer, zero promotion cost, zero development cost, and zero op cost, zero debt, zero interest cost, low labor cost. There is no beating this system in the open market; as long as ARDE can design and deliver a world class system.
But if ARDE delivers a turd like minsas, excalibur, JVPC etc; there will be no buyer for the system; even if ofb sells it for $100; that remains the problem. In US you have saturday night special junk guns that sell for 75 bucks; but a $600 sig or glock will outsell these by millions. The main hurdle for DPSU's remains Project management, research management; and all entities down stream suffer with snowball effect due to their own contribution to the endemic mismanagement.

A poor design package and mismanaged project from ADA causes delays in order book and IAF acceptance, this goes down stream to HAL, in turn poor staffing and planning in HAL results in poor delivery schedule in to IAF, then IAF's poor managment of the program and feedback result in poor upgrade specifications to DRDO, that results in newer team mismanaging the new versions, and the cycle continues.

If one entity does its job professionally, and the other doesn't; issues can be pinpointed and rectified, when the problems are in all stages, there needs to restructuring based on successful models which are available all around us. DPSU's need to be reformed, not shut down. Shutting down public owned debt free giants by any political dispensation to unilaterally favor private business houses would be daylight robbery of public money.
 
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Proud_Indian

Abhay
Dec 2, 2017
165
212
FOC delays again!

Press Information Bureau
Government of India

Ministry of Defence
31 DEC 2018 3:48PM by PIB Delhi


Progress In Production of Tejas
Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has already achieved Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2013 for fighter version of aircraft and 10 fighter version aircraft have been delivered to Indian Air Force. These aircraft are equipped with various combat equipment as envisaged for IOC version of aircraft.

Final Operational Clearance (FOC) was initially planned by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for December 2012. However the same has not yet been achieved by ADA.

Delays in attaining FOC have been mainly due to delay in finalization of Air to Air Refuelling contract; challenges faced in integration of Air to Air Refuelling probe and associated major hardware (structural modification) and software (Flight control software) modification & flight testing etc.

Two contracts were signed between Indian Air Force (IAF) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., (HAL) for procurement of (i) 20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard aircraft, including 16 IOC fighters and 04 trainers on 31st March 2006 to be completed in December 2011 and (ii) 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard aircraft including 16 FOC fighters and four trainers on 23rd December 2010 to be completed by December 2016.

Till date, out of 16 IOC fighter aircraft, 10 fighters have been delivered by HAL and are operational with IAF’s 45 Squadron. The delivery of remaining 6 IOC fighter aircraft is planned by March, 2019. The production of 4 IOC trainer aircraft would be taken up only after design clearance from ADA. Production of 20 FOC aircraft will be taken up only after FOC by ADA.

This information was given by Raksha Rajya Mantri Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Anubhav Mohanty in Rajya Sabha today.

Progress In Production of Tejas
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,451
4,048
73
France
FOC delays again!

Press Information Bureau
Government of India

Ministry of Defence
31 DEC 2018 3:48PM by PIB Delhi


Progress In Production of Tejas
Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has already achieved Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2013 for fighter version of aircraft and 10 fighter version aircraft have been delivered to Indian Air Force. These aircraft are equipped with various combat equipment as envisaged for IOC version of aircraft.

Final Operational Clearance (FOC) was initially planned by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for December 2012. However the same has not yet been achieved by ADA.

Delays in attaining FOC have been mainly due to delay in finalization of Air to Air Refuelling contract; challenges faced in integration of Air to Air Refuelling probe and associated major hardware (structural modification) and software (Flight control software) modification & flight testing etc.

Two contracts were signed between Indian Air Force (IAF) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., (HAL) for procurement of (i) 20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard aircraft, including 16 IOC fighters and 04 trainers on 31st March 2006 to be completed in December 2011 and (ii) 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard aircraft including 16 FOC fighters and four trainers on 23rd December 2010 to be completed by December 2016.

Till date, out of 16 IOC fighter aircraft, 10 fighters have been delivered by HAL and are operational with IAF’s 45 Squadron. The delivery of remaining 6 IOC fighter aircraft is planned by March, 2019. The production of 4 IOC trainer aircraft would be taken up only after design clearance from ADA. Production of 20 FOC aircraft will be taken up only after FOC by ADA.

This information was given by Raksha Rajya Mantri Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Anubhav Mohanty in Rajya Sabha today.

Progress In Production of Tejas

Contract in March 2006 for IOC production and in 2018, twelve years later you get 10 IOC fighter... What would have been the production rate of Rafale? :eek:
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,585
1,526
India
WtF ..

Why air - air refueling is must for FOc Mk1 when only 20 FOc aircrafts are to be made .

Can't they leave it for Mk1A ? Since 83 will be made in that configuration.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,585
1,526
India
Contract in March 2006 for IOC production and in 2018, twelve years later you get 10 IOC fighter... What would have been the production rate of Rafale? :eek:

if they had made LCA in time we may not even buy Rafale now ..
And make offsets to help Tejas .

We could have instead joined your next gen stealth project..
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,585
1,526
India
@randomradio is there a chance that FOC has been changed into MK1A configuration ?

From Aashish info, there are many files getting dusted in table without movement.
And many more pending works for mk1A.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,535
10,778
India
True, no one denies that. I hope private consortium give them run for their money; but the usual rhetoric that PSU will close down in 5 years, and it's end of days for DPSU's is quite simplistic and far fetched. On a lighter note; If a scrawny little Amir Khan of QSQT can become the buff khan from Dangal, I am sure with the right measures DPSU's can shape up too.
Most DPSU's if anything are goldmines for it's largest shareholder i.e. "The President of India"; trust me that entity is not going down without a fight. With right recruitment and mountains of cash it sits on, their business model was built for the last 5 decades for this exact scenario, to cope up with globalization pressures; with op cost out of the way, and DRDO to be the research innovators, DPSU's jobs should become easy; i.e if DRDO labs can do it's job correctly.

Lets say ARDE can design a fabulous new age rifle system to OFB, I doubt there is an entity in the world that can produce the system cheaper than OFB; it will beat the snot out of a Sig or a colt, where they have to eat the price of development, promotions, testing and sales; while for OFB here we have a 2 million rifle book order, confirmed customer, zero promotion cost, zero development cost, and zero op cost, zero debt, zero interest cost, low labor cost. There is no beating this system in the open market; as long as ARDE can design and deliver a world class system.
But if ARDE delivers a turd like minsas, excalibur, JVPC etc; there will be no buyer for the system; even if ofb sells it for $100; that remains the problem. In US you have saturday night special junk guns that sell for 75 bucks; but a $600 sig or glock will outsell these by millions. The main hurdle for DPSU's remains Project management, research management; and all entities down stream suffer with snowball effect due to their own contribution to the endemic mismanagement.

A poor design package and mismanaged project from ADA causes delays in order book and IAF acceptance, this goes down stream to HAL, in turn poor staffing and planning in HAL results in poor delivery schedule in to IAF, then IAF's poor managment of the program and feedback result in poor upgrade specifications to DRDO, that results in newer team mismanaging the new versions, and the cycle continues.

If one entity does its job professionally, and the other doesn't; issues can be pinpointed and rectified, when the problems are in all stages, there needs to restructuring based on successful models which are available all around us. DPSU's need to be reformed, not shut down. Shutting down public owned debt free giants by any political dispensation to unilaterally favor private business houses would be daylight robbery of public money.

Nothing's gonna happen in 5 or 10 years, it's going to take 30 years at least, when all current projects are no longer important.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
7,463
4,579
Why are we obsessed with Dates

The more important thing is to get it Right

FOC is just a formality for Mk1

The real thing is the MK 1 A

People get upset because of the
" Announcements " coming in from the
Other side of the Border

Believing and trusting them and getting upset would be just like believing
Ashvatthama is Dead story

The sole purpose of these Pakistanis is to
Somehow make Indians feel bad about
Something

Some months ago a PAF guy started telling them the Reality of JF 17

He was promptly banned and all his posts
Deleted
 
Last edited:

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,585
1,526
India
Why are we obsessed with Dates

The more important thing is to get it Right

FOC is just a formality for Mk1

The real thing is the MK 1 A

People get upset because of the
" Announcements " coming in from the
Other side of the Border

Believing and trusting them and getting upset would be just like believing
Ashvatthama is Dead story

The sole purpose of these Pakistanis is to
Somehow make Indians feel bad about
Something

Some months ago a PAF guy started telling them the Reality of JF 17

He was promptly banned and all his posts
Deleted


Thats not the case.
We believed once FOC is achieved on Jan 4 2019, from BR member Dilleep
That means every thing right.
HAL has got everything in its hands to ramp up the production . 8+4+8 per year.
Finally a chance retire and replace old aircrafts..

Now all that is post poned.

Initially it was said that they need 10 refueling to meet the successful standard s.

Now seems there are problems.

Moreover Engines for mk1A is not selected yet !