JIYO PARSI - Asking Parsis to Have More Kids, in the Most Regressive and Patriarchal Way
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That's you conflating two totally separate matters Doc, I don't know or see you in the real world on a day to day basis, but a lot of the taunts you suffer online, you unfortunately bring on yourself - especially with some of the political (and occasionally historical) points that you like to fervently make.
For example, even if you weren't Parsi, some of your more fervent and bizarre Congress/Gandhi worship would invite similar levels of invective - although perhaps the topic would be different.
Cheers, Doc
Cheers, Doc
So what did you guys find "horrifying" about this? I personally laughed at all 3...
This one .....
Cheers, Doc
Yea, I can see your point on this one (although I personally found humor in this one as well - because I can gauge the creator's true intent and message). But of all the ones you've posted, this is the only one where I truly felt like there is serious scope for misinterpretation and trouble.
You do realize its been written by a kid of a Hindu father Parsi mother union .....
Living in the US.
And making a point to point out that she has had her Navjote (likely by a renegade priest .... because it is forbidden).
She isn't a Parsi. And there is a lot of angst (and misinformation) that shows clearly in what she writes ....
Cheers, Doc
What relevance does that have to my point? My point was that a part of her article totally veered off topic and overemphasized the "servant" part of the first ad - where I frankly thought she missed the forest for the trees.
And hey, for you maybe she's not a Parsi, but she's got 50% of the blood you got, and if your people want to actually survive, and not have to marry their own cousins, they'd frankly do well to start accepting people like that into their fold. After all it's not like you're allowing totally random, racially unconnected people into your community through a conversion. These people have Parsi blood running in their veins, I don't know why you people, even now, are so intent on shutting them out, especially if you make the exception for kids of Parsi fathers. Last name inheritance notwithstanding, what other reason is there (besides Patriarchy) for letting in kids of Parsi dads but not Parsi moms?
Well, actually as per our rules, Parsi father kids are not allowed their Navjote either.
It was relaxed for those kids where the couple really wants the Navjote and their kids to grow up as Parsis, for precisely the reasons you mention.
And its been done since the late 70s when the census numbers showed the alarming dip.
In my experience, because of the way the community social matrix and orthodoxy is geared, very few couples eventually go that route.
In fact even Rata Tata has had his share of scrutiny because he was adopted, but in his case it was 100% confirmed that both his biological parents had been Parsi.
Cheers, Doc
Good, so you guys have shown that you're willing to make pragmatic tweaks to survive and keep up your numbers, so now open the gates for children of Parsi mothers as well. You guys could use the numbers, and why keep out someone that wants to be part of you so badly; especially when half of their blood is the same as yours?
In my experience, personal, from what I have seen, while such kids do not have their Navjote, I know two Parsi mothers whose kids have been brought up as Parsis and speak, look, dress, eat, and pray like Parsis.
They even think like Parsis. And in addition to taking their mothers' last name (both mothers are divorced) they also have grown up thinking of themselves as Parsis.
But at home.
They do not wear the sudreh and kusti.
They cannot enter the fire temple.
But the Parsi society at large does consider and accept them as our own. And they (the kids) seem to have made their peace with it.
This is a very long and a very fraught debate. With very vocal Parsis on both sides.
Cheers, Doc
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That's a good compromise for the short term.
As for vocal sides in a debate, even small numbers can be vocal, the question is; what are the numbers of those who support accepting these half Parsis completely, and what are the numbers of those opposed? And vocal-ness notwithstanding, which narrative is more dominant and successful in the public sphere?
Because if Parsi society is moving in a direction where these half Parsi children are de facto treated as Parsis, then sooner or later they'll be able to make the final push to complete the acceptance of their half Parsi brethren. Once the masses within any society start to by and large accept a progressive value/concept, the clergy and orthodoxy can only resist so much.
Perhaps in time your Parsi community will become like the Jewish community; divided between mostly liberal synangogues/denominations, and a few Orthodox ones; but all of them ultimately accepted and recognized as "Jewish."
The majority of the community is extremely progressive, not hyper religious, but are pretty much agreed on this rule. And its the same in Iran as well.
And Mobeds from both sides are 100% in sync on this.
The other (anti or "liberal") side are almost all those with mixed unions of self or close family. And as you can imagine, they are not a small proportion.
As I said, even the kids of Parsi dads are not really considered "real/pure" Parsis. If they have their Navjotes, 9.9 times out of 10 they will marry a Parsi, and over a couple of generations, the community will "forget" the non-Parsi injection of blood.
And the above is really rare.
Its really not a pleasant experience man .....
A close friend of mine has married a Hindu girl. His kids are gorgeous pink fair cherubs. 100% Parsi. Recently his dad passed away. We were all at the fire temple in the evening for the prayers (after the last rites in the morning).
My wife and I came out of the temple and we saw this girl standing alone near their car. We went and hugged her, and she was standing there in grief (she was very close to her fil, and he to her ...) but accepting of the reality.
Cheers, Doc
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Well, mindsets change over time, even more so when there are external issues/circumstances facing a community (like the dip in numbers, problems in finding spouses etc) - and then a decision has to be made, one that may not be easy, but is crucial, as it can have potentially indefinite and mammoth consequences. With Parsis anyhow being a pretty progressive community, being faced with a severe numbers crunch, and a precedent (however slight) being set in the form of the '70s exception; I can see the gates being opened some day, mainly because I see no other real way for you guys to alleviate all the problems you face. And as I mentioned earlier, the Jewish format of Orthodox and Liberal streams within the same faith and community is a pretty practical solution to such problems. All it takes is a few more renegade Priests and a bit of time.
An aside, theoretically, who would Parsis accept more; an Iranian (with possible traces of Arab blood) who practices Shia Islam but wants to convert and join the community, or an Indian half-Parsi that learned about and practiced Zoroastrianism from their parent in childhood and has always lived as a Parsi?
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So what, she wasn't allowed to pay her final respects at all? That's incredibly unfair.
P.S. I'm off for the night, but this was a pretty interesting topic/discussion, I'm glad you called me. And I'd be happy to pick it up again tomorrow.
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The Iranis are having a tougher time. Because the Persians there are oftentimes mixed with Arab blood, which is like a slam dunk for us ....
The reason for the move to India and the early admixture with Hindu women was driven by the belief that we are essentially one people, far removed.
There are obviously theological issues of a serious schism that caused the parting of ways. But the bloodline argument gets a nose ahead of the Iranian side there.
But even so, and I am being honest here, this thought process is tempered hugely by the fact that there is really no Vedic Hindu anymore, over 5000+ years.
So its Semitic blood (seen as inferior, although we do share a history with both the Jews and the Arabs) versus Indic blood that is Vedic Aryan mixed with native Indian blood.
With the Indians there is also the issue that like us, Hinduism too has strict bloodline laws. There has always been an unspoken hands-off agreement between the two communities, which is seen to this day.
That and the fact that one of the conditions accepted by us when we came here was not to convert. I agree a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then, and we are a really small community now that can hardly threaten Hindus like say the Christian and Muslim conversions do.
But its always been a matter of principle, superimposed on our own faith, both of which happen to agree.
Cheers, Doc
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Of course not man.
But the Uthamna prayers in the evening she could not be a part of inside the fire temple.
Also, she could not enter the Dokhma, after the Paidus prayers in the bungli, but then, Parsi women cannot either beyond a point inside.
Cheers, Doc