JF-17 Thunder & PAF : Updates & Discussions

MS Sandhu

Member
Oct 18, 2023
47
17
Pakistan
Exactly, wejust dig our own graveyard with clueless foreign policy & defence procurement.

I am talking about s400.
Barak-8 is a real work horse for India and a bigger threat to PAF than S-400 in real combat

But the mere presence of S-400 can heavily influence the calculations in PAF War-room
S-400 can literally fire a missile upto 250km+ range that's some fu#king huge range.
It may not be able to score a kill but can keep PAF Fighter Jets at bay.
 

MS Sandhu

Member
Oct 18, 2023
47
17
Pakistan
Chinese jets are gonna need more parts, more repairs and more time on the ground than Western jets, and that's something only money can buy, which they lack. The irony. We were stuck with expensive, low availability jets for decades and now the tables have turned.
Chinese Technology is maturing at rapid pace.
Never ignore this fact
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
Simply b/c there is no 5th Gen platform available to us in 2030-32 time frame.

5th gen? No. But 5.5th and 6th gen? Yes.

Su-57M, PAK DP, F-35A and NGAD are options.

The PAF going for the J-31 isn't a surprise to anybody. I had called it back in 2018-19 on PDF. Pretty much everybody on the Indian side believed that the PAF will go for it pretty much during its first flight. Pakistan's economic conditions and diplomatic power do not allow other options.

In any case, the IAF has set upon creating its force structure around MKI, LCA, MRFA and AMCA based on the J-20 and the upcoming J-XX threats. So the J-31 in PAF's hands doesn't change anything for the IAF.

As per the French, the Rafale F5 is enough to deal with all upcoming threats until 2040-45.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
Barak-8 is a real work horse for India and a bigger threat to PAF than S-400 in real combat

But the mere presence of S-400 can heavily influence the calculations in PAF War-room
S-400 can literally fire a missile upto 250km+ range that's some fu#king huge range.
It may not be able to score a kill but can keep PAF Fighter Jets at bay.

MRSAM numbers have been cut due to the introduction of the S-400.

The 40N6 can kill fighter jets at long range, even cruise missiles and helicopters. It's killed target drones at well over 300 km. Its modernized version has made a kill at 480 km.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
Chinese Technology is maturing at rapid pace.
Never ignore this fact

Sure. I had pointed out many years ago that the Chinese military electronics industry had already caught up with the West with the arrival of the J-16 and J-10C. Electronics is a question of money, and the Chinese spend more on it than the collective West. So it's not gonna come as a surprise to me if it turns out their hardware is more advanced than what the West has today.

But my post has more to do with existing engine and airframe tech. For example, the JF-17 and J-10C fall short of even the F-16, never mind aircraft like the Rafale. The bulk of what we are facing currently is what the IAF calls 3rd and early 4th gen technologies in terms of maintenance and availability. What it means is to match 1 LCA's presence in the air, the PAF and PLAAF will need 2-3 jets 'cause they are much older.

So even if Chinese tech is maturing fast, it's not gonna change force equations that quickly. PAF in particular is still gonna be stuck with a lot of very old jets for a very long time.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,910
693
UK, Pakistan
Sure. I had pointed out many years ago that the Chinese military electronics industry had already caught up with the West with the arrival of the J-16 and J-10C. Electronics is a question of money, and the Chinese spend more on it than the collective West. So it's not gonna come as a surprise to me if it turns out their hardware is more advanced than what the West has today.

But my post has more to do with existing engine and airframe tech. For example, the JF-17 and J-10C fall short of even the F-16, never mind aircraft like the Rafale. The bulk of what we are facing currently is what the IAF calls 3rd and early 4th gen technologies in terms of maintenance and availability. What it means is to match 1 LCA's presence in the air, the PAF and PLAAF will need 2-3 jets 'cause they are much older.

So even if Chinese tech is maturing fast, it's not gonna change force equations that quickly. PAF in particular is still gonna be stuck with a lot of very old jets for a very long time.
I loved it where you say
To counter 1 LCA , the page will need 2 to 3 jets.
Such comedy makes my day 😂😂😂
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
I loved it where you say
To counter 1 LCA , the page will need 2 to 3 jets.
Such comedy makes my day 😂😂😂

It's true though. Late 3rd/early 4th gen airframes and engines versus late 4th/early 5th gen airframes and engines.

It's the same for the F-16 vs MKI, 1.5-2 MKIs are necessary to counter 1 F-16. That was the whole idea behind the Gripen.

Otoh, 1 M2000, Mig-29 counters 1 J-10, JF-17. Same generation.

For example, the JF-17's RD-93 has a service life of 4000 hours, whereas the LCA's F414 has a hot core life of 4000 hours. The J-10's engine has just a 2000-hour service life.

As for airframe, to put things in perspective, the F-16 requires 16 hours of maintenance for every flight hour, and Gripen E requires 3 hours. So this is a generational difference. The LCA Mk2 in particular could equal or better the Gripen E. Rafale's is 8 hours. JF-17 and J-10 are unlikely to be better than the F-16.

So if we are talking about a 4x engine life and 5x maintenance hours difference, I'm actually being quite modest.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: Sathya and safriz

MS Sandhu

Member
Oct 18, 2023
47
17
Pakistan
Sure. I had pointed out many years ago that the Chinese military electronics industry had already caught up with the West with the arrival of the J-16 and J-10C. Electronics is a question of money, and the Chinese spend more on it than the collective West. So it's not gonna come as a surprise to me if it turns out their hardware is more advanced than what the West has today.

But my post has more to do with existing engine and airframe tech. For example, the JF-17 and J-10C fall short of even the F-16, never mind aircraft like the Rafale. The bulk of what we are facing currently is what the IAF calls 3rd and early 4th gen technologies in terms of maintenance and availability. What it means is to match 1 LCA's presence in the air, the PAF and PLAAF will need 2-3 jets 'cause they are much older.

So even if Chinese tech is maturing fast, it's not gonna change force equations that quickly. PAF in particular is still gonna be stuck with a lot of very old jets for a very long time.
Fortunately enough,we will not really have to rely too much on Fighter Jets for defence.
PAF has inducted 260km ranged HQ-9BE and 160km ranged HQ-16FE defence Systems
If your claim about Chinese Electronic Industry is true,then these SAMs are quite reliable.
Since SAMs reliability depends upon their electronics (radar stuff).

Even If J-31's availability is close to that of F-16, That's enough for PAF.
F-16s have served PAF quite well.
 

MS Sandhu

Member
Oct 18, 2023
47
17
Pakistan
The 40N6 can kill fighter jets at long range, even cruise missiles and helicopters. It's killed target drones at well over 300
In real war, Russian SAMs continuesly failed to stop HIMARS and storm shadows penetrated S-400 multiple times
It took Russians massive resources to counter tiny fleet of TB2s
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
4,167
1,957
Mumbai
5th gen? No. But 5.5th and 6th gen? Yes.

Su-57M, PAK DP, F-35A and NGAD are options.

The PAF going for the J-31 isn't a surprise to anybody. I had called it back in 2018-19 on PDF. Pretty much everybody on the Indian side believed that the PAF will go for it pretty much during its first flight. Pakistan's economic conditions and diplomatic power do not allow other options.

In any case, the IAF has set upon creating its force structure around MKI, LCA, MRFA and AMCA based on the J-20 and the upcoming J-XX threats. So the J-31 in PAF's hands doesn't change anything for the IAF.

As per the French, the Rafale F5 is enough to deal with all upcoming threats until 2040-45.
SU57- we already rejected it.
PAK DP, knowing the current situation in Russia. Its highly unlikely that they will build this.
F35, no f 35 as long as we operating s400.
NGAD. You will not be offered it if you are not offered F35.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Ginvincible

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
They are not available to us due to geopolitical reasons
Our only way forward is J-31 and that too is at least 10 years away.

My bad, I was referring to the IAF. In any case, J-31 is just a few years away.
Fortunately enough,we will not really have to rely too much on Fighter Jets for defence.
PAF has inducted 260km ranged HQ-9BE and 160km ranged HQ-16FE defence Systems
If your claim about Chinese Electronic Industry is true,then these SAMs are quite reliable.
Since SAMs reliability depends upon their electronics (radar stuff).

Even If J-31's availability is close to that of F-16, That's enough for PAF.
F-16s have served PAF quite well.

I don't know how capable the SAMs are, they could be older tech, but the numbers are insufficient.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
In real war, Russian SAMs continuesly failed to stop HIMARS and storm shadows penetrated S-400 multiple times
It took Russians massive resources to counter tiny fleet of TB2s

It's all fake news. HIMARS does not have the reach to target the S-400 without ATACMS, the ones intercepting it are smaller SAMs. The Storm Shadows saw mixed success, we don't have a clear idea of how many of them managed to operate inside its kill zone. Perhaps not enough numbers were deployed. SAMs are impressive, but not as impressive as people believe due to limited LoS. Anyway, as per Western sources, the S-400 has exceeded their expectations.

The TB2s were countered simply because the Russians have massive resources. The drone wasn't designed for this level of warfare.

You need stealth drones.
 

MS Sandhu

Member
Oct 18, 2023
47
17
Pakistan
It's all fake news. HIMARS does not have the reach to target the S-400 without ATACMS, the ones intercepting it are smaller SAMs.
Russia Ukraine war has spanned over vast lands
Due to utter failure of RuAF,Some of S-400s could have been deployed on front lines to counter UkAF

And there you go! There were well in HIMARS targeting range
Credible media reports exist to confirm that HIMARS indeed destroyed some systems of S-400

Ukrainian soldiers use HIMARS MLRS to destroy Russian 55K6E S-400 Air Defense Command Post | Ukraine - Russia conflict war 2022 | analysis focus army defence military industry army

Russian Commanders are really frustrated about these HIMARS Rockets


Millerovo airbase in Russia is home to two Su-30 squadrons and was defended by 4th Air & Air Defence Forces comprising of at least 8 S-400 and S-300 units defending the Rostov Oblast. This was the aftermath of two Ukrainian Tochka-U, short-range ballistic missile attack on second day of the Russian invasion.:

main-qimg-0f36420beae7d2fe1d4445e4b18204d1-lq.jpeg
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
Russia Ukraine war has spanned over vast lands
Due to utter failure of RuAF,Some of S-400s could have been deployed on front lines to counter UkAF

And there you go! There were well in HIMARS targeting range
Credible media reports exist to confirm that HIMARS indeed destroyed some systems of S-400

Ukrainian soldiers use HIMARS MLRS to destroy Russian 55K6E S-400 Air Defense Command Post | Ukraine - Russia conflict war 2022 | analysis focus army defence military industry army

Russian Commanders are really frustrated about these HIMARS Rockets


Millerovo airbase in Russia is home to two Su-30 squadrons and was defended by 4th Air & Air Defence Forces comprising of at least 8 S-400 and S-300 units defending the Rostov Oblast. This was the aftermath of two Ukrainian Tochka-U, short-range ballistic missile attack on second day of the Russian invasion.:

View attachment 31889

I wouldn't worry about isolated events. For example, early during the war the Russians may have allowed the strikes to go through to prevent giving away secrets, since the expectation was the war will be over within a week. We will know at least some true stories after the war is over.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
Numbers will add up since both PA and PAF are heavily investing in SAMs
And there is quest for home made SAMs also

Gotta see it to believe it though. Building an effective IADS requires an economic potential that Pakistan lacks. As of now, Pak's SAM purchases are quite nominal.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,910
693
UK, Pakistan
Russia Ukraine war has spanned over vast lands
Due to utter failure of RuAF,Some of S-400s could have been deployed on front lines to counter UkAF

And there you go! There were well in HIMARS targeting range
Credible media reports exist to confirm that HIMARS indeed destroyed some systems of S-400

Ukrainian soldiers use HIMARS MLRS to destroy Russian 55K6E S-400 Air Defense Command Post | Ukraine - Russia conflict war 2022 | analysis focus army defence military industry army

Russian Commanders are really frustrated about these HIMARS Rockets


Millerovo airbase in Russia is home to two Su-30 squadrons and was defended by 4th Air & Air Defence Forces comprising of at least 8 S-400 and S-300 units defending the Rostov Oblast. This was the aftermath of two Ukrainian Tochka-U, short-range ballistic missile attack on second day of the Russian invasion.:

View attachment 31889
Ukrainian are the new Taliban
Too determined, and nothing to lose.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ashwin