Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Ashwin

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MICA-RF & IR with Spice bomb
 

marich01

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This is ejector launch. A2A wvr missiles are usually rail launched? I guess you could do this because of significant range of mk2 , like meteor? or is it the dual pulse motor thing?

ps: Any word on the NGCCM that was supposedly ongoing? a desi python/R73 alternative in the pipeline? I guess the BVR project took priority, SFDR tech demo done so about 2 years before mk3 comes to trials stage. Surely a CCM project could take shape in between?
I don't mind BDL making Asraam here, but a desi product is preferable to me.
 
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marich01

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I thought NGARM would also go in other fighters like Mirages & Tejas, and also a heli gunship version of 200-300 kg, similar to nasm-sr like re-purposed launching system.

About the Astra series, would it make sense to create a multi pulse aesa seeker based long range option , that can do LOAL mode, can do dual seeker work (IR and aesa ku band) , range max 300km ? I mean is it feasible?
 
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Gautam

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I thought NGARM would also go in other fighters like Mirages & Tejas,
It will. Eventually.
and also a heli gunship version of 200-300 kg
This probably won't happen. Helos are too slow to perform SEAD/DEAD operations safely. They can target short range mobile AD systems only once the longer ranged AD threat has been neutralized. You don't need dedicated ARMs for that role. Anti-tank missiles, rockets & guns can do that job quite well.

There is a new missile under dev for UAVs & helos. Probably for anti-tank &/or anti-personnel roles. I forget the project name.
About the Astra series, would it make sense to create a multi pulse aesa seeker based long range option , that can do LOAL mode, can do dual seeker work (IR and aesa ku band) , range max 300km ? I mean is it feasible?
All AESA seekers are to some extent multi-pulse capable. If you mean multi-frequency, then yes, we are working on Ultra-Wide Band (UWB) AESA. The tech is close to fruition. It will 1st be used on large sized long ranged radars. Might take a while to get to seekers.

As for LOAL mode, you need a 2-way data link for that. The 1st batch of 350+ Astra Mk1 probably doesn't have LOAL mode. But the VL-SRSAM, which is based on the Astra Mk1, does have this capability. You can see the conformal antenna for the 2-way datalink on the VL-SRSAM proto below (White rectangle on the missile's forebody):
Pic1(3)2L1S (1).jpg

All future batches of Astra Mk-1 & future variants of the Astra missile will all have the LOAL capability.

We had a project going for dual seeker assembly. DRDO isn't giving the project as much of a priority as the AESA seeker project. Maybe performance gains aren't good enough. I don't know.

As for 300km ranged BVR, surely you have heard of the SFDR project. If not, google away.
Size suggests that this is a tactical ballistic missile. The nose is clearly derived from the Agni series. Doesn't seem optimized to be a satellite launcher. So probably not the VEDA. Thinner than the Agni-P while being similar in height. Very interesting.

I didn't know we had any TBMs under development. Maybe this is meant for the new rocket force. I would guess that this would have 1000-1500 km range.
 

Gautam

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looks like a huge missile , how many of them can be carried on the pylons ?
VL-SRSAM isn't supposed to be air-launched. No question of pylons. As for the Astra Mk-1, that depends on the pylon & of course the aircraft in question.

The MKI can carry the 2.5 ton Brahmos ALCM on the center-body pylon, 600kg Rudram-1 on the mid-body pylon & the 175 kg R-77 on the out-board pylon. Compared to these the 150 kg Astra Mk-1 is not a problem.

At its current weight/size the Mk-1 will have no problem integrating with any fighter aircraft in service.
 

Chain Smoker

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VL-SRSAM isn't supposed to be air-launched. No question of pylons. As for the Astra Mk-1, that depends on the pylon & of course the aircraft in question.

The MKI can carry the 2.5 ton Brahmos ALCM on the center-body pylon, 600kg Rudram-1 on the mid-body pylon & the 175 kg R-77 on the out-board pylon. Compared to these the 150 kg Astra Mk-1 is not a problem.

At its current weight/size the Mk-1 will have no problem integrating with any fighter aircraft in service.
I think we should develop ground launched variant of astra mk2 since it's dimension is similar to mk1 and can be launched from existing launcher.
 
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Rajput Lion

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I think we should develop ground launched variant of astra mk2 since it's dimension is similar to mk1 and can be launched from existing launcher.
VL-SRSAM has 40 to 50 km range and it can reach altitude of around 15km. What if VL-SRSAM is based on Astra 2 and not Astra 1? If it's true then Astra 2 was already tested in front of us from ground *covertly*😃
 

Gautam

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I think we should develop ground launched variant of astra mk2 since it's dimension is similar to mk1 and can be launched from existing launcher.
That will give us a SAM with performance similar to the Barak-8. Why re-invent the wheel?

Better work on navalizing the Akash-NG, maybe attack a booster to make an ER variant. That missile can take over the role of the Barak-8 for the services. It will be easier to say make a naval quad-pack for the Akash NG, as it is our design.

The Barak-8 project helped us acquire 2-way data link tech, set up domestic design/manufacturing for dual-pulse propulsion motors & also indirectly helped us the design naval hot launcher for the VL-SARSAM. The project was very useful no doubt. But not its utility has started to run out.
VL-SRSAM has 40 to 50 km range and it can reach altitude of around 15km. What if VL-SRSAM is based on Astra 2 and not Astra 1? If it's true then Astra 2 was already tested in front of us from ground *covertly*😃
VL-SRSAM is too thin to have a dual pulse motor. It is not the Astra-Mk2. This is a design constraint with dual pulse motors. The propellant grain that produces the 1st pulse has to be a hollow shaft in design. There has to be a feed pipe that runs through it. That pipe is used to activate the 2nd pulse & is a critical part of the motor's design. A hollow shaft grain will inevitably have a higher outer dia than a solid shaft grain.
 

Gautam

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There is a new missile under dev for UAVs & helos. Probably for anti-tank &/or anti-personnel roles. I forget the project name.

This is the missile I was talking about:
E9Fa4_YWUAQ4uOi.jpg


Apparently, this thing & a derivative of the SAMHO missile are being considered for arming UAVs. I wonder what they mean by derivative? May be a different seeker. The SAMHO currently uses a SAL seeker, maybe they will switch to an IIR seeker. That will make it more expensive.

The new missile seems to have a radome on the nose not an IIR window. I remember in an Aero India show VEM Technologies showcased a SAMHO missile with their own W-band seeker. That could be an interesting set up.
O8OXDxI.jpg
 
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Rajput Lion

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That will give us a SAM with performance similar to the Barak-8. Why re-invent the wheel?

Better work on navalizing the Akash-NG, maybe attack a booster to make an ER variant. That missile can take over the role of the Barak-8 for the services. It will be easier to say make a naval quad-pack for the Akash NG, as it is our design.

The Barak-8 project helped us acquire 2-way data link tech, set up domestic design/manufacturing for dual-pulse propulsion motors & also indirectly helped us the design naval hot launcher for the VL-SARSAM. The project was very useful no doubt. But not its utility has started to run out.

VL-SRSAM is too thin to have a dual pulse motor. It is not the Astra-Mk2. This is a design constraint with dual pulse motors. The propellant grain that produces the 1st pulse has to be a hollow shaft in design. There has to be a feed pipe that runs through it. That pipe is used to activate the 2nd pulse & is a critical part of the motor's design. A hollow shaft grain will inevitably have a higher outer dia than a solid shaft grain.
Derby ER has twin-pulse rocket motor and its diameter is same as I-Derby single pulse variant. Astra 2 visually looked very similar to VL-SRSAM and Astra mk1 so🤷‍♂️
 

Gautam

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Derby ER has twin-pulse rocket motor and its diameter is same as I-Derby single pulse variant.
Their design is different from ours. In our case the dia of the motor dominates & the rest of the missile conforms to that dia. In their case dia of the seeker dominates & the rest follows. It is an interesting difference in design approach. It shows the different priorities given to various components.

Our approach will produce aerodynamically efficient designs while the electronics will have to be adjusted to meet the constraints. Their approach will produce very effective seekers but not the most efficient aerodynamic designs & rocket motors.
Astra 2 visually looked very similar to VL-SRSAM and Astra mk1 so🤷‍♂️
They are very similar for a good reason. The design is optimum let's not change it. The only difference is that the Mk-2's front end looks a little slimmer. This is because we are using the same seeker as Mk-1 but we are mating a slightly fatter motor to it.

I think this render of the Mk-2 is pretty accurate:

 
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Rajput Lion

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Their design is different from ours. In our case the dia of the motor dominates & the rest of the missile conforms to that dia. In their case dia of the seeker dominates & the rest follows. It is an interesting difference in design approach. It shows the different priorities given to various components.

Our approach will produce aerodynamically efficient designs while the electronics will have to be adjusted to meet the constraints. Their approach will produce very effective seekers but not the most efficient aerodynamic designs & rocket motors.

They are very similar for a good reason. The design is optimum let's not change it. The only difference is that the Mk-2's front end looks a little slimmer. This is because we are using the same seeker as Mk-1 but we are mating a slightly fatter motor to it.

I think this render of the Mk-2 is pretty accurate:

Don't know why but Astra mk2 which was "officially" revealed few days back and VL-SRSAM look so "similar" to me(even their mid-body girth looks equal)🤷‍♂️

Anyways, even if VL-SRSAM is only single pulsa a la Astra 1, we may upgrade it with dual pulse version in future. Lets see.


Astra 2:

Screenshot_20221008-193729_Chrome.jpg



VL-SRSAM:

Screenshot_20221008-193841_Chrome.jpg
 
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marich01

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DRDO preview of def expo missile zone had all of the recent tests, hopefully some updates also come for nag/helina/Sant


Missile tech is highly guarded secret, so most of drone makers are only arming with small payload ammo, like Raphe Mphibr
Drones will have very good market share, but no denying our foray into a MALE class armed drone with a full armed package is completely shut off by our own PSU orgs. This is even considering DRDO Newspace jv , Adani Elbit jv etc. Only positive I can see is a lot options for possible drone swarms. A lot of such projects will invariably get into terrorist hands.

ammo34.jpg