Indian Electronics Manufacturing Developments : News, Updates and Discussions

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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@Saaho @Bali78

This ends China's ability to outsource production of chips, as you guys have touted as an option. Nothing that uses American IP or has access to the American market can be used in these Chinese companies.

Now the only Chinese option is to achieve a 100% indigenisation of their own semiconductor industry. These are called sanctions.

The U.S. Commerce Department announced it’s blacklisting Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp., drone maker SZ DJI Technology Co. and more than 60 other Chinese companies “to protect U.S. national security.”



“This action stems from China’s military-civil fusion doctrine and evidence of activities between SMIC and entities of concern in the Chinese military industrial complex,” the Commerce Department said in a statement.



Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross confirmed the move in a Friday morning interview with Fox Business. It was reported first by Reuters overnight. Shares in SMIC, China’s top chipmaker, slid 5.2% Friday in Hong Kong on the news.




Other affected Chinese entities include those “that enable human rights abuses, entities that supported the militarization and unlawful maritime claims in the South China Sea, entities that acquired U.S.-origin items in support of the People’s Liberation Army’s programs, and entities and persons that engaged in the theft of U.S. trade secrets,” according to the U.S. government statement.




“There’s plenty in the open press about how DJI has been part of the surveillance state and overall suppression within China,” a senior Commerce official said.

The majority of the newly banned companies are Chinese and will join the likes of Huawei Technologies Co. on a list that denies them access to U.S. technology from software to circuitry.


Companies including Huawei and SMIC have been caught in the middle of worsening tensions between the world’s two largest economies, which have clashed on issues from trade to the pandemic.

President Donald Trump had been widely expected to level more sanctions against China’s national champions before Joe Biden formally took office.


Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi called the U.S.’s expansive use of sanctions against Chinese companies “unacceptable” in a video address to the Asia Society on Friday. He urged the U.S. to stop “over stretching the notion of national security,” and “the arbitrary suppression of Chinese companies.”

Shanghai-based SMIC, a supplier to Qualcomm Inc. and Broadcom Inc., lies at the heart of Beijing’s intention to build a world-class semiconductor industry and wean itself from reliance on American technology. Washington in turn views China’s ascendancy and its ambitions to dominate spheres of technology as a potential geopolitical threat. A blacklisting threatens to cripple SMIC’s longer-term ambitions by depriving it of crucial gear.

For U.S. companies exporting items to SMIC for making 10-nanometer or more advanced chips, their applications for a license will face “presumption of denial,” while items for producing chips more mature than 10-nanometer will be reviewed on a case by case basis, according to a senior Commerce official.

Companies exporting parts made outside of the U.S. to SMIC will face certain restrictions depending on how much of their technologies are U.S.-origin, and Washington is talking to “like-minded governments” about forming a unified approach to the Chinese chipmaker, senior Commerce officials said. They declined to give details on which governments the U.S. is talking to and potential implications on non-U.S. companies like ASMl Holding NV and Tokyo Electron Ltd. that also supply equipment for making advanced chips.


In response to the widening U.S. crackdown, China is planning to provide broad support for so-called third-generation semiconductors in its next five-year plan to increase domestic self-sufficiency in chip manufacturing, people with knowledge of the matter have said. SMIC, backed by the China Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund as well as Singapore’s sovereign fund GIC Pte and the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority, is expected to play a central role in that overall effort.

SMIC representatives didn’t respond to requests for comment. The company had already been laboring under similar, less severe curbs after the Commerce Department in September placed it on a separate export restrictions list, accusing SMIC of supplying the military. Those sanctions took a toll on shares of the company, whose co-CEO Liang Mong Song this week unexpectedly resigned, triggering another selloff.
 

Saaho

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The Chinese have set up 3 new companies and poached talent from Synopsys and Cadence to make their own EDA tools. Also, Synopsys and Cadence are investing in these new companies because of what's at stake here for them. They are also making their own investments in China as well.
Highly doubt they can replace Synopsys and Cadence tools that easily or that fast. And its not just tools, its patents too. MANY solutions are blocked by having its algo's protected by Patents. Not to mention, its harder to develop and perfect these software. GNU efforts on this are decades long and there are some really really intelligent folks in that scene.

BTW, where did you hear that Synopsys and Cadence are investing in any EDA company in China? That will be shooting yourself in the foot.

The only model left to US semicondutor business houses is that of licensing IPs (after all manufacutring consolidated in Taiwan etc). No one in their right mind will produce a competitor.

Yep. Pretty much the case here. China's already dominating the semiconductor market, it's only a matter of time before they dominate the entire industry given the new investments they are making under Made in China 2025. We need to create our own capacities to counter their rise. Lucky for us, their 2025 plan was pushed back due to the trade war, so that bought us some time. If we still don't utilise the time bought by the US, then that's gonna be one of the biggest blunders we ever make.
What we need is to develop either opensource solution to EDA problems (so they cannt be blocked by US government) OR encourage and retain local software companies to develop those EDA tools. Manufacturing semiconductor is not as big of a challenge -- all the links you have quoted points to that.

There are 2 main types of processes that are in cutting edge manufacturing of chips : FinFET based one (TSMC) which goes till 7 nm and GAAFET based one (Samsung). For both of them almost all the patents etc are held by non US companies. It is possible to avoid any US restriction in MANUFACTURING part because both the major manufacturers are NOT US companies. Also, if US bans either of them, its own domestic companies will be toast. IF US bans TSMC, who the hell will fabricate Apple's chips OR Nvidia's Chips OR AMD's chips?

EDA tools and IPs? There they have China cornered.

I don't think you guys appreciate the extent of the US ban on Huawei.
Oh I really really appriciate it.

If you go through the link you have just pasted you will see things like this :

One, TSMC, Samsung, SMIC, and other fabs could create Huawei-specific, or China-specific, production lines with zero US equipment. This would be a huge investment just to deal with one customer, but if US restrictions spread to all Chinese companies it could make sense economically.

It is possible because the processes are NOT owned by US. And these are worst case speculations of the author. EVEN in worst case, they can possibly manufacture chips for Chinese companies. From there, TSMC and SMIC will now setup independent lines to avoid such situations in future too.

Lets see the next part which is the real trouble.

Again from your own link :

Domestic tool companies already have tools for certain parts of the design flow, but nothing that covers the entire design process from architectural exploration, to RTL verification, to physical design, etc. The Department of Commerce has made it clear it wants to stop Huawei using Synopsys, Cadence, and Mentor tools, and I interpret the following to mean its partners can’t use them either to supply Huawei with design services or silicon IP:

This currently is impossible. There is no possible EDA tool chain which can be used by Chinese companies. This is HARDER to solve than manufacturing and IP problem.

There’s a lot of scattered IP in a design: the GPU, communication interfaces, on-chip monitors, etc. In addition to EDA, Synopsys, is also an IP provider. Just one example is its USB IP: Huawei uses Synopsys USB 2 and USB 3 PHY IP, and it no longer can. This IP is not something that can just be designed overnight, and Huawei will need to find an alternative that doesn’t come from a company using US EDA tools.

This is what is hitting Huawei the most and is HARD to replace.


Your source is telling what I have been telling you for quite sometime.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Highly doubt they can replace Synopsys and Cadence tools that easily or that fast. And its not just tools, its patents too. MANY solutions are blocked by having its algo's protected by Patents. Not to mention, its harder to develop and perfect these software. GNU efforts on this are decades long and there are some really really intelligent folks in that scene.

BTW, where did you hear that Synopsys and Cadence are investing in any EDA company in China? That will be shooting yourself in the foot. The only model left to US semicondutor business houses is that of licensing IPs (after all manufacutring consolidated in Taiwan etc). No one in their right mind will produce a competitor.

Amedac was founded in September by Chieh Ni, a ten-year veteran of Synopsys with investment support from Synopsys, according to the report. Synopsys has taken a 20 percent stake in the startup and Ge Qun, chairman of Synopsys' Chinese operations sits on the board of Amedac.

What we need is to develop either opensource solution to EDA problems (so they cannt be blocked by US government) OR encourage and retain local software companies to develop those EDA tools. Manufacturing semiconductor is not as big of a challenge -- all the links you have quoted points to that.

There are 2 main types of processes that are in cutting edge manufacturing of chips : FinFET based one (TSMC) which goes till 7 nm and GAAFET based one (Samsung). For both of them almost all the patents etc are held by non US companies. It is possible to avoid any US restriction in MANUFACTURING part because both the major manufacturers are NOT US companies. Also, if US bans either of them, its own domestic companies will be toast. IF US bans TSMC, who the hell will fabricate Apple's chips OR Nvidia's Chips OR AMD's chips?

EDA tools and IPs? There they have China cornered.


Oh I really really appriciate it.

If you go through the link you have just pasted you will see things like this :



It is possible because the processes are NOT owned by US. And these are worst case speculations of the author. EVEN in worst case, they can possibly manufacture chips for Chinese companies. From there, TSMC and SMIC will now setup independent lines to avoid such situations in future too.

Lets see the next part which is the real trouble.

Again from your own link :



This currently is impossible. There is no possible EDA tool chain which can be used by Chinese companies. This is HARDER to solve than manufacturing and IP problem.



This is what is hitting Huawei the most and is HARD to replace.


Your source is telling what I have been telling you for quite sometime.

Not at all. You haven't understood the source. I thought it was understood, because the article deals with only half the picture. Didn't you see the "like-minded countries" quote in it?

It won't work if the countries that host these companies also sanction China.

There are a few cases when it comes to production sources for China:
1. Domestic fab, American IP: sanctioned
2. Foreign fab, American IP : sanctioned
3. Domestic fab, non-American IP: Possible... Requires fab plant to be in China.
4. Foreign fab, non-American IP: Can be sanctioned if other foreign countries also participate in the American-led sanction.

You see, the article doesn't cover the 4th point, which is the other half. It doesn't matter if it's Samsung or TSMC, their only choices now are to either invest in China or lose the Chinese market since it's highly likely that the American govt will pressure Taiwan and Korea to stop their companies from dealing with China entirely. Which is why the only option for China is 3.

Even with 3, there are two issues. A company located outside China can also be sanctioned, even if they use non-American IP, for dealing with a Chinese company on the sanctioned list. So even if Samsung or TSMC sets up a fab in China using non-American IP, the Americans can threaten to cut off Samsung and TSMC from the American market. So, quite literally, even with 3, the only option for China where the Chinese hold full control is a domestic fab with Chinese IP, and it seems like this is what China has chosen to do. I've gotta stress on this once more. The Chinese have decided to make domestic Chinese-owned fab using Chinese IP. And they are setting up companies for making design tools as well. Full end-to-end design, development and production of chips will then end up in Chinese hands, which is actually a goal of their Made in China 2025 program in any case.

The Chinese seem to be doing pretty well with their new "8nm" process from Innosilicon, which is exclusively Chinese IP. So they are just a few years behind.

As for any potential fall-out from loss of business from Samsung or TSMC in the American market, both the companies have chosen America.

You also seem to have forgotten that TSMC is already setting up a 5nm plant in the US. So they are already set when it comes to supplies. I doubt Samsung will sell to China over America, especially if the Korean govt also supports sanctioning Chinese companies. Btw, Apple, AMD and Nvidia are gonna produce their chips in the US from 2024, at the new TSMC plant in Arizona. So US production can be made sanction proof, while sanctioning a lot of other businesses of Samsung and TSMC if they do not comply.

You are underestimating American sanctions.

As for India, it doesn't matter who it is. The idea is for any one of them to invest in India. First to start off with existing IP, American or not, and then eventually create new IP. As I've pointed out before, the Chinese decided to enter quite late, which is their mistake. Whereas we need to enter quite early by our standards, which is now, so we do not have to go through this nonsensical charade when it's our turn. It's fine if Samsung comes in with exclusively Korean IP and sets up shop in India early on. We do not want American or Chinese control over our supply in the long run. The best case is we make our own IP, the alternative is the IP coming in is not under American or Chinese control. If they decide not to invest, then we will have to go it alone and eventually create our own IP. But for now, we need a fab ecosystem built in India so that we can avoid what the Chinese are facing today.
 
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jetray

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The Chinese seem to be doing pretty well with their new "8nm" process from Innosilicon, which is exclusively Chinese IP. So they are just a few years behind.
Nah, now they are stuck with 14nm. US entities are barred from exporting any material to chinese fab company. Most of the fab plants use tools manufactured by US manufacturers like applied materials even TSMC as well.
You also seem to have forgotten that TSMC is already setting up a 5nm plant in the US. So they are already set when it comes to supplies. I doubt Samsung will sell to China over America, especially if the Korean govt also supports sanctioning Chinese companies. Btw, Apple, AMD and Nvidia are gonna produce their chips in the US from 2024, at the new TSMC plant in Arizona. So US production can be made sanction proof, while sanctioning a lot of other businesses of Samsung and TSMC if they do not comply.
yup TSMC is booked up even for 3nm which they havent even started yet. Samsung's tech is not that great compared to TSMC's mature process. Samsungs yield is pretty low and power consumption is high. Again samsung also relies on american IP as well.


Chinese have been smart they bought motorola to get a foothold in cellphone market and then started climbing up the ladder. They attempted to buy black berry which is nearly bankrupt but were not successful. Their sole intention was to get IP's.


Either china fights it out or goes down , it will be interesting to see what happens next as china overtakes US as the biggest economy in another 5-8 years. More than tech I think US will squeeze china from all the markets and ensure they remain as top economy.
 
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randomradio

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Nah, now they are stuck with 14nm. US entities are barred from exporting any material to chinese fab company. Most of the fab plants use tools manufactured by US manufacturers like applied materials even TSMC as well.

yup TSMC is booked up even for 3nm which they havent even started yet. Samsung's tech is not that great compared to TSMC's mature process. Samsungs yield is pretty low and power consumption is high. Again samsung also relies on american IP as well.


Chinese have been smart they bought motorola to get a foothold in cellphone market and then started climbing up the ladder. They attempted to buy black berry which is nearly bankrupt but were not successful. Their sole intention was to get IP's.


Either china fights it out or goes down , it will be interesting to see what happens next as china overtakes US as the biggest economy in another 5-8 years. More than tech I think US will squeeze china from all the markets and ensure they remain as top economy.

Actually, it's the Americans who are smart. After Intel started floundering over their 7nm process, the govt brought in TSMC's 5nm production into the US. Trump did well there. Intel's 7nm and TSMC's 5nm are at similar levels though. But, with Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm and Apple making their chips entirely in the US, this has effectively allowed the US to monopolise the entire high end segment for now. The only way to break this monopoly is to create alternatives to these companies, better said than done.

As for China, with US IP no longer accessible, they are going to have to make their own IP. But considering they are already moving towards 10nm process using their own abilities, they are actually not far behind. And considering China already dominates 60% of the semiconductor market, which is set to increase, their fab plants will receive the funding necessary to move up to the 3nm and 2nm processes relatively quickly. The Chinese have 5+ years to catch up to TSMC's 3nm and 2nm processes. They likely have every intention to break the American monopoly, like Huawei's Kirin.

As for India, had we started even early on, say 2012 as we planned to initially, we could have tried to enter the silicon game. But now it's too late. All we can do now is to bring in fab plants that make 28nm and above where vast volumes of chips are actually made, play catch up after that, and aim towards next gen materials for high end applications, like GaAs and GaN.
 
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Bali78

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Its weird actually. We ie Indians tend to be a bit slow in putting our products in market. Most of the products that the best engineers among us build are usually of the type "Built by Indians in India BUT not Made in India" kind of products. This is true across the board. There are way too many quality Indian software engineers, even many are supporting many opensource projects BUT you wont find too many Indian companies actually selling "Made in India" softwares. They usually sell "Get it Built in India" kind of services : like outsourcing or offshore development.

It shows up in IP-core development equally. There are many companies or subsidairies that will take an outsourced project and will implement is pretty decently, but on one will dare implement their own ip-cores to sell.

I guess it might comes from a psychological block of extreme and over avoidance of risk. I call it "Anti-Enterpenureship". Even the promise that one will be paid at the end of project is more than enough for us to work but we won't work if there is a chance that product will run a risk of not being bought in market.

@Bali78 are you aware of any Indian companies selling IPs (cores/toolchain) like Broadcom or other fabless design houses do?
There is one company from Bangalore which sells a particular IP to Broadcom. But it’s like a drop in the ocean.
 

Bali78

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EE is declining in the west among native westerners. Mostly Chinese and Indians take up EE in the west.
Chip design is far more difficult and pay is comparatively lower than software. That’s the reason very few Americans are interested in chip design. Few years back my manager went to MIT to hire some fresh grads. There was a long queue for software positions and he had only 2 applicants to chose from 😂.
 

Gautam

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Pegatron, Tata to set up Apple products manufacturing plants in Tamil Nadu; jobs likely for 32,000 people


Tamil Nadu is expected to formalize agreements with Taiwan-based Pegatron and Tata Electronics around Pongal festival to facilitate establishing units to manufacture Apple products, multiple sources said.

By D Govardan
TNN
Updated: January 06, 2021, 13:39 IST

CHENNAI: Tamil Nadu is set to start 2021 on a positive note on the industrial investments front by signing two major MoUs, among others, in the electronics manufacturing segment in January. The state is expected to formalize agreements with Taiwan-based Pegatron and Tata Electronics around Pongal festival to facilitate establishing units to manufacture Apple products, multiple sources said.

The Taiwan-based Pegatron is the second largest manufacturer of Apple products and has chosen Mahindra City as the site for its proposed plant in India. It is likely to invest around Rs1,200 crore in the first phase to employ about 14,000 people. A subsequent phase will see the company doubling its investment and employment potential, sources with leading international property advisories said.

Yet another MoU will be signed by the government with Tata Electronics, which will make components for Apple products. It is investing Rs5,000 crore and will employ 18,000 people in the first phase. The company too has lined up higher investments and employment opportunities in subsequent phases. It has already broken ground and started construction work at GMR SEZ near Hosur in Krishnagiri district. The MoU will formalize the investment plans and tune it in line with the state government's investment incentives.

When contacted by TOI, state government officials declined to comment. "Nothing has been finalized yet and companies are generally in talks with more than one state," an official said. In the case of Pegatron, the Taiwan company's board had recently cleared the investment plan for a new plant in India to make iPhones. It was in talks with both Karnataka and Tamil Nadu.

Foxconn, Pegatron and Wistron are the three leading makers of phones for Apple. While Foxconn is already located near Chennai in Tamil Nadu, Wistron opted for Karnataka. Wistron's Karnataka operations recently witnessed a labour strife that resulted in arson and large-scale damage to property, even though the company said the manufacturing equipment remained safe.

The development seems to have convinced Pegatron to settle for a site in Tamil Nadu and it opted for Mahindra World City, a multi-product SEZ about 40 km south off Chennai on the GST Road. Both Pegatron and Tata Electronics are opting for the Government of India's production-linked incentives to drive exports.

In September, Tamil Nadu government unveiled its ambitious Electronic Hardware Manufacturing Policy seeking to transform the state into a globally competitive Electronics Design and Manufacturing (ESDM) destination. The policy sought to increase Tamil Nadu's electronics industry output to $100 billion by 2025 and to contribute 25% of total electronic exports to the world from India by that time. In order to promote electronic manufacturing clusters, Tamil Nadu has categorised the districts into Class A, B and C for administering state-level incentives. To cater to the workforce needs of the industry, the state has plans to train one lakh youngsters on skilled and semi-skilled streams.

Pegatron, Tata to set up Apple products manufacturing plants in Tamil Nadu; jobs likely for 32,000 people - ET Telecom
 
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_Anonymous_

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