Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,904
896
Mumbai
No, Dhanush had exact same failure mode during development trials.

Irrespective that still doesn't explain why we are buying a GHN45 derivative from Israel when Bharat52 is exactly the same thing.
Do dhanush is having 52 caliber version?
 

raghu1974

Member
Nov 19, 2020
118
94
Phoenix, AZ USA
There is no one else reporting other than Mr. Shukla. I fail to understand the intensions of this Patrakar from the Patrakar regiment. Either he is against Indigenization of weapon systems or a lobbyist for International weapon manufacturers or both. We know his political lineage, which is against the current dispensation. If you add all these, what you get is "Fake News". Even if he were to tell the truth, I will not believe him, unless it is backed by the MOD or the Armed Forces.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
2,176
2,799
United States
There is no one else reporting other than Mr. Shukla. I fail to understand the intensions of this Patrakar from the Patrakar regiment. Either he is against Indigenization of weapon systems or a lobbyist for International weapon manufacturers or both. We know his political lineage, which is against the current dispensation. If you add all these, what you get is "Fake News". Even if he were to tell the truth, I will not believe him, unless it is backed by the MOD or the Armed Forces.
His merit of the argument is quite simple, Is the GoI going to go through with the Elbit Athos, irrespective of the Ban?

This is quite apart from what seems odd to me was, India is buying a GHN45 derivative from Israel, all the while not directly buying it from Kalyani who now holds the IPR for the GHN45 based gun that has become the Bharat52.

Even odder is that Kalyani will build a GHN45 derivative based on tech transfer from Elbit/Soltam, instead of just building their own gun which is essentially the same, and which Indian Army could have customized better to suit it's own deployment based on it's close to 1 and half-century-year-old experience with artillery.
 

Ankit Kumar

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,489
2,274
Bangalore
His merit of the argument is quite simple, Is the GoI going to go through with the Elbit Athos, irrespective of the Ban?

This is quite apart from what seems odd to me was, India is buying a GHN45 derivative from Israel, all the while not directly buying it from Kalyani who now holds the IPR for the GHN45 based gun that has become the Bharat52.

Even odder is that Kalyani will build a GHN45 derivative based on tech transfer from Elbit/Soltam, instead of just building their own gun which is essentially the same, and which Indian Army could have customized better to suit it's own deployment based on it's close to 1 and half-century-year-old experience with artillery.
Finances at the core of this oddity? Read somewhere importing 400 Israeli Athos or French Trajans will be cheaper than the total cost being incurred on building Dhanush guns by OFB.
 

zapper

Well-Known member
Oct 10, 2019
412
312
US
His merit of the argument is quite simple, Is the GoI going to go through with the Elbit Athos, irrespective of the Ban?

This is quite apart from what seems odd to me was, India is buying a GHN45 derivative from Israel, all the while not directly buying it from Kalyani who now holds the IPR for the GHN45 based gun that has become the Bharat52.

Even odder is that Kalyani will build a GHN45 derivative based on tech transfer from Elbit/Soltam, instead of just building their own gun which is essentially the same, and which Indian Army could have customized better to suit it's own deployment based on it's close to 1 and half-century-year-old experience with artillery.
Kickbacks
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lolwa

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
2,176
2,799
United States
Finances at the core of this oddity? Read somewhere importing 400 Israeli Athos or French Trajans will be cheaper than the total cost being incurred on building Dhanush guns by OFB.
Highly improbable. But then again India Hai, Kuch bhi ho sakta hai.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,787
7,825
Bangalore
Elbit offers to build 70% of 155 mm artillery gun in India; at about half the cost of the indigenous ATAGS

After quoting far cheaper than French gunmaker Nexter in a government tender to supply the Indian Army with 1,580 artillery guns, Israeli firm Elbit Systems has written to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, sweetening its offer by promising to build 70 per cent of the weapon in India.



That is significantly higher indigenisation than the 50 per cent required for “Make in India” projects.



The Ministry of Defence (MoD) tender requires Elbit Systems to supply the first 400 of its ATHOS 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns in fully built or knocked-down condition, with no indigenisation requirements. The remaining 1,180 guns, which the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has to manufacture with transfer of technology (ToT) from Elbit, must be at least 50 per cent made in India.



Elbit’s letter, which Business Standard has reviewed, far exceeds that requirement. “We would like to confirm that Elbit Systems is committed to manufacture the ATHOS towed gun system in India, strictly and in full compliance of the ‘Make in India’ policy, with 70 per cent indigenisation (Indian value) within the contract of the first 400 towed guns,” it says.



For indigenising the first 400 ATHOS guns, Elbit has partnered the Pune-based Kalyani Group and its flagship, Bharat Forge. Once production of the Indian Army’s next 1,180 guns shifts to the OFB, Elbit and the Kalyani Group intend to continue building ATHOS guns together for the global market.



“We will take the required actions to brand the ATHOS as an Indian towed gun system, fully manufactured in India. Elbit is also committed to use its Global Supply Chains for export of the fully indigenous ATHOS gun, produced, assembled and tested in India to other countries around the globe,” states the letter, signed by Elbit’s vice-president, Yehuda Vered.



In addition to full ToT to enable OFB to build 1,180 guns, Elbit writes it has taken “very decisive, firm and committed steps” to partner Indian companies to indigenise the first 400 guns. These include establishing a joint venture (JV) with Bharat Forge called BF Elbit Advanced Systems Private Ltd; and a JV with Alpha Design Technologies called Alpha ELSEC Private Ltd. “Elbit Systems is also in the process of concluding a JV with Aditya Precitech Private Ltd, Hyderabad,” writes Elbit.



In its response to the MoD’s tender, Elbit System’s ATHOS gun turned out to be priced a whopping 40 per cent cheaper than the Nexter gun. Elbit quoted €477 million for 400 guns, compared to €776 million quoted by Nexter, say sources privy to the tender process.



That means each ATHOS gun is priced at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore per piece), while Nexter’s would cost €1.94 million or ~17.3 crore per piece.



At that price, the ATHOS is barely half the cost of the indigenously designed, developed and manufactured Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), which is estimated to be priced at close to ~20 crore per piece.



Perhaps for this reason, the MoD has kept the door open for importing the ATHOS, while the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) continues with trials of the ATAGS, which it is developing in public-private partnership with Bharat Forge and the Tata Group.



Business Standard had reported (November 30, Artillery import embargo put off, doors open for ~23,700 cr Israeli guns) that the MoD — which had earlier embargoed the import of all 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns from December 31, 2020 — reversed course on August 21 and permitted imports for another year, that is till December 31, 2021.



Buying 155 mm artillery for the army has proved extremely difficult since the controversial Bofors FH77B procurement in the late 1980s. Since these heavy guns proved to be a battle-winning weapon in the 1999 Kargil War, successive governments have tried in vain to conclude a contract for buying more. However, the reverberations of the Bofors scandal ensured that successive procurement attempts came to nought.



A breakthrough came only in March 2019, after three years of exhaustive trials, when Elbit’s ATHOS gun was declared the “preferred supplier/vendor” — the MoD’s terminology for the lowest qualified bidder (L-1).



However, a contract is still to be concluded. MoD sources say there is concern within the defence establishment that the low cost of the ATHOS might render the procurement of the indigenous ATAGS problematic later. Both of them are 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns but ATHOS’ cost is far lower.



There are also lower calibre guns under procurement, including the 155 mm, 39-calibre ultralight howitzer, of which 145 pieces are being procured from BAE Systems Inc. Besides that, the OFB is building 140 pieces of the Dhanush 155 mm, 45-calibre gun, which it has developed from the blueprints of the Bofors FH77B howitzer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustCurious

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
2,176
2,799
United States
Elbit offers to build 70% of 155 mm artillery gun in India; at about half the cost of the indigenous ATAGS




That means each ATHOS gun is priced at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore per piece), while Nexter’s would cost €1.94 million or ~17.3 crore per piece.



At that price, the ATHOS is barely half the cost of the indigenously designed, developed and manufactured Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), which is estimated to be priced at close to ~20 crore per piece.

In the normal world, once a system gets underway into production the cost of the system comes down. But ATAGS has DRDO and OFB involvement so VSA's and Value Engg, is out of the question, if anything gross incompetencies will only increase the price of the gun.

Just thinking this out loud: the case for a 20CR local gun (ATAGS/Bharat52)

Now, if the ATAGS was just built by Kalyani, (i.e. Bharat 52), it will be most likely as 15-20% OPM product, i.e for 1580 guns you are looking at 31600cr order. Today, as tall the bharat forge group stands it's total market cap is 25710 cr with markets at all time high while it's annual revenue's are around 8-10k cr. Assuming they will be able to build atleast 150 guns a year, that is an additional 3000 cr (close to 30-40$ gain in top and bottom line) Now that is quite a significant number for any Indian company.

If we look at this 20 cr, what happens with the additional 10cr we pay, First out of the 20Cr say at a 20% puts 4cr's taxable for each gun, i.e roughly 1.2cr per gun. So the government really gets back 1896cr in taxes, then there are additional advantages such as zero forex liabilities, all of the money invested stays in the Indian system, additional supply chain management companies that would cater to defense articles in India, jobs and more importantly it serves as a massive investment in the private defense industry. The Indian government has been buying defense equipment license-produced at a much higher price from PSU at the same exact rationale. I am all in for cancellation of Athos, and instead buying the Bharat52/Atags as long as they can keep OFB at bay.

@randomradio @nair
 
Last edited:

raghu1974

Member
Nov 19, 2020
118
94
Phoenix, AZ USA

In the normal world, once a system gets underway into production the cost of the system comes down. But ATAGS has DRDO and OFB involvement so VSA's and Value Engg, is out of the question, if anything gross incompetencies will only increase the price of the gun.

Just thinking this out loud: the case for a 20CR local gun (ATAGS/Bharat52)

Now, if the ATAGS was just built by Kalyani, (i.e. Bharat 52), it will be most likely as 15-20% OPM product, i.e for 1580 guns you are looking at 31600cr order. Today, as tall the bharat forge group stands it's total market cap is 25710 cr with markets at all time high while it's annual revenue's are around 8-10k cr. Assuming they will be able to build atleast 150 guns a year, that is an additional 3000 cr (close to 30-40$ gain in top and bottom line) Now that is quite a significant number for any Indian company.

If we look at this 20 cr, what happens with the additional 10cr we pay, First out of the 20Cr say at a 20% puts 4cr's taxable for each gun, i.e roughly 1.2cr per gun. So the government really gets back 1896cr in taxes, then there are additional advantages such as zero forex liabilities, all of the money invested stays in the Indian system, additional supply chain management companies that would cater to defense articles in India, jobs and more importantly it serves as a massive investment in the private defense industry. The Indian government has been buying defense equipment license-produced at a much higher price from PSU at the same exact rationale. I am all in for cancellation of Athos, and instead buying the Bharat52/Atags as long as they can keep OFB at bay.

@randomradio @nair
I agree with you 100%. But if OFB is sidelined, the left, the intellectuals of this country will stage a dharna and block road to Delhi. They will want PM Modi to resign. Can this country afford it? Hence there will be a certain % of the 1580, that may go to OFB for these things to not happen. That is what I think will happen eventually.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Milspec

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,904
896
Mumbai
Ha started chanting the "best in world" mantra, heard this many times in past with arjun & Tejas.
Butbthe stability of the system is impressive.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,626
8,875
India
In the normal world, once a system gets underway into production the cost of the system comes down. But ATAGS has DRDO and OFB involvement so VSA's and Value Engg, is out of the question, if anything gross incompetencies will only increase the price of the gun.

Just thinking this out loud: the case for a 20CR local gun (ATAGS/Bharat52)

Now, if the ATAGS was just built by Kalyani, (i.e. Bharat 52), it will be most likely as 15-20% OPM product, i.e for 1580 guns you are looking at 31600cr order. Today, as tall the bharat forge group stands it's total market cap is 25710 cr with markets at all time high while it's annual revenue's are around 8-10k cr. Assuming they will be able to build atleast 150 guns a year, that is an additional 3000 cr (close to 30-40$ gain in top and bottom line) Now that is quite a significant number for any Indian company.

If we look at this 20 cr, what happens with the additional 10cr we pay, First out of the 20Cr say at a 20% puts 4cr's taxable for each gun, i.e roughly 1.2cr per gun. So the government really gets back 1896cr in taxes, then there are additional advantages such as zero forex liabilities, all of the money invested stays in the Indian system, additional supply chain management companies that would cater to defense articles in India, jobs and more importantly it serves as a massive investment in the private defense industry. The Indian government has been buying defense equipment license-produced at a much higher price from PSU at the same exact rationale. I am all in for cancellation of Athos, and instead buying the Bharat52/Atags as long as they can keep OFB at bay.

@randomradio @nair

This is a fight between OFB and the private industry. And the victim in between is the IA. Lucky for them, both products are good.

I do support the induction of ATHOS, but I don't support its local production. ATHOS is currently among the most advanced guns in the world, and more importantly it has been developed by an established player. Otoh, ATAGS is going to be manufactured and maintained by first timers. Artillery requirements are so stringent that if the OEM fails to support it, the gun has no future. So the IA needs a balance between an established player and a bunch of first timers to keep the first timers in line. Which means, the maintenance and servicing benchmarks created by Elbit will be the ones for BF and Tata to beat. They will find it very hard to wriggle out of committments when there's an established player around to fulfill those committments. Plus, the IA gets access to a new supplier and a parallel line which allows for the parallel inductions of both ATAGS and ATHOS, and the IA needs all the help needed to shore up its artillery strength. The obvious difference in cost between the two is also important.

Apart from Dhanush and 150 ATAGS, the main requirement for towed guns is 1580. Out of which 1180 are expected to be produced in India. So 400 of those can be ATHOS while the remaining can be ATAGS. This way the IA gets supplies from an established player, multiple Indian players and also find a decent balance between cost and capability since the established player has the cheapest gun of the three, even cheaper than the Dhanush. During wartime, the Israeli support in terms of ammo and parts supplies and manpower for maintenance will be of immense help, which won't be available without the ATHOS. This will allow the IA to keep a lower amount of active stocks and save money.

One of the main operational and logistics advantages with buying Israeli guns, along with another 300+ M777s, is we will be able to dip our fingers into American and Israeli WWRs located in Israel. It's the fastest and cheapest way for us to replenish our stocks during wartime and 400 guns is enough of an investment to get access to those stocks. The fact that ATAGS can fire twice as many shells as its competitor in a minute won't matter during a war if the IA runs out of ammo. The reality today is we lack ammo, the bane of a third world economy.

We do not need to produce ATHOS for all the reasons you quoted.


I agree with you 100%. But if OFB is sidelined, the left, the intellectuals of this country will stage a dharna and block road to Delhi. They will want PM Modi to resign. Can this country afford it? Hence there will be a certain % of the 1580, that may go to OFB for these things to not happen. That is what I think will happen eventually.

They can make the Dhanush. The IA is still interested in a few hundred more guns. And OFB is working on the 52 cal version now. Plus there are other artillery requirements around like the MGS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot and Milspec