India - United States Relations

[RationalGuy]

Not possible for another 45 years. Indian metallurgical R&D is total stupid. May be import hot-parts from France or Russia and make Kaveri out of that. France was open for such in past.

45 years? Well from what I've seen from the info from @ShiroBarks maybe that number is a bit extreme. I believe if the Kaveri is re-ignited as a nationwide strategic programme, think something like Arihant class, we can achieve it. We will have a GE404 type engine with us. GE414 type engine is perhaps farther away.

 

[Subgradewalker]

so shall we call them as extra 10% sarkar ? current govt makes a lot of noise, they have taken some action on security front. But the fundamentals have not changed. Right from rampant corruption to zero reforms, spending more time on election campaigning than governance this govt more or less is same as old govt albeit they run ultra nationalist discourse (by ministers having kith & kin in US!) but fail to live up to it practically. We are simply stagnating just like we did during congress, there is motion but no progress. In last 10 years all they can boast about is article 370 and ram mandir, I bet they will keep bragging about it for next 20 years.

SInce you so adamantly believe that barring article 370, there have been no reforms.. Give me few areas of concern for you.

I will do the hard work and objectively search as to what measures have been taken and what reforms have been done. What has changed in implementation and providing services beyond policy paperwork.

I hope than you will give some substantial understanding of your claim that we are stagnating exactly like UPA era.

 

[Saaho]

45 years? Well from what I've seen from the info from @ShiroBarks maybe that number is a bit extreme. I believe if the Kaveri is re-ignited as a nationwide strategic programme, think something like Arihant class, we can achieve it. We will have a GE404 type engine with us. GE414 type engine is perhaps farther away.

Look, Arihant was possible because of massive help from Russia in PWR miniaturization. Basically Arihant was Ruskies teaching Indian shipbuilders how to build a nuclear sub.

Now if you want to do something similar, you gotta take help from a country that has engine hot part metallurgy figured out. And that is France or Russia.

 

[babablacksheep]

Look, Arihant was possible because of massive help from Russia in PWR miniaturization. Basically Arihant was Ruskies teaching Indian shipbuilders how to build a nuclear sub.

Now if you want to do something similar, you gotta take help from a country that has engine hot part metallurgy figured out. And that is France or Russia.

In terms of metallurgy, we already have that figured out for an f404 class engine.
The metallurgy is what allowed dry kaveri's creating.
The afterburner section while tricky is well within our grasp.
Its the "will" that is lacking.
And testing infra which delays shit because having to ship engine to russia then wait for months in line for a spot.

 

[redpanda]

In terms of metallurgy, we already have that figured out for an f404 class engine.
The metallurgy is what allowed dry kaveri's creating.
The afterburner section while tricky is well within our grasp.
Its the "will" that is lacking.
And testing infra which delays shit because having to ship engine to russia then wait for months in line for a spot.

While I'm rather cynical about it. How many years will it take if we start buliding those testing infrastructure today?

 

[Subgradewalker]

While I'm rather cynical about it. How many years will it take if we start buliding those testing infrastructure today?

In mission mode 3-5 years. That too by investing heavily in R&D + paying premium price for know how and know why transfer from some willing western/ russian company

 

[jetray]

SInce you so adamantly believe that barring article 370, there have been no reforms.. Give me few areas of concern for you.

I will do the hard work and objectively search as to what measures have been taken and what reforms have been done. What has changed in implementation and providing services beyond policy paperwork.

I hope than you will give some substantial understanding of your claim that we are stagnating exactly like UPA era.

you can start with reforms in bureaucracy, corruption has significantly increased compared to previous govt.

 

[Saaho]

In terms of metallurgy, we already have that figured out for an f404 class engine.

No.

The metallurgy is what allowed dry kaveri's creating.

Not yet good enough. Weight / thrust ratio of Kaveri are subpar and lets not even talk about life of the engine.

The afterburner section while tricky is well within our grasp.

Entire Kaveri has been in our grasp since 2005 or so, I do not buy it till it is flying in our aircrafts.

Its the "will" that is lacking.

Yes, the will to commit resources and patience to develop it.
The will to go one step at a time.

And testing infra which delays shit because having to ship engine to russia then wait for months in line for a spot.

Its again the part of will and committing to the project.

 

[screambowl]

I have said it earlier as well, S Jaishanker seems to be a blacksheep in Modi's cabinet, he is also responsible for sanctions on India due to his failed negotiations or deliberately sabotaging the negotiations. An oldest democracy sanctioning the biggest democracy for buying oil doesn't make any sense. Had it been for Sushma Swaraj, these sanctions would have not taken place. Doka La was perfectly handled by late Sushma Swaraj and NSA Doval.

Then on the Chinese front, he failed to signal India's messages to China which led to Doklam, which led to confusions, and failed to identify Chinese reaction. What he says doesn't match up with India's manovres it seems. Chinese and the Americans have studied him well, and does not take his words seriously. And only NSA Doval has to take things in hands every other time.

Luckily ,with respect to Indo Russian relations, NSA Doval has taken things in his hand and not left things to this looser to botch them.

S Jainshanker must be replaced with Meenakshi Lekhi ASAP. She is an extremely good negotiator and an elected leader in the government. Her working style is amazing.

 

[Subgradewalker]

I have said it earlier as well, S Jaishanker seems to be a blacksheep in Modi's cabinet, he is also responsible for sanctions on India due to his failed negotiations or deliberately sabotaging the negotiations. An oldest democracy sanctioning the biggest democracy for buying oil doesn't make any sense. Had it been for Sushma Swaraj, these sanctions would have not taken place. Doka La was perfectly handled by late Sushma Swaraj and NSA Doval.

Then on the Chinese front, he failed to signal India's messages to China which led to Doklam, which led to confusions, and failed to identify Chinese reaction. What he says doesn't match up with India's manovres it seems. Chinese and the Americans have studied him well, and does not take his words seriously. And only NSA Doval has to take things in hands every other time.

Luckily ,with respect to Indo Russian relations, NSA Doval has taken things in his hand and not left things to this looser to botch them.

S Jainshanker must be replaced with Meenakshi Lekhi ASAP. She is an extremely good negotiator and an elected leader in the government. Her working style is amazing.

Your take confirms that you've got no idea about IR. If only the world was so black and white as you imagine.

 

[screambowl]

Your take confirms that you've got no idea about IR. If only the world was so black and white as you imagine.

Your one liners aren't cool buddy.

Pattern is clear.

1. Indo US relations botched
2. India China relations botched ( Doklam)
3. Indian man got exposed in Chez republic in that Pannu case

S Jaishanker has served as ambassador in all three countries.

Should be very careful with the ties with Singapore.

 

[Saaho]

I have said it earlier as well, S Jaishanker seems to be a blacksheep in Modi's cabinet, he is also responsible for sanctions on India due to his failed negotiations or deliberately sabotaging the negotiations. An oldest democracy sanctioning the biggest democracy for buying oil doesn't make any sense. Had it been for Sushma Swaraj, these sanctions would have not taken place. Doka La was perfectly handled by late Sushma Swaraj and NSA Doval.

Then on the Chinese front, he failed to signal India's messages to China which led to Doklam, which led to confusions, and failed to identify Chinese reaction. What he says doesn't match up with India's manovres it seems. Chinese and the Americans have studied him well, and does not take his words seriously. And only NSA Doval has to take things in hands every other time.

I don't think it's Jaishankar at fault here. Both US and China have their axe to grind. Trump has caught even the closest allies blindside. I mean this is a lunch money stealing bully we are talking about.

S Jainshanker must be replaced with Meenakshi Lekhi ASAP. She is an extremely good negotiator and an elected leader in the government. Her working style is amazing.

Absolutely not. It will be a disaster.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Your one liners aren't cool buddy.

Pattern is clear.

1. Indo US relations botched
2. India China relations botched ( Doklam)
3. Indian man got exposed in Chez republic in that Pannu case

S Jaishanker has served as ambassador in all three countries.

Should be very careful with the ties with Singapore.

1. You've not idea what's happening in the world. My one liner was showing your lack of understanding of power politics beyond your narratives. I stand vindicated.
You have so conveniently put burden on India while neglecting US policies. How it has traded with its staunch allies in west and the Pacific.
They literally blackmailed japan, taiwan, korea, eu into committing billions of dollars while opening their sensitive markets at the same time.

You know why they come after India now? Because we didn't yield. We weren't beholden to US security. You know why? Cause of Jaishankar who took a stand for multipolar world, india as a pole, multi alignment, autonomy and independent foreign policy during 2020, when india was pressurised by whole EU and US in wake of Ukraine war.

Oh! You think china right? Well you've to go back to 2016 when trump started trade war with China. That hit China hard, but since then, china built resilience and self reliance. Now it can push back against US on all front such that US have to bend.
Now they are testing India and using indian domestic politics ( RG) to weaken govt. Let's see if BJP and india are capable of building resilience.


2. Indo-China botched? I didn't know we had such great relationship with china pre-2014. Oh! I forgot the secret mou b/w congress and CCP. I wonder if they wanted CCP like autocracy in India and were asking for pointers.

So, you're saying that our army and govt pushed chinese back when china was agressor.. so we botched the relationship? Hmm.. did we also botch relationship with pakistan? After all pakistan was a darling of UPA .
But they still waged 4 wars. I wonder...
On that note, you earlier praised Sushma Swaraj for doklam but now you're criticising it. Atleast be consistent. It's like interacting with an indian version of LX and Safriz.

3. I had no idea that Jaishankar led our agencies. Furthermore... You are holding him responsible for covert operations.. meanwhile, it's those same agencies that work 24/7 to protect us.

4. Lmao.. do you even know the workings of MEA. How many nations jaishankar has been posted to in various capacities? You wouldn't be able to point them on map, let alone teaching him diplomacy.
Experience doesn't come from going to bars but working on ground.


This is more than a one liner.. I might not sound cool.. but you do sound dumb-twitter esque narrative peddler with no knowledge or sense of IR.

 

[screambowl]

Absolutely not. It will be a disaster.

Absolutely not, it won't be a disaster. her functioning is way superior than S Jaishanker. It was already noticed during her time as MoS External Affairs. She understands the foreign policy with respect to Indian interest and voters as well.

Trump has caught even the closest allies blindside. I mean this is a lunch money stealing bully we are talking about.

It started even before Trump came. What Trump did with China during in his first term, Biden continued it, and it will be continued even when the successor of Trump assumes office.

You have so conveniently put burden on India while neglecting US policies. How it has traded with its staunch allies in west and the Pacific.
They literally blackmailed japan, taiwan, korea, eu into committing billions of dollars while opening their sensitive markets at the same time.

It is not me who has neglected US policies, it is the S Jaishanker who failed in that. Why do you think NSA Doval is handling Pakistan, China and Russia. Because from now onward you can't take risk of allowing this man to ruin the chess play by promising things which can't be fulfilled.

You know why? Cause of Jaishankar who took a stand for multipolar world, india as a pole, multi alignment, autonomy and independent foreign policy during 2020, when india was pressurised by whole EU and US in wake of Ukraine war.

BS!
It is not S Jaishanker who did that, this is not in his domain. NSA Doval and ministry of Trade Piyush Goyal and the IAS officers in charge were adamant and clear of not getting played for the sake of good diplomacy for the sake of good relations and not being submissive to the counterpart.

Oh! You think china right? Well you've to go back to 2016 when trump started trade war with China. That hit China hard, but since then, china built resilience and self reliance. Now it can push back against US on all front such that US have to bend.
Now they are testing India and using indian domestic politics ( RG) to weaken govt. Let's see if BJP and india are capable of building resilience.

Now even Indian govt thinks China is right lol. Trump started trade war with China and Biden continued it and it will be like that no matter who becomes the POTUS. That's nothing new.

They have been testing India and doing that since ages, nothing new. Should read about Iran India gas pipeline, who sabotaged it. Well I don't want to say much on that.

Indo-China botched? I didn't know we had such great relationship with china pre-2014. Oh! I forgot the secret mou b/w congress and CCP. I wonder if they wanted CCP like autocracy in India and were asking for pointers.

Because China says the agreement was done with British India on McMahon line not India, if today BJP in govt signs an agreement with China, and tomorrow Congress is in power China will says the agreement was signed with BJP leaders not your government. What answer do you have?
Infact BJP also knows this cunningness, so Congress under guidance of one of their leaders ( I won't name) who was China expert started this new tactic to not let China give any chance or excuse, so they started signing party based agreement and test it. Chinese under CCP does not believe under democracy hence a new tactic was being tested.

People like you are too naive to understand these manuevres. BJP may use it for their political move but they also understand it. Other solution is then war and you are not ready.

So, you're saying that our army and govt pushed chinese back when china was agressor.. so we botched the relationship?

They intentionally waited for him to be the foreign minister and then pick up fight with India. Then Sri Lanka crisis, there after Maldives and now B'desh crisis.

I do not disagree that foreign policy has been very aggressive but it is a collective step not restricted to MEA.

I had no idea that Jaishankar led our agencies. Furthermore... You are holding him responsible for covert operations.. meanwhile, it's those same agencies that work 24/7 to protect us.

No idea from where you got this and why are you writing this. You are again jumping the goalpost.

Lmao.. do you even know the workings of MEA. How many nations jaishankar has been posted to in various capacities? You wouldn't be able to point them on map, let alone teaching him diplomacy.

There is particular post in order of precedence from there onwards officers have to deliver as they are in decision making, only that is important. Something which is already known to foreign agencies on his postings, is not a confidential information.

 

[Saaho]

Absolutely not, it won't be a disaster. her functioning is way superior than S Jaishanker. It was already noticed during her time as MoS External Affairs. She understands the foreign policy with respect to Indian interest and voters as well.

I will not even go into debate, but let me put in this way, even if God himself is your minister of external affairs, it will not matter. And in fact someone who has dealt with these buffoons in Washington since almost an entire decade, Jai Shankar still knows how to proceed marginally better. The fault is in Washington and no amount of finesse in New Delhi will do anything here.

Washington is playing to loose, so anyone which engages with them will loose.

It started even before Trump came. What Trump did with China during in his first term, Biden continued it, and it will be continued even when the successor of Trump assumes office.

It's not just one country ie India. Canada had an excellent relationship with USA in trade and military and now look at what kind of circus is running there. So did Europe. So did Australia. Now the very existence of NATO is being called into question and AUKUS is completely lost.

A change of guards in Washington will certainly change policies. US can not exist for long by making an enemy of everyone. And that includes India too.

Meanwhile, India should do what China did in Trump 1.0. Find more alliances to offset USA. Find more deals. Find more places to sell what business will be lost in USA. India needs UK sized deals with rest of members of EU. And with GCC. Instead of offering so many concession to USA, offer it to multiple countries and get better market access there. Diversify our exports. In commodities and destinations. Make things cheaper.

American soybean farms are collapsing, their nascent EV industry will collapse due to restriction in magnet supply, inflation is already sky rocketing and will go way worse. Brazil have replaced American soybeans in China. And it looks like more Brazilian products will show up in China.

next leadership will have to fix things, not because they love India, because they have to answer Americans. They can not afford to keep entire world as antagonistic to them.

 

[jetray]

You have got to back your claims.

Not sweeping allegations like corruption has increased. Otherwise how would you want me to start.
I can simply say corruption has decreased for central services. Most have been digitized with less human interaction, less bribes, less middlemen.
DBT, UPI are the flagship decisions.

And which Beauracracy? Any particular central ministry? IAS,IPS? The state Beauracracy? The kind of reforms that needs 2/3rd majority?

Or subtle changes like bring DcPP and MM model for DRDO.
Post of CDS streamlined.
Digital governance.

I will give you my own example I went through 2 days ago. So, i am back in my village in rural parts of Rajasthan for rakshabandhan. And what happened was that our lights went off and the electrician we called told us that it's the fault from electricity departments side. Some issue with wiring or connection from transformer.

Now based on my past experience, i dialed the number of powerhouse office to see if they can send someone if available. That's when I got to know that our areas service has been linked with JVNNL, the dept which maintains jaipur area electricity.
So, all I got to do was:

1. Open mobile.
2. Download bijlimitra app
3. File a complaint
4. The help desk team from JVNNL then processes it and transfers it to one of the FRT team near our area.
5. FRT team took 30min to arrive and solve the issues
6. Meanwhile, i found contact info of JEn,AEn, ARO on app itself.

If this is not a reform, than what is? I didn't have to go through hassle of insisting the powerhouse staff, no extra chai money to the electrician that would have come at short notice for us. No chik chik, no jhik jhik. Smooth solution!

I am adding the screenshot I took right now, with my complaint number. Try it.

Also please tell me what reforms other than these type you're talking about?

P.S. Can you describe what better experience you had during UPA regime vis a vis Beauracracy?

Yeah keep peppering with rubbish apps & rules while this govt shows no action.. BJP got booted out in karnataka in elections, it was known as 40% commission govt. Zero action was taken by BJP high command. ppl are complaining that they need to pay bribe to get GST registration number while the govt is shouting from rooftops about increasing revenue collection.

You can have all those shiny apps but there****** is zero intention****** of taking any action. What did the current govt do to against the judge who was caught with money burning in his house?

 

[Hydra]

I have said it earlier as well, S Jaishanker seems to be a blacksheep in Modi's cabinet, he is also responsible for sanctions on India due to his failed negotiations or deliberately sabotaging the negotiations. .

When i said this about Jaishankar some three years back, nobody had supported me. This fellow thinks that he is an EAM from a superpower who can rant against any country whenever he wants. The way he spew harsh words against Europe says everything, this same chap was silent when on china during 2020 incident. Single handedly sabotaged the necessary needed western support to us against china. Mark my word china will repeat another dokalam type once they finishes Taiwan.

 

[jetray]

Mark my word china will repeat another dokalam type once they finishes Taiwan.

That is expected to happen , we are living on borrowed time. Another thing is tibet might also flare up.

 

[Saaho]

Mark my word china will repeat another dokalam type once they finishes Taiwan.

Look, the game of geopolitics now a days is like dating life in 2025. You have someone with whom you take pics and are seen around and you have someone whom you *censored*.

Similarly, you may be trading with China and following trade interests together because it helps you and apparently it helps China too. You will be cooperating with Quad partners when it comes to military. And you will balance it out like that only.

Meanwhile you build moats that makes attacking you really stupid. Hopefully, Chinese are a bit less stupid than Americans.

Meanwhile next time when Pakistan attacks, you literally flay them, make their military leadership feel pain personally, blow up all of the DHAs and go full town on them without any of this "surgical" bullshit. Punish tom and teach harry.

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958001197123842321