IAC-2 Future Aircraft Carrier Project - News & Discussions

randomradio

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The whole idea of dominating These Choke
Points is to stop Chinese oil supplies
During war

But Nobody has thought of two factors

1 Russia and China have a oil pipeline and
China can manage to do without Gulf Oil if it
Creates sufficient Reserves

2 Russia and China are looking to Acquire
Venezuela

If that happens China will say Goodbye to Gulf oil
The idea behind dominating the choke points is to maintain vigil on movement of navy ships, and during war, sink them.
 

randomradio

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He is basically talking about this.

It's the CATOBAR version of the QEC. The QEC is an "ESTOBAR". :ROFLMAO:

We do not need a ski ramp to operate the F-35B, as we can see here, but the ramp decreases the takeoff distance.

The Russian carrier is more interesting. It's both CAT and STO.


If the QEC can be made both CAT and STO, then we will be able to operate Mig-29K/F-35B and Rafale/F-35C/SH/F/A-XX from it.
 

Gautam

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For future aircraft carrier, Navy homes in to electric propulsion, could use hybrid system

Navy Chief says three carriers needed so that at least two are operational at any given time.

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Jul 25, 2019, 06.15 PM IST
1564225852587.png

Photo : A CGI of INS Vikrant(IAC-1) by The Navy's DND.

The Navy is homing in on electric propulsion for a planned future aircraft carrier, with a hybrid system likely to be considered for development, most likely in partnership with a US based partner. Navy Chief Admiral Karambir Singh confirmed on Thursday that that electric propulsion is being considered but did not give any timelines for the project.

“Our plan is to build a 65,000 tonner, possibly with electric propulsion and CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take off but Arrested Recovery) so that if we have three aircraft carrier, at least two will be operational at any given time,” the Navy chief said at the side-lines of a seminar on warship building by FICCI.

India currently has the INS Vikramaditya (bought from Russia) operational while the second carrier, to be named INS Vikrant is under construction at the Cochin Shipyard Limited. Both these carrier are based on the STOBAR concept – Short Take Off but Arrested Recovery.

Sources have told ET that the Navy is considering hybrid electric propulsion for the third aircraft carrier being planned for the future. While the carrier – still in the concept stage – will be conventionally powered, the Navy foresees a huge requirement for electric power that will necessitate a hybrid propulsion system.

Sources said that the Virginia, US based Huntington Ingalls – the sole designer and builder producer of American aircraft carriers - could be roped in for a consultant for the future Indian warship plan. India and the US have an official Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation that has been meeting to work on the project.

The Indian project however has not yet been given financial clearances by the government even though the Navy has been pushing ahead, bringing out the increasing challenges in the Indian Ocean Region as well as the steady build up of the Chinese Navy.

Huge electric power is also required as the Indian Navy is considering Electro-Magnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) for the future carrier – a new technology that can launch much heavier aircraft from the deck.

While in the US, the EMALS system is powered by nuclear energy, the Indian Navy is desisting from going nuclear, perhaps as indigenous technology is still not available.

Then Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba told ET in December 2018 that the 65000 ton, CATOBAR carrier will be conventionally powered and is `central to the Navy’s philosophy to have three aircraft carrier battle groups’.

The defence ministry is however going slow on what some consider a prohibitively expensive naval program, with officials suggesting optimal utilization of resources for other critical purchases – like submarines and advanced frigates. By conservative estimates, the cost of construction of the carrier itself, without the aircraft, would exceed Rs 70,000 crore.

Indian Navy: For future aircraft carrier, Navy homes in to electric propulsion, could use hybrid system - The Economic Times
 

Gautam

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Bali78

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Mostly e

Mostly electrical ones like the Gerald R Ford class.
Steam catapult is 60s tech and needs lots of fresh water to operate.
It's difficult to control the output force of steam catapult over a wide range. This results in over stressing of aircraft frames and reduction of airframe life span. EMALS can be tuned over a wide range and hence suitable for operating wide variety of aircrafts of different weight category. However the cost is too high (800 million $) and reliability of the system is yet to be proven.
 

Ashwin

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Britain pitches strongly for role in building India’s next aircraft carrier; navy says it's "a dilemma"

Battles are raging around the Indian Navy’s proposed third aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, even though it is still on the drawing board. There is a bitter inter-services debate over whether India can afford another carrier. And the navy is also weighing competing claims from the US and the UK over who should provide design expertise.

Since 2015, the US Navy has guided the design of INS Vishal. But now, UK’s Royal Navy is offering its partnership on the grounds that INS Vishal is more similar to a British aircraft carrier than an American one.

In January 2015, the Indian and US navies established a joint working group (JWG) on aircraft carrier cooperation, with New Delhi reasoning that the US Navy has long been the world’s pre-eminent builder and operator of aircraft carriers. America operates 11 of the world’s 21 carriers and, by far, the most potent ones.

However, on November 28, in an India-UK meeting in New Delhi chaired by the two defence secretaries, London proposed British design consultancy for INS Vishal, given the recent induction of two new state-of-the-art aircraft carriers – Her Majesty’s Ship (HMS) Queen Elizabeth II and HMS Prince of Wales – into the Royal Navy.

Encouraged by the US, the Indian Navy has designed INS Vishal as a large, 65,000 tonne carrier, featuring a state-of-the-art American “electromagnetic aircraft launch system” (EMALS), and the ability to launch not just fighter aircraft, but also the game-changing E2D Hawkeye airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft.

The US Navy’s continuing influencing could lead India to buy Northrop Grumman’s E2D Hawkeyes, but also Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in an ongoing purchase of 57 naval fighters.

However, the UK has pointed out that the Indian decision to have full-electric propulsion, rather than nuclear propulsion for INS Vishal, makes it similar to the two Royal Navy carriers, which feature electric propulsion. All US aircraft carriers are nuclear powered.

Furthermore, the British have pointed out that INS Vishal will be exactly the same size – 65,000 tonnes – as the two Royal Navy carriers. US Navy carriers are far larger, at about 100,000 tonnes.

However, a standard US feature that is designed into INS Vishal will differentiate it from British carriers. Both HMS Queen Elizabeth II and HMS Prince of Wales incorporate “short take off but arrested landing” (STOBAR) systems to operate their aircraft. Their on-board F-35C fighters take off from a ski-jump and land back by snagging their tail hooks on arrester wires laid across the deck, which then unspool, dragging the fighter to a halt on the 200-metre-long deck.

INS Vishal, however, like all US carriers, incorporates a “catapult take off but arrested landing” (CATOBAR) system. In its latest EMALS version, the aircraft is accelerated to take-off speed with the help of an electromagnetic catapult (older US carriers use a steam catapult), while it lands the same way as on STOBAR vessels, using arrestor wires.

INS Vishal, which the navy terms “Indigenous Aircraft Carrier – 2” (IAC-2), will therefore be a hybrid vessel, combining American and British features.

“The broad contours of IAC-2, to be constructed in India, will be a 65,000-tonne CATOBAR carrier with electric propulsion,” stated navy chief, Admiral Karambir Singh, on Tuesday.

Queried by Business Standardabout whether the US or the UK would provide design consultancy for INS Vishal, Singh admitted it was “a dilemma.”

“The issue about nuclear propulsion versus full electric propulsion [is one factor]. There are also other issues like EMALS and AAG (aircraft arrester gear), which only the Americans have. So this is going to be one of our dilemmas on how to handle this consultancy – who all to approach. So we will have to work on this more carefully,” said Singh.

Asked whether consultancy was possible with both UK, and US, Singh admitted: “I’m not sure of the answer; how you go about it? But we will have to think through this.”

For London, this is a mouth-watering opportunity not just to enter a lucrative, multi-billion dollar construction programme, but also to restore flagging defence relations. The Royal Navy shaped the Indian Navy in its formative years, with British admirals heading the Indian Navy until 1958. India’s first two aircraft carriers – INS Vikrant and INS Viraat – were both purchased from the Royal Navy.

Last week, in the India-UK Defence Consultative Group, UK officials pressed for reviving the strategic relationship. They promised deeper technology transfer, unlike the straight-up US defence sales that have provided India with little high technology.

“Partnering the UK in no way jeopardises the Indo-US relationship, or damages interoperability in the Indo-Pacific. Britain is America’s closest ally,” said a senior UK official, contrasting this with buying weaponry from Russia.

The British side is also learned to have pitched strongly to participate in building India’s next six submarines under Project 75-I. “We have not bid in that project, because the Royal Navy only operates nuclear subs. However, we can offer systems and niche technologies that greatly enhance a submarine’s capabilities. And we will be willing to transfer real technology,” said the official.
 

Bon Plan

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It's difficult to control the output force of steam catapult over a wide range. This results in over stressing of aircraft frames and reduction of airframe life span. EMALS can be tuned over a wide range and hence suitable for operating wide variety of aircrafts of different weight category. However the cost is too high (800 million $) and reliability of the system is yet to be proven.
Steam catapult are used for dozen years without many problems.
US carrier used their steam catapults from light Skyhawk to heavy Vigilante.
Maybe EMALS is the tomorrow tech, but steam remains a strong value. Specially with nuclear powered carrier.
I would like to see IN choosing the UK for consultancy.
For STOBAR may be.... but they lose a lot of their skill during the gap between last Harrier carrier and now.
for CATOBAR, no more. It's only mastered those days by USN and french navy.
 

BMD

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I have a prediction, In ten years 'Royal' Navy will not be able to afford operating two carriers. One QE class will be up for sale! :geek:

By then we could retire Vikky with its ~20 years of service.

Thus, I would like to see IN choosing the UK for consultancy.

@BMD @Milspec @vstol Jockey @Parthu @Gautam
I disagree with the first part but we could build you a carrier too, there already is a CATOBAR version designed based on the same hull.

French aircraft carrier PA2 - Wikipedia

PA2 (French: Porte-Avions 2, "Aircraft Carrier 2") was a planned aircraft carrier under development by Thales Naval France and DCNS for the French Navy. The design was based on the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers developed for the Royal Navy.
And BTW, STOVL carriers are far cheaper to operate.
 
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Bon Plan

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I disagree with the first part but we could build you a carrier too, there already is a CATOBAR version designed based on the same hull.

French aircraft carrier PA2 - Wikipedia



And BTW, STOVL carriers are far cheaper to operate.
True for 75000T CATOBAR : it's ready to built !

STOVL are cheaper, but the STOVL planes are limited in range+load combo. Very limited.
Add to that the lack of early warning long range plane in STOVL version.

It's not an easy choice.... Price versus Capacity.
 

BMD

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True for 75000T CATOBAR : it's ready to built !

STOVL are cheaper, but the STOVL planes are limited in range+load combo. Very limited.
Add to that the lack of early warning long range plane in STOVL version.

It's not an easy choice.... Price versus Capacity.
STOVL planes have a higher sortie rate and offer safer operating conditions in rough seas. IFR solves range issues.
 
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Has anyone tried using a quasi CATOBAR on a STOBAR deck?
Yes, the Chinese have with their Type 001A carrier.
images (32).jpeg



Yes, the Chinese have with their Type 001A carrier.
images (32).jpeg
This is just a representation, not sure whether the Type 001A will actually have catapults.
If there are catapults then most probably they are electro magnetic catapults as steam catapults take quite a lot of space.