GTRE Kaveri Engine

[marich01]

I made distinction in the model to pursue two seperate engine development.
1. State led
2. Private led

The thing is given structure and mindset of our MoD and its extended arm ie psu MIC, a pvt led engine development is unlikely since the product may not find a user. This is ignoring the obvious caveat of required resource for such a (first time) development work to proceed which no pvt entity would be willing to or want to take. Even the jv route has not happened with foreign oem which would be basically a licence prod via pvt line due to strategic nature of jet engine tech and lack of order prospect. The enabling / supporting ecosystem of supplier & vendor industries is also not enough developed within the country. There are few niche companies doing specific work in the country but often the defence ecosystem have shunned those before as a close guarded industry (NDA signing for all work, issue with timeline and very erratic order schedule etc).

As for the state led, still no jv agreement signed in 2025. that should answer the question. Govt also do not see value in it, because sustaining the same need too much resource they would rather allocate to panic buying and cut off the maintenance up-keeping part.

 

[Subgradewalker]

The thing is given structure and mindset of our MoD and its extended arm ie psu MIC, a pvt led engine development is unlikely since the product may not find a user. This is ignoring the obvious caveat of required resource for such a (first time) development work to proceed which no pvt entity would be willing to or want to take. Even the jv route has not happened with foreign oem which would be basically a licence prod via pvt line due to strategic nature of jet engine tech and lack of order prospect. The enabling / supporting ecosystem of supplier & vendor industries is also not enough developed within the country. There are few niche companies doing specific work in the country but often the defence ecosystem have shunned those before as a close guarded industry (NDA signing for all work, issue with timeline and very erratic order schedule etc).

As for the state led, still no jv agreement signed in 2025. that should answer the question. Govt also do not see value in it, because sustaining the same need too much resource they would rather allocate to panic buying and cut off the maintenance up-keeping part.

I am only commenting on the optimal route for engine development. Not saying govt is taking one.

As for defense ecosystem.. there are two phases in engine development.

A) One is design and prototype. During that phase, the private players will learn a lot, realise what things they need and can spread the intent their needs through academic Collab, presenting the gaps to govt, msme unions etc.. which helps the society on building the ecosystem. And just because one consortia is leading the development , doesn't mean individual industry players cant focus on scaling their capabilities to embed into supply chain.

You see, that's the difference b/w a state led initiatives and private led.. private led initiatives create demand, and that demand opens up avenues for many people to embed themselves into supply chain. This phase is a long term project.

2nd phase. Induction and production. That means you've got a working engine , certified. Unlike state beauracracy.. private players create production lines faster and start sooner. Since they don't need to wait to push files.

Then there two possible outcomes:

a) It's superior or sooner than state led initiative. Order will come ( govt needs to support, which helps in development of private aerospace industry) it does it for many other industry and it has shown willingness to support private sector in every critical domain.

B) either it's late or inferior to state led ( good for India for having good engine) but still, that's why I mentioned that private led initiative should be with a JV with a firm with experience in advanced engine. While state can go for a blank sheet with a partner with expertise in foundation but not 5th gen or 6th gen yet. Complimenting strengths.

So, even in a less desirable for IAF.. it will still be a very potential engine and the tech absorbed will have trickle down effect in Indian engineering space. As for direct monetary matters, African, south asian, and many other nations will prefer a relatively cheaper, well built engine even if it's not the best of the world. It fits their operational needs and since we have home grown expertise in airframe, aesa radar and other components.. private sector with license from either DRDO or HAL can even make a export version of FA. Or just export engines at lower cost. There will be many takers who don't wanna be dragged into us-china high value tussle but still want some capability.


That's what turkey is banking on. But our advantage over turkey is that our armed forces have very strict user trials.. and most of this systems they end up inducting proves their decision to be correct. Which has domino effect on psyche of other nations too.

 

[marich01]

I am only commenting on the optimal route for engine development. Not saying govt is taking one.

Whoever is taking up the development work, it needs to have a primary goal, in this case using the engine on a jet. Which is why kaveri was started somewhat alongside tejas program. Govt side for long saw value in license mfg rather than single or multiple engine programs. With that sort of priority , a very critical strategic multi domain multi industry tech like engine dev becomes more of a TD kind like Kaveri now, not serious enough work like the missiles program.
Moreover the engine products were ready-made available in world market, small catchment pool (only Rus french UK and usa) but still available. If the entire engine sourcing route is closed somehow only then the govt would think seriously about it.

As for defense ecosystem.. there are two phases in engine development.

Development stage in the industry will primarily think about whether the deliverables can be achieved within a certain time frame because primary OEM can not sustain continuous R&D capex, they have to find a product out of it. But a Govt side like ours, plenty of projects are just shelved at some point without thinking about recouping the investment or any tangible product being delivered because the Govt can (with justification) spread that cost on masses via tax, steady stream of income.

So whichever phase you want to talk about, one side pvt OEM side would at least want its material capex covered if it had to exit or would develop the product and market it. Therefore the urge is much greater because there is a market waiting for it.
The same wrt a Govt side, here the top decision maker see value in something else. This factor influence the development stage too. if it comes then good, if its not then we got alternatives.

IAF is the user, they would not bother with tech absorption or anything else. Their concern is about using it, sustain for long lifetime, maintenance, ease of operation, spares stock etc. How much it cater to domestic industry capability is not a matrix for their concern during wartime.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Whoever is taking up the development work, it needs to have a primary goal, in this case using the engine on a jet. Which is why kaveri was started somewhat alongside tejas program. Govt side for long saw value in license mfg rather than single or multiple engine programs. With that sort of priority , a very critical strategic multi domain multi industry tech like engine dev becomes more of a TD kind like Kaveri now, not serious enough work like the missiles program.
Moreover the engine products were ready-made available in world market, small catchment pool (only Rus french UK and usa) but still available. If the entire engine sourcing route is closed somehow only then the govt would think seriously about it.


Development stage in the industry will primarily think about whether the deliverables can be achieved within a certain time frame because primary OEM can not sustain continuous R&D capex, they have to find a product out of it. But a Govt side like ours, plenty of projects are just shelved at some point without thinking about recouping the investment or any tangible product being delivered because the Govt can (with justification) spread that cost on masses via tax, steady stream of income.

So whichever phase you want to talk about, one side pvt OEM side would at least want its material capex covered if it had to exit or would develop the product and market it. Therefore the urge is much greater because there is a market waiting for it.
The same wrt a Govt side, here the top decision maker see value in something else. This factor influence the development stage too. if it comes then good, if its not then we got alternatives.

IAF is the user, they would not bother with tech absorption or anything else. Their concern is about using it, sustain for long lifetime, maintenance, ease of operation, spares stock etc. How much it cater to domestic industry capability is not a matrix for their concern during wartime.

Yeah. And with America reawakening our anti-us institutional memory in present with GE404 Fiasco, UK bring UK, Russian tech regressing year on year and increasing Chinese influence on its supply chain.. India actually doesn't have a great lot of options when it comes to reliable sources. And the window is closing down for uninterrupted trade supply chains.

Your point on using engine for a jet (AMCA) is agreeable and fits into the private industry development too. And, I believe it's high time we take propulsion systems as a critical project in itself. Rather than locking in an airframe and then customising the engine, it's better to set certain parameters for the engine and then customise the airframe. " This is the path private consortia should take, not necessarily govt who can go on with established procedure.
In the meantime we've got TASL,L&T getting hands on experience on FA production. Reliance was apparently in talks for building domestic commercial planes, which can work as capacity building for FA airframe engineering in itself.


The profits: Your point of pvt players having more urgency is what I am counting on to deliver a good product and at the same time pushing DRDO too. Because, and here it's more about psychology, ego etc.. because DRDO , HAL takes pride in being the frontier defense tech provider of India. That has also given them a sense of superiority and leverage. A private competition would risk the very foundation of their monopoly and leading to govt having leverage to push for reforms, snatching some of the ungodly hold they have over armed forces. This alone will make them work atleast a bit faster and sincere.

I did cover that private players will need hand holding initially , hence carefull choice of partner. Then you've got export potential from every component of the engine. From metallurgy to Engineering. While IAF doesn't care about domestic industry.. the profit eyeing consortia will do as will govt.

Its not hard to get back the value of investment through profits. You just need to take the risk. The risk averse nature of private industry has what led to the current hollowness of our kirana industry.
Govt can provide loans etc, build export channels through MEA.. returns on engine won't be tough when IAFs demand is only going to increase. Future Autonomous Aircrafts will also need a lot of engines.

Private players have a lot of ways to profit from it. Wether it's advanced machinery, coatings, alloys..

 

[marich01]

The profits: Your point of pvt players having more urgency is what I am counting on to deliver a good product and at the same time pushing DRDO too. Because, and here it's more about psychology, ego etc.. because DRDO , HAL takes pride in being the frontier defense tech provider of India. That has also given them a sense of superiority and leverage. A private competition would risk the very foundation of their monopoly and leading to govt having leverage to push for reforms, snatching some of the ungodly hold they have over armed forces. This alone will make them work atleast a bit faster and sincere.

Quite sure it is not the only angle and definitely psu lot will face very little heat from such effort. They go hand in hand, defence biz nature is such it was deliberately kept out of clutches of pvt industry bar a few co in select geographical location & with connection. A pvt industry can develop something and offer it but 100% certain it would not be accepted.
See in this development phase, even the lead dcpp has to involve drdo /qa / govt psu nominated people at every single stage from pre bid meet to first proposal submit within 15 days of order placement (not even going into how the order process go) to scheduling to material procurement, test certificate submit, sample testing with QA people present, then batch qualification, inspection again when start, proto making with nominated engg looking at various stages, when the FOPM is ready even its inspection the dcpp depend on nominated QA they can no hire in consultant on their own.

So basically, even if pvt effort all round, it must be done in close coordination (read in dev agency/drdo/user terms) with Govt side being the last word in the whole process. Impossible for a pvt effort to flourish in this ecosystem. occasionally you get one Baba Kalyani, Satyendra Nuwal or Walchand Hirachand but overall the environment is not favourable for pvt business. it has changed a little due to active Govt encouragement but the ecosystem is still very much in shape & practice , it fights back and will almost certainly revert to old habit with the first chance.

Private players have a lot of ways to profit from it. Wether it's advanced machinery, coatings, alloys..

This part if for another discussion, the gain is marginal given the effort needed to upkeep the same (machinery, maintenance, trained manpower, amc, parts spare availability, import cases restriction many factors).

 

[Subgradewalker]

Quite sure it is not the only angle and definitely psu lot will face very little heat from such effort. They go hand in hand, defence biz nature is such it was deliberately kept out of clutches of pvt industry bar a few co in select geographical location & with connection. A pvt industry can develop something and offer it but 100% certain it would not be accepted.
See in this development phase, even the lead dcpp has to involve drdo /qa / govt psu nominated people at every single stage from pre bid meet to first proposal submit within 15 days of order placement (not even going into how the order process go) to scheduling to material procurement, test certificate submit, sample testing with QA people present, then batch qualification, inspection again when start, proto making with nominated engg looking at various stages, when the FOPM is ready even its inspection the dcpp depend on nominated QA they can no hire in consultant on their own.

So basically, even if pvt effort all round, it must be done in close coordination (read in dev agency/drdo/user terms) with Govt side being the last word in the whole process. Impossible for a pvt effort to flourish in this ecosystem. occasionally you get one Baba Kalyani, Satyendra Nuwal or Walchand Hirachand but overall the environment is not favourable for pvt business. it has changed a little due to active Govt encouragement but the ecosystem is still very much in shape & practice , it fights back and will almost certainly revert to old habit with the first chance.


This part if for another discussion, the gain is marginal given the effort needed to upkeep the same (machinery, maintenance, trained manpower, amc, parts spare availability, import cases restriction many factors).

Ah yes! The old system. It sucks and has stopped Innovation in India.

But that's more the reason for govt to give go ahead to a private consortia for parallel program. It just requires political will. After that, the rich companies have many methods at their hands to thwart babus.

After that one signature of accepting proposal.. which doesn't need a dcpp. See, dcpp is a new thing specifically by govt to encourage pvt players to enter. DRDO didn't want it but they had to relent.

Now that private firms have been getting hands on experience from different different projects, I believe that they are ready to take a ambitious project. And govt can back then by offering soft loans or back channel promise to bail em out. If you include startups and private academic institutions owned by rich.. you can beat babus. The hand holding I am talking about is with a willing foreign partner. The private led initiative should have no involvement of DRDO or PSUs. They will have their own development.

Reliance, tata, birla, mahindra etc.. none of them lacks money. Not a bit. They just keep buying lands cause they don't know what to do with it. Time for them to build labs on those lands. Even IT giants can be roped in to create proprietary software for various purposes. Will give them some experience in creation too.

And even RAGA won't be able to fear monger because even his donors will be getting profits from it.

P.S. yes it was deliberately kept in clutch by IG. But that doesn't mean that it always has to be. Govt has undone many mistakes of past. This can be undone too.

 

[RationalGuy]

Whoever is taking up the development work, it needs to have a primary goal, in this case using the engine on a jet. Which is why kaveri was started somewhat alongside tejas program. Govt side for long saw value in license mfg rather than single or multiple engine programs. With that sort of priority , a very critical strategic multi domain multi industry tech like engine dev becomes more of a TD kind like Kaveri now, not serious enough work like the missiles program.
Moreover the engine products were ready-made available in world market, small catchment pool (only Rus french UK and usa) but still available. If the entire engine sourcing route is closed somehow only then the govt would think seriously about it.


Development stage in the industry will primarily think about whether the deliverables can be achieved within a certain time frame because primary OEM can not sustain continuous R&D capex, they have to find a product out of it. But a Govt side like ours, plenty of projects are just shelved at some point without thinking about recouping the investment or any tangible product being delivered because the Govt can (with justification) spread that cost on masses via tax, steady stream of income.

So whichever phase you want to talk about, one side pvt OEM side would at least want its material capex covered if it had to exit or would develop the product and market it. Therefore the urge is much greater because there is a market waiting for it.
The same wrt a Govt side, here the top decision maker see value in something else. This factor influence the development stage too. if it comes then good, if its not then we got alternatives.

IAF is the user, they would not bother with tech absorption or anything else. Their concern is about using it, sustain for long lifetime, maintenance, ease of operation, spares stock etc. How much it cater to domestic industry capability is not a matrix for their concern during wartime.

The scale of Chinese developments in fighter jets and their engines is largely because as you said they don't have half the fuqqin world and their mothers trying to self them such technologies like India does. Except Russia nobody wanted to give them 4th gen tech, so they just went ahead and did it by themselves largely. All the while their enemies Taiwan, India, Korea, Japan got top of the line western jets.

If in the past and today, no country would offer it's jets to India including Russia while Pakistan kept getting American and Chinese jets, India would have 100% poured tens of billions of dollars in aerospace development for jets and engines and we would have had an ecosystem by now. If India had no access to French or Russian jets, by now Tejas would have been in the hundreds with Kaveri engine and hell maybe even AMCA would be in flight testing imo. Not having a choice at all is the greatest driver of doing something

 

[ShiroBarks]

But Let's see, I hope the F414 works out. But...

We stand vindicated

Now I just hope for that M88 version deal

 

[Tatvamasi]

We stand vindicated

Now I just hope for that M88 version deal

Sure, lets delay it for 5 more years. Better to cancel it and wait for AMCA.

 

[ShiroBarks]

Sure, lets delay it for 5 more years. Better to cancel it and wait for AMCA.

We have engine for AMCA

And will AMCA form most of our fleet?

 

[_Anonymous_]

We stand vindicated

Now I just hope for that M88 version deal

As of now the Trump administration hasn't queered the pitch as far as strategic decisions go. The dispute is purely economic as of now .

If the Trump administration actually ditches long standing agreements to this effect , then all bets are off.

As of writing this post that's not the case. Hopefully things will never reach there as from our PoV this issue with the US couldn't have come at a worse juncture.

 

[RationalGuy]

As of now the Trump administration hasn't queered the pitch as far as strategic decisions go. The dispute is purely economic as of now .

If the Trump administration actually ditches long standing agreements to this effect , then all bets are off.

As of writing this post that's not the case. Hopefully things will never reach there as from our PoV this issue with the US couldn't have come at a worse juncture.

I doubt Trump would go that far but let's see.

 

[Subgradewalker]

As of now the Trump administration hasn't queered the pitch as far as strategic decisions go. The dispute is purely economic as of now .

If the Trump administration actually ditches long standing agreements to this effect , then all bets are off.

As of writing this post that's not the case. Hopefully things will never reach there as from our PoV this issue with the US couldn't have come at a worse juncture.

The piece written by his close advisor Peter Navarro on FT suggests otherwise.

 

[RationalGuy]

The piece written by his close advisor Peter Navarro on FT suggests otherwise.

If Trump crushes these deals then all ties between India and the US is over forever.

 

[Subgradewalker]

If Trump crushes these deals then all ties between India and the US is over forever.

Not if import loving UPA can come to power.

The attack of democratic institutions are classic CIA playbook for regime changed

 

[TARGET]

In today's scenarios, where dogfighting is out of the equation and we only require a platform to fire weapons from a standoff range, what will be the impact of a poor thrust-to-weight ratio engine? We should develop the Kaveri with an existing afterburner section, or the M88 afterburner should work fine, and maybe work on the development of the Mk2 twin engine as a jugad.

 

[babablacksheep]

In today's scenarios, where dogfighting is out of the equation and we only require a platform to fire weapons from a standoff range, what will be the impact of a poor thrust-to-weight ratio engine? We should develop the Kaveri with an existing afterburner section, or the M88 afterburner should work fine, and maybe work on the development of the Mk2 twin engine as a jugad.

Its not just for dogfight.
The effect is pretty significant, take off performance, cruise performance, fuel efficiency all will be negatively impacted.


Also wvr combat chances are significant, and as demonstrated by operation sindoor, capability of out maneuvering and out running bvr missiles is important.

 

[TARGET]

Its not just for dogfight.
The effect is pretty significant, take off performance, cruise performance, fuel efficiency all will be negatively impacted.


Also wvr combat chances are significant, and as demonstrated by operation sindoor, capability of out maneuvering and out running bvr missiles is important.

Once you have the engine specs, you will try to build around that specification, so I don't think there will be a big difference in performance, but yes, it may be fuel efficiency and maintenance-related issues. Again, you have to start from somewhere for the indigenous program. And once we start using it, we will work on refinement. But I doubt if our dry Kaveri is ready or not, and can we have an after-burning section to generate 81 kN thrust flat-rated?

 

[babablacksheep]

Once you have the engine specs, you will try to build around that specification, so I don't think there will be a big difference in performance, but yes, it may be fuel efficiency and maintenance-related issues. Again, you have to start from somewhere for the indigenous program. And once we start using it, we will work on refinement. But I doubt if our dry Kaveri is ready or not, and can we have an after-burning section to generate 81 kN thrust flat-rated?

I don't think GOI will initiate a twin engine tejasmk2 program.

 

[Hydra]

If Trump crushes these deals then all ties between India and the US is over forever.

Its the mistake of we Indians that we had choose GE engine for mk2 program. EJ200 is far more advanced and had better growth potential than F414 (then and now also) when we had choose f414 EJ200 over cost. Political uncertainty from US is another aspect. Still we choose that engine without foresight.

A blunder decision by india when we had choose F414, i said this in another forum belongs our western neighbourhood.