A Person

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I think this talk of M88 for Tejas is based on a confusion between Safran's work on the Kaveri and the M88. There was never any question of using the M88 on the LCA so I'd be really surprised if that happened.
 
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Bali78

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Unless it happens it didn't happen. Too many speculations and not all are going to come true. It all depends on how much France is willing to offer and how much we can spare to spend on french goods. We all wont be privy to information about backroom meetings.
Somehow Ashish's information about Rafale negotiation was pretty close. The numbers he provided during negotiation, were fairly accurate.
 

Desi Lover

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For all those who thought France will revive Kaveri engine project..
Macron’s engine offer for Tejas aimed at powering more Rafale sales – Indian Defence Research Wing
Looks like they did not or could not get kaveri to run and are offering M88 variants.
All those reports of Kaveri reaching optimal thrust has turned out to be rumors. So frustrating.. Goodbye Kaveri
 
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Kshithij Sharma

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For all those who thought France will revive Kaveri engine project..
Macron’s engine offer for Tejas aimed at powering more Rafale sales – Indian Defence Research Wing
Looks like they did not or could not get kaveri to run and are offering M88 variants.
All those reports of Kaveri reaching optimal thrust has turned out to be rumors. So frustrating.. Goodbye Kaveri
First of all, who told you that M88 technology is going into Kaveri? Second, what is the logic to say that M88 a 50/75kN engine can power Tejas MK2 which requires 65/100kN engine? How can such glaring difference in thrust be adjusted?

Please stop making up your own fantasy stuffs. Kaveri is fully made by India with minimum consultancy from France. France is not giving anything else. So, this article about M88 is irrelevant.
 
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Shekhar Singh

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For all those who thought France will revive Kaveri engine project..
Macron’s engine offer for Tejas aimed at powering more Rafale sales – Indian Defence Research Wing
Looks like they did not or could not get kaveri to run and are offering M88 variants.
All those reports of Kaveri reaching optimal thrust has turned out to be rumors. So frustrating.. Goodbye Kaveri
It's "The week" article. They are lobbying for GE414.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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First of all, who told you that M88 technology is going into Kaveri? Second, what is the logic to say that M88 a 50/75kN engine can power Tejas MK2 which requires 65/100kN engine? How can such glaring difference in thrust be adjusted?

Please stop making up your own fantasy stuffs. Kaveri is fully made by India with minimum consultancy from France. France is not giving anything else. So, this article about M88 is irrelevant.
There is a component within the Rafale contract for reviving the indigenous Kaveri engine programme. At what stage is this at?
I cannot comment because at this stage, discussions are going on. We are supporting it. Safran is part of the Rafale team. That would give work to Indian agencies as well as Indian industries to support Dassault. The integration for the new engine, which will be seleted by the Indian side, is a good project but the contract is not yet decided.

What role does Dassault have in the engine programme?

We have the design know-how. We will support the integration of this new engine in this new aircraft. The main actor in this, of course, is Safran which has the capability to design engines like they did with our M88 engine that is fitted on our Rafale. It is a big deal if they will join with Indian agencies or the Indian industry to develop an engine. There is a need.

Rafale H of Indian AirForce : News and Discussions
 

Kshithij Sharma

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That is also my point- France has to develop a brand new engine. Reviving Kaveri was really not the case from the beginning. The brand new engine could be the one for 5th generation aircraft (AMCA). The timelines for Tejas simply don't allow for France to develop a new engine. Kaveri K9must be fully Indian. Only the 5th generation K10 may be jointly developed.

since neither France nor India have 5th generation engine but limited till 4th generation engine, it is a good opportunity to share development costs and jointly develop a 5th generation engine with full IP for both parties.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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That is also my point- France has to develop a brand new engine. Reviving Kaveri was really not the case from the beginning. The brand new engine could be the one for 5th generation aircraft (AMCA). The timelines for Tejas simply don't allow for France to develop a new engine. Kaveri K9must be fully Indian. Only the 5th generation K10 may be jointly developed.

since neither France nor India have 5th generation engine but limited till 4th generation engine, it is a good opportunity to share development costs and jointly develop a 5th generation engine with full IP for both parties.
You conform the Universe to the idea that you make of it
 
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Kshithij Sharma

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You conform the Universe to the idea that you make of it
You conform the Universe to the idea that you make of it
It is a guess/deduction from the limited data I have. As I get more data, I will update my stance. As of now, I find it unbelievable that M88 can be ever used in Tejas. The size and thrust simply are the deal breakers.

The facts are not mine and if you can give additional information, I may change my stance
 
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Desi Lover

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First of all, who told you that M88 technology is going into Kaveri? Second, what is the logic to say that M88 a 50/75kN engine can power Tejas MK2 which requires 65/100kN engine? How can such glaring difference in thrust be adjusted?

Please stop making up your own fantasy stuffs. Kaveri is fully made by India with minimum consultancy from France. France is not giving anything else. So, this article about M88 is irrelevant.

How do you know?

what I said was based on the report
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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It is a guess/deduction from the limited data I have. As I get more data, I will update my stance. As of now, I find it unbelievable that M88 can be ever used in Tejas. The size and thrust simply are the deal breakers.

The facts are not mine and if you can give additional information, I may change my stance
We said several time here that M88 is not an engine, only, but a family of engine studied to have a thrust between 7.5 t and 11 t using the same core. We already have made a version at 9t for the UAE but they didn't want to pay for the Rafale intake modification needed (72kg/s instead of 65kg/s). There is no difficulties to make a 11t version on this basis or to use it for the Kaveri wich is derivated from M-88 very long ago!
To day with improved technology it is even possible to add 10% which give 12.1 t. The problem is you don't want to believe it.
 

Kshithij Sharma

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The problem with your theory is the historical data of time required to develop an engine of certain thrust even when one has all the engine manufacturing technology. I am just speaking of the developmental time to find the right dimensions of various parts, right spacing between parts, right amount of bypass etc. Each of these data need to be developed from scratch
How do you know?

what I said was based on the report


It is impossible to have the same core and make it change thrust except by increasing bypass. Increasing bypass too much will result in theengine becoming a civilian passenger aircraft engine and will be bulky in size.

Even if it was true that same core can be used for a higher thrust engine, I don't understand how it could have helped Qatar. Rafale is designed to have engines of certain size and certain airflow. If the diameter of fans increase or the airflow inlet size increases, the fuselage will have to be redesigned. That will require major redesign.

I can agree that France can make bigger engines, but the above two points are something I have serious doubts about. I need proper sources to confirm that this is true and not just a "hope"
We said several time here that M88 is not an engine, only, but a family of engine studied to have a thrust between 7.5 t and 11 t using the same core. We already have made a version at 9t for the UAE but they didn't want to pay for the Rafale intake modification needed (72kg/s instead of 65kg/s). There is no difficulties to make a 11t version on this basis or to use it for the Kaveri wich is derivated from M-88 very long ago!
To day with improved technology it is even possible to add 10% which give 12.1 t. The problem is you don't want to believe it.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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The problem with your theory is the historical data of time required to develop an engine of certain thrust even when one has all the engine manufacturing technology. I am just speaking of the developmental time to find the right dimensions of various parts, right spacing between parts, right amount of bypass etc. Each of these data need to be developed from scratch



It is impossible to have the same core and make it change thrust except by increasing bypass. Increasing bypass too much will result in theengine becoming a civilian passenger aircraft engine and will be bulky in size.

Even if it was true that same core can be used for a higher thrust engine, I don't understand how it could have helped Qatar. Rafale is designed to have engines of certain size and certain airflow. If the diameter of fans increase or the airflow inlet size increases, the fuselage will have to be redesigned. That will require major redesign.

I can agree that France can make bigger engines, but the above two points are something I have serious doubts about. I need proper sources to confirm that this is true and not just a "hope"

It's not my Theory, it's not a hope it's something existing and tested, and which was proposed to UAE.


https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com/file/download/fiche_m88_2011_ang_hd.pdf

There is the same bypass ratio 0.3 And Safran said it's the same core. The new dimentions are slighty bigger but fit inside Rafale without modifications, only Intake need some very light modification.
 
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Desi Lover

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The problem with your theory is the historical data of time required to develop an engine of certain thrust even when one has all the engine manufacturing technology. I am just speaking of the developmental time to find the right dimensions of various parts, right spacing between parts, right amount of bypass etc. Each of these data need to be developed from scratch



It is impossible to have the same core and make it change thrust except by increasing bypass. Increasing bypass too much will result in theengine becoming a civilian passenger aircraft engine and will be bulky in size.

Even if it was true that same core can be used for a higher thrust engine, I don't understand how it could have helped Qatar. Rafale is designed to have engines of certain size and certain airflow. If the diameter of fans increase or the airflow inlet size increases, the fuselage will have to be redesigned. That will require major redesign.

I can agree that France can make bigger engines, but the above two points are something I have serious doubts about. I need proper sources to confirm that this is true and not just a "hope"

It really does not seem like Kaveri has any future. France has used its M88 cores according to Ashish from another thread. If thats true, its mostly french engine then.
 

Shashank

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Safran to set up unit in Telangana

The firm and TS government sign MoU in New Delhi
Safran Electrical & Power, a global leader in electrical systems in aeronautics, would set up a unit for electrical wiring interconnection systems in Telangana.

The manufacturing facility, to be set up with an investment of ₹52 crore in the Special Economic Zone of Hyderabad airport, is expected to create over 250 employment opportunities, said an official release on an MoU the firm and the Telangana government signed on Saturday.

Safran CEO Philippe Petitcolin and Telangana Industries Secretary Jayesh Ranjan signed the MoU in the presence of French Foreign Affairs Minister M.Le Drian, Union Commerce Minister Suresh Prabhu and Telangana IT and Industries Minister K.T. Rama Rao, at the Indo-French Economic Partnership signing ceremony in New Delhi.

“In the next twelve months, Safran Electrical & Power will deliver the first LEAP electric harnesses made in India and destined for the flourishing of narrow-body aircraft market,” the Safran Group said in a separate release. The Hyderabad facility would be an integral part of the Group’s strategy to establish itself in India to serve an “extremely buoyant local market as well as the existing European and American markets”.

Mr. Petitcolin said, “The new facility reasserts our commitment to products made in India and it completes our industrial grid in the region with a new, high performance production site.” Employing more than 13,000 people in 12 countries, Safran Electrical & Power is a part of the EUR 16.5 billion French multinational Safran Group that operates in the aircraft propulsion and equipment, space and defence markets.

The announcement on opening of the factory in India came in the backdrop of the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron. “The factory’s production will also make it possible to meet any potential needs of the programmes in which the Group is involved in, in the region,” the release said.

The State government would be facilitating Safran E&P and its affiliate Safran Electrical & Power India to obtain necessary permissions, registrations, approvals and clearances as per the existing facilities, rules and regulations.
 

Kshithij Sharma

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It's not my Theory, it's not a hope it's something existing and tested, and which was proposed to UAE.


https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com/file/download/fiche_m88_2011_ang_hd.pdf

There is the same bypass ratio 0.3 And Safran said it's the same core. The new dimentions are slighty bigger but fit inside Rafale without modifications, only Intake need some very light modification.
Thanks for the chart. Now things are clear.

The core can't be same as the bypass has remained the same whereas the diameter of the fan increased 15% from 27.5inch to 31inch. This also resulted in increase in area by over 25%. The length too has increased by 2%. The airflow rate also has increased by 10%. However, the point to be noted is that the Temperatue is still 1850K

Since bypass is the same, it is very difficult to imagine how so much air can be pulled into the same core and that too without increase in temperature. Also, why is the size increasing? I also find it hard that such increase in size can be accomodated in Rafale without redesign of fuselage? One should consider that Rafale is twin engine which mean that both engines will now be bigger.

Since you have provided the chart, I will agree that Safran has made a 90kN engine but I still can't understand why you claim it is same core. Also, the volume by formula (pi)x(r^2)x(h) for M88-4 is (pi)x(15.5^2)x(142) = (pi)x34115.5 whereas for EJ200 is (pi)x(14.5^2)x(157)= (pi)x33009 which is lower.

Mod Edit : Removed the unwanted part of the post......
 
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Herciv

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"
Ashish has simply become a troll. Don't bother about what he says.
"
Ashish and some others (Vstol, picdel, random, gessler) are the reasons why so many peoples come here to understand what's happenned in India. They're clear, factual, precise and don't try to reduced people to what they're not.
 

Herciv

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@Herciv I have noted that this forum only has a select few people and does not attract people from outside. It is more like a cabal of a group of people who go everywhere together. Random Radio is a troll for that matter. Picdel appears to be decent and rational person. I am not sure of Gessler (haven't observed his posting at all). Vstol is also decent.

I have been following these conspiracy theories for some time and I can confidently say that I can predict Modi govt better than these conspiracy theories. Rational people think alike. There is only 1 most rational path and that path will be followed by anyone who is rational.
o_Oo_O Fortunately you're here helping us to find the truth ...
Perhaps should you take into account, perhaps of course, that numerous nations are represented here, indian of course, pakistanese, English, us, France, canadian, chinese from time to time ...
 

Kshithij Sharma

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o_Oo_O Fortunately you're here helping us to find the truth ...
Perhaps should you take into account, perhaps of course, that numerous nations are represented here, indian of course, pakistanese, English, us, France, canadian, chinese from time to time ...

Actually, this is universal logic, not just Indian.

The problem with Indian engine program is the unavailability of rhenium for making 2nd and 3rd generation SCB. India has the ability to make SCB and Directionally solidified blades but the most critical element here is rhenium. This was also the reason why China found it difficult to develop a 5th generation engine.

India has the ability to make engines upto 4th generation (TWR of 8) which does not require rhenium usage. Since the problem here is with rhenium supply, I have been shouting for some time that it is extremely unwise to get engines from France. If India can't get rhenium on its own, then getting entire engine or core from outside hardly makes sense.

The military assets are meant to be fully under the control of India and not meant as foreign guarantee. Hence fitting an engine which India will not be able to repair, make on its own is not meaningful.

So, it is simply irrational to suggest things like Safranised Kaveri or M88 core etc. When someone regularly insists on it without giving proper details, he simply becomes a troll
 
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