Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

randomradio said:
Yeah, but the MGS is at least 15 years away. Any business deal before MGS should go to the Leo 2, it will benefit France as well, by making MGS cheaper. In the meantime, while MGS is being developed alongside SCAF, Germany selling Leo 2s is the same as France selling Rafales. I don't see any difference here. In the future, all those Rafale customers can become SCAF customers after all. And all the Leo 2 customers will buy MGS.

If France has an immediate need, then you should buy some K2, it will piss the Germans off. It's the equivalent of Germany going for the F-35. "If you buy the F-35, then we'll buy K2. But if you buy Rafale, we will buy Leo 2." Pretty good idea right there.

While I agree with France's problems with SCAF and the unreliability of the Germans in this field, it's almost the opposite when it comes to tanks. It doesn't make sense for Europe to go for different tank designs.

Unlike fighter jets, all this ego-driven agenda will ensure Europe can't afford a tank army rivalling the Russians in the future. Europe's gonna need 4000-5000 active duty tanks going forward.
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We have a Franco-German solution that bypasses Rheinmetall and that was presented at the 2018 EuroSatory land armaments show, to illustrate the good understanding between the two manufacturers Nexter and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann [KMW]. They unveiled the Euro Main Battle Tank [EMBT], a tank that combines the chassis of the Leopard 2A7 with the 120mm self-loading turret of the Leclerc, and was presented as a "short-term response" to operational requirements in terms of "high-intensity" combat.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
This increases the likelihood that we will sell the Rafale to Saudi Arabia, because if Germany were to join the GCAP it is likely that it would authorise the sale of Typhoons to the Saudis, the unpleasant counterpart being that they will not leave the SCAF.
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So worst case for France, the Germans clear the Typhoon, stay with SCAF and France loses the Rafale deal with the Saudis.

And best case for France, the Germans don't clear the Typhoon, exit SCAF, fail to get into GCAP and France get s big deal with the Saudis.

And then everything in between. It's like a soap opera.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
If the Germans leave SCAF and now that we're out of FGFA program with the Russians, should we join the French SCAF program and develop our 6th gen fighter in co-development with them? @randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @Picdelamirand-oil what's your take on this?
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Picdel and I have discussed this, AMCA as a TD for SCAF with India joining as a major partner. The only problem is we don't have that kind of money. We can't afford to pay for Western levels of R&D nor pay equivalent salaries, that could cause serious disagreements between the employees, enough to cause a serious security risk. Nor will the industry agree to share work when the objective of AMCA is self-reliance.

The best we can do is become a 10 or 20% partner, but we won't get much out of that. Most of the expensive core R&D will still be carried out by France, and production workshare will still involve imports, with France denying ToT of core tech as usual. A better option is to just import 2-6 squadrons based on need after it's developed, and they will offer the same level of ToT as a JV regardless in case we want 6 squadrons.

Anyway, the IAF is all for 100% self-reliance from here on out. Only the IN market is negotiable. If ADA fails to develop a next-gen naval jet, then we will be forced to import SCAF. Or IN could enter a JV as a small partner, that's more justified.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
We have a Franco-German solution that bypasses Rheinmetall and that was presented at the 2018 EuroSatory land armaments show, to illustrate the good understanding between the two manufacturers Nexter and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann [KMW]. They unveiled the Euro Main Battle Tank [EMBT], a tank that combines the chassis of the Leopard 2A7 with the 120mm self-loading turret of the Leclerc, and was presented as a "short-term response" to operational requirements in terms of "high-intensity" combat.
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It's an option, but unproven in the face of new realities created by Russia versus operationally and battle-proven tanks like K2 and Leo2A7.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
This increases the likelihood that we will sell the Rafale to Saudi Arabia, because if Germany were to join the GCAP it is likely that it would authorise the sale of Typhoons to the Saudis, the unpleasant counterpart being that they will not leave the SCAF.
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ANd the weird sensation that the rafale sell to Saudi Arabia is a gift to france from germany ...
mamamiiia ...
 
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A Person said:
lol

www.thetimes.co.uk

Germany may abandon €100bn fighter jet project with France

Germany is considering abandoning its flagship €100 billion future combat jet project with France and joining a rival programme with Britain instead, The Times
www.thetimes.co.uk www.thetimes.co.uk

lmao
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Deep inside, Germans are like the Germany from. 1940s minus Nazism, they just want to destroy rest of the Europe's military infra.
Rajput Lion said:
If the Germans leave SCAF and now that we're out of FGFA program with the Russians, should we join the French SCAF program and develop our 6th gen fighter in co-development with them? @randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @Picdelamirand-oil what's your take on this?
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You have nothing to offer to French other than delay, red tapes, lack of clarity & peanut money.
 
randomradio said:
Picdel and I have discussed this, AMCA as a TD for SCAF with India joining as a major partner. The only problem is we don't have that kind of money. We can't afford to pay for Western levels of R&D nor pay equivalent salaries, that could cause serious disagreements between the employees, enough to cause a serious security risk. Nor will the industry agree to share work when the objective of AMCA is self-reliance.

The best we can do is become a 10 or 20% partner, but we won't get much out of that. Most of the expensive core R&D will still be carried out by France, and production workshare will still involve imports, with France denying ToT of core tech as usual. A better option is to just import 2-6 squadrons based on need after it's developed, and they will offer the same level of ToT as a JV regardless in case we want 6 squadrons.

Anyway, the IAF is all for 100% self-reliance from here on out. Only the IN market is negotiable. If ADA fails to develop a next-gen naval jet, then we will be forced to import SCAF. Or IN could enter a JV as a small partner, that's more justified.
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Yeah, valid points(y). But what about a big size heavy-weight stealth fighter for our future Air Dominance Role? Should we go solo on that too? Chinese are looking for their J-XX 6th gen heavy-weight stealth ASF to become operational from next decade onwards, as are the Americans. AMCA is medium class. Shall we increase the size of AMCA MK2 for it to carry 8 AtA missiles internally along with 10 tonnes of fuel to match our eastern enemy? Even though it may end up replacing MKI 1 for 1, yet a true MKI replacement will always be a Heavy-weight fighter and not any medium weight.
 
Rajput Lion said:
Yeah, valid points(y). But what about a big size heavy-weight stealth fighter for our future Air Dominance Role? Should we go solo on that too? Chinese are looking for their J-XX 6th gen heavy-weight stealth ASF to become operational from next decade onwards, as are the Americans. AMCA is medium class. Shall we increase the size of AMCA MK2 for it to carry 8 AtA missiles internally along with 10 tonnes of fuel to match our eastern enemy? Even though it may end up replacing MKI 1 for 1, yet a true MKI replacement will always be a Heavy-weight fighter and not any medium weight.
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For now Rafale and AMCA are enough. Both jets will buy ADA enough time to develop a new jet. Worst case, we can opt for an emergency purchase of the Su-57M2 or the F-35A as stopgap. NGAD may also become a stopgap option. ADA could very easily start on a new one in 2035+ and get it done by 2050 or so.
 
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randomradio said:
For now Rafale and AMCA are enough. Both jets will buy ADA enough time to develop a new jet. Worst case, we can opt for an emergency purchase of the Su-57M2 or the F-35A as stopgap. NGAD may also become a stopgap option. ADA could very easily start on a new one in 2035+ and get it done by 2050 or so.
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F35A is not on offer, and nevwr it will be. Thanks to s400 purchase. SU-57,yeah if you want to say sayanora to west.
 
Rajput Lion said:
Yeah, valid points(y). But what about a big size heavy-weight stealth fighter for our future Air Dominance Role? Should we go solo on that too? Chinese are looking for their J-XX 6th gen heavy-weight stealth ASF to become operational from next decade onwards, as are the Americans. AMCA is medium class. Shall we increase the size of AMCA MK2 for it to carry 8 AtA missiles internally along with 10 tonnes of fuel to match our eastern enemy? Even though it may end up replacing MKI 1 for 1, yet a true MKI replacement will always be a Heavy-weight fighter and not any medium weight.
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French are not making any big size heavy weight fighter. NGF is similarly sized as AMCA with similar capability. Besides AMCA will already have more endurance than MKI due to more efficient engines and nearly same fuel carrying capability with fuel tanks in its internal bay. Regarding payload, already its payload capability is close to MKI but the fact that it shall operate as a system with CATS & Ghatak, the overall payload of the system will be much higher. This system shall be enough to deal with whatever chinese will be making as Jxx. Also, IAF has always preferred to pack the performance of heavier fighter in smaller sized ones.
Its the french who should be looking to buy AMCA from us now that the NGF is going nowhere and IMO their plan B is nothing more than reviving Rafale mk2 (similar to Tedbf) which was cancelled long ago.
 
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Hydra said:
F35A is not on offer, and nevwr it will be. Thanks to s400 purchase. SU-57,yeah if you want to say sayanora to west.
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The S-400 was only an excuse. They canceled the deal with Turkey due to politics.

Buying some Su-57 won't change anything. All we have to do is ask the US for an equivalent that can compete with the J-20. If they don't, then even they can't complain. We are even open to buying bombers and SSNs from Russia.
Arpuism said:
French are not making any big size heavy weight fighter. NGF is similarly sized as AMCA with similar capability. Besides AMCA will already have more endurance than MKI due to more efficient engines and nearly same fuel carrying capability with fuel tanks in its internal bay. Regarding payload, already its payload capability is close to MKI but the fact that it shall operate as a system with CATS & Ghatak, the overall payload of the system will be much higher. This system shall be enough to deal with whatever chinese will be making as Jxx. Also, IAF has always preferred to pack the performance of heavier fighter in smaller sized ones.
Its the french who should be looking to buy AMCA from us now that the NGF is going nowhere and IMO their plan B is nothing more than reviving Rafale mk2 (similar to Tedbf) which was cancelled long ago.
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NGF is Flanker-sized, 33T. AMCA is Rafale-sized, 25T.
 
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randomradio said:
NGF is Flanker-sized, 33T. AMCA is Rafale-sized, 25T.
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French navy requirements have limited NGF to 30T which is closer to 25T AMCA rather than over 35 T flankers. Since the empty weight of NGF is expected to over 15 T in comparison to 12-13 T AMCA, the fuel capacity & payload shall be nearly equivalent. Besides the length of NGF is 18m comparable to 17.6 m of AMCA rather than over 20m flankers.
Bon Plan said:
NGF seems bigger.
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Only slightly. NGF is 18m long while AMCA is 17.6m so no major difference.
 
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Arpuism said:
French navy requirements have limited NGF to 30T which is closer to 25T AMCA rather than over 35 T flankers. Since the empty weight of NGF is expected to over 15 T in comparison to 12-13 T AMCA, the fuel capacity & payload shall be nearly equivalent. Besides the length of NGF is 18m comparable to 17.6 m of AMCA rather than over 20m flankers.

Only slightly. NGF is 18m long while AMCA is 17.6m so no major difference.
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Gotta see then. But initial reports said heavy.
 
Arpuism said:
Perhaps those reports said heavy with regard to Rafale & typhoon which are infact quite “lighter” in terms of empty weight and dimensions than NGF.
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The Rafale's airframe is almost as light as that of the Gripen and yet it is capable of carrying out missions comparable to those of the SU-30 MKI. So we don't need a very heavy aircraft to call it "heavy".

Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

Tigermeet 2023 is off to a flying start 👌Direction Gioia Del Colle with 3 Mirage2000D RMVs and 3 Rafale F4.1 (photo credit ECE 01-030 Côte d'Argent) 🇨🇵
www.strategicfront.org www.strategicfront.org
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
The Rafale's airframe is almost as light as that of the Gripen and yet it is capable of carrying out missions comparable to those of the SU-30 MKI. So we don't need a very heavy aircraft to call it "heavy".

Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

Tigermeet 2023 is off to a flying start 👌Direction Gioia Del Colle with 3 Mirage2000D RMVs and 3 Rafale F4.1 (photo credit ECE 01-030 Côte d'Argent) 🇨🇵
www.strategicfront.org www.strategicfront.org
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Exactly thats why I said NGF isn’t envisaged to be flanker sized.
 
Arpuism said:
French navy requirements have limited NGF to 30T which is closer to 25T AMCA rather than over 35 T flankers. Since the empty weight of NGF is expected to over 15 T in comparison to 12-13 T AMCA, the fuel capacity & payload shall be nearly equivalent. Besides the length of NGF is 18m comparable to 17.6 m of AMCA rather than over 20m flankers.

Only slightly. NGF is 18m long while AMCA is 17.6m so no major difference.
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Wait and see what will be NGF.
As for now only a mock up shown in Le Bourget aero show... the final result may be different, as it was possible to see on several pictures released month and years ago by Dassault.

For exemple the serialy produce Rafale is smaller and lighter than the Rafale A demonstrator. Why? because the lighter it is, the less costly it is. (and because M88 was smaller than F404 also :cool:)
 
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