French Navy upgrade and discussion

it’s secret. if i tellya zen i have to killya

(…) The nuclear boiler room transmits the energy from the core, in the form of steam transported by the secondary circuit, to the turbo-alternators and the propulsion turbine, to propel the ship and supply it with electrical energy.
Maybe I'm misreading your question, or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but...

Isn't steam involved either way? What the NEP setup does is to use a silent electric motor to turn the shaft instead of noisy reduction gearing. But it still needs the steam to juice the motor. They should call it nuclear-electric transmission to avoid the confusion.

View attachment 32533

The Barracuda/Suffren already uses NEP so I'd assume SNLE 3G would have it as well.
Using steam to drive the propeller directly has a larger acoustic signature, that is why next next UK/US SSBN and SSNs will use turbo-electric drive. It typically takes up more space, which is why the US and UK SSBNs will be reduced to 16 and 12 tubes respectively, but the reduction in noise is huge, making it worth it. With turbo-electric drive, the nuclear reactor drives a turbine to produce electricity, which then drives an electric motor that spins the propulsor.

1711120663119.png

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You can see the increased size due to the turbo-electric drive, but the order of magnitude reduction in acoustic signature pays off.
1711121142842.png


While much of the technology of the boats is not available for security reasons, the boat is engineered with an electric drive propulsion system able to both power up the boat with additional electricity but also greatly reduce the submarine's acoustic signature. Being stealthier than any submarine ever to exist would be a critical advantage for nuclear armed submarines as their tactical advantage depends upon “not” being detected.


Turbo-electric drives use the nuclear reactor to generate electricity. This powers an electric motor which drives the propulsor. This should be quieter than driving the propeller shaft directly. While turbo-electric drives have been used aboard nuclear submarines before, this (together with the U.S. Navy’s Columbia Class) will be the first time it has been used on serial production boats. And on the Dreadnought it will be driving an improved, quieter, pumpjet propulsor.
 
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Using steam to drive the propeller directly has a larger acoustic signature, that is why next next UK/US SSBN and SSNs will use turbo-electric drive. It typically takes up more space, which is why the US and UK SSBNs will be reduced to 16 and 12 tubes respectively, but the reduction in noise is huge, making it worth it. With turbo-electric drive, the nuclear reactor drives a turbine to produce electricity, which then drives an electric motor that spins the propulsor.

Yeah so I had it right.

Steam from the reactor turns a turbine, which generates electricity to drive a motor which in turns drives the shaft.

The only thing being eliminated is the reduction gearbox. Steam is still part of the system.

The same concept is also utilized in the Suffren.
 
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The electric-drive system is expected to be quieter (i.e., stealthier) than a mechanical-drive system," a Congressional Research Service report on Columbia-Class submarines from several years ago states.
(…)
(…) expect the Dreadnought Class to take stealth to the next level. H. I. Sutton
 
The electric-drive system is expected to be quieter (i.e., stealthier) than a mechanical-drive system," a Congressional Research Service report on Columbia-Class submarines from several years ago states.

(…) expect the Dreadnought Class to take stealth to the next level. H. I. Sutton
I'm fairly sure they'll have tested it first.(y) Let's not start getting jealous now.;)
 
I'm fairly sure they'll have tested it first.(y) Let's not start getting jealous now.;)
jealous? why?

The Ministry of Defence is working on a breakthrough technology for submarine propulsion


(11.26.2023)

g**gltrad: To carry out its missions, a nuclear submarine must be as discreet as possible. However, despite the innovations developed over recent decades, such a ship is not yet completely silent, because of the cavitation noise produced by its propeller. Depending on this, it is possible to determine its acoustic signature… and therefore to identify it [this is also the work of the “golden ears” of the Navy Acoustic Interpretation and Reconnaissance Center national].


To eliminate this cavitation noise, there is only one solution: do without a propeller... Which would be possible with magnetohydrodynamics [MHD] which, to summarize succinctly, is concerned with the flow of electrically conductive fluids in the presence of a magnetic field.


“The basic principle of MHD propulsion is simple. It involves using electromagnetic forces to propel ships by reaction. These Laplace forces come from the interaction between a magnetic field, created by superconducting coils and electric currents circulating in sea water. Thus, the electrical energy, supplied by generators on board, is directly transformed into mechanical energy [work of electromagnetic forces],” explains Christophe Trophime, in a thesis on this subject.


And the researcher adds: “The advantages of such a propulsion system lie in this concept which makes it possible to eliminate all moving mechanical parts [propeller, mechanical shaft, etc.] and the disadvantages attached to them [cavitation, noise, tightness, etc.]”.


During the Cold War, work on MHD propulsion for ships was carried out in the United States and the Soviet Union. American researchers Stewart Way, Warren A. Rice and O.M. Phillips demonstrated its feasibility, with tests carried out with a scale model of a submersible [3 meters long and weighing 400 kg] in California. However, their research did not go any further, for lack of being able to manufacture coils capable of producing magnetic fields sufficient to reach scale 1. However, the Soviets continued their efforts in this direction, which also gave the writer Tom Clancy the plot of his novel “The Hunt for Red October”.


However, progress made in superconductivity has since changed the situation, with the production now possible of superconducting electromagnets capable of producing magnetic fields of several Teslas.


Thus, at the beginning of 1992, thanks to research carried out by the Merchant Marine University of Kobe [Japan] and with the assistance of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Toshiba and Kobe Steel, the Japanese company "Ship & Ocean Foundation" developed the Yamato 1, the demonstrator of an electromagnetic propulsion ship. With a displacement of 280 tonnes for a length of 30 meters, it could sail at a speed of 8 knots, thanks to an MHD accelerator.


This revived the US Navy's interest in this mode of propulsion, particularly for submarines. But, once again, the technology was not yet ripe to consider going further, with the coils needed to produce a sufficient magnetic field still being too heavy for such ships.


However, last June, DARPA, the Pentagon agency dedicated to innovation, relaunched work in this area with the PUMP [Principles of Undersea Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps] project, the properties of mixed oxides of barium, copper and of rare earth [REBCO] having opened new perspectives.


But France is not left out. Indeed, in the 1990s, and like the US Navy, the French Navy was interested in MHD propulsion, the Geophysical and Industrial Flows Laboratory [LEGI, of the National Polytechnic Institute of Grenoble] having been responsible for conducting technological monitoring in this area.


Questioned on this subject by MP [RN] Nathalie Da Conceicao Carvalho, the Ministry of the Armed Forces recently expressed its keen interest in MHD propulsion.


“The evolution of performance in the field of superconductivity over the last ten years makes it possible to envisage the manufacture of large magnets developing a significant magnetic field [up to 20 teslas]. Equipped with such magnets, naval magnetic propulsion, the theory of which has been studied since the 1960s, is entering the phase of feasibility studies with many potential advantages compared to conventional propulsion,” the ministry first recalled in its response to the parliamentarian.


Also, the Directorate General of Armaments [DGA] is very interested in this, with the launch, in 2018, of “digital” studies carried out in partnership with “specialized laboratories”, which, if not not named, could be the LEGI, the Grenoble Electrotechnical Laboratory [LEG], for the study of superconducting coils, the Center for Research in Mineral Electrochemistry and Process Engineering [CREMGP] and the Laboratory of MAGnétoDYnamique des Liquids and Applications to Metallurgy, which are at the forefront in this field.


Still, according to the Ministry of the Armed Forces, these studies have “confirmed very encouraging overall performances”, to the point that a “roadmap dedicated to magnetic propulsion for a naval application was established in 2022, specifying the financing needs” and that a “first market was launched” in 2023 with the objective of carrying out laboratory experiments.


There is talk of launching other markets in 2024, in order to assess the “feasibility of integrating a high-performance magnet into a demonstrator” and then carrying out “detailed design and development studies of reduced-scale demonstrators ".


“If the application primarily concerns the propulsion of a nuclear submarine, the investments made as part of this project will have repercussions in several civil fields such as the field of fusion or even medical imaging [MRI] », concluded the ministry./g**gltrad
 
jealous? why?

The Ministry of Defence is working on a breakthrough technology for submarine propulsion


(11.26.2023)

g**gltrad: To carry out its missions, a nuclear submarine must be as discreet as possible. However, despite the innovations developed over recent decades, such a ship is not yet completely silent, because of the cavitation noise produced by its propeller. Depending on this, it is possible to determine its acoustic signature… and therefore to identify it [this is also the work of the “golden ears” of the Navy Acoustic Interpretation and Reconnaissance Center national].


To eliminate this cavitation noise, there is only one solution: do without a propeller... Which would be possible with magnetohydrodynamics [MHD] which, to summarize succinctly, is concerned with the flow of electrically conductive fluids in the presence of a magnetic field.


“The basic principle of MHD propulsion is simple. It involves using electromagnetic forces to propel ships by reaction. These Laplace forces come from the interaction between a magnetic field, created by superconducting coils and electric currents circulating in sea water. Thus, the electrical energy, supplied by generators on board, is directly transformed into mechanical energy [work of electromagnetic forces],” explains Christophe Trophime, in a thesis on this subject.


And the researcher adds: “The advantages of such a propulsion system lie in this concept which makes it possible to eliminate all moving mechanical parts [propeller, mechanical shaft, etc.] and the disadvantages attached to them [cavitation, noise, tightness, etc.]”.


During the Cold War, work on MHD propulsion for ships was carried out in the United States and the Soviet Union. American researchers Stewart Way, Warren A. Rice and O.M. Phillips demonstrated its feasibility, with tests carried out with a scale model of a submersible [3 meters long and weighing 400 kg] in California. However, their research did not go any further, for lack of being able to manufacture coils capable of producing magnetic fields sufficient to reach scale 1. However, the Soviets continued their efforts in this direction, which also gave the writer Tom Clancy the plot of his novel “The Hunt for Red October”.


However, progress made in superconductivity has since changed the situation, with the production now possible of superconducting electromagnets capable of producing magnetic fields of several Teslas.


Thus, at the beginning of 1992, thanks to research carried out by the Merchant Marine University of Kobe [Japan] and with the assistance of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Toshiba and Kobe Steel, the Japanese company "Ship & Ocean Foundation" developed the Yamato 1, the demonstrator of an electromagnetic propulsion ship. With a displacement of 280 tonnes for a length of 30 meters, it could sail at a speed of 8 knots, thanks to an MHD accelerator.


This revived the US Navy's interest in this mode of propulsion, particularly for submarines. But, once again, the technology was not yet ripe to consider going further, with the coils needed to produce a sufficient magnetic field still being too heavy for such ships.


However, last June, DARPA, the Pentagon agency dedicated to innovation, relaunched work in this area with the PUMP [Principles of Undersea Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps] project, the properties of mixed oxides of barium, copper and of rare earth [REBCO] having opened new perspectives.


But France is not left out. Indeed, in the 1990s, and like the US Navy, the French Navy was interested in MHD propulsion, the Geophysical and Industrial Flows Laboratory [LEGI, of the National Polytechnic Institute of Grenoble] having been responsible for conducting technological monitoring in this area.


Questioned on this subject by MP [RN] Nathalie Da Conceicao Carvalho, the Ministry of the Armed Forces recently expressed its keen interest in MHD propulsion.


“The evolution of performance in the field of superconductivity over the last ten years makes it possible to envisage the manufacture of large magnets developing a significant magnetic field [up to 20 teslas]. Equipped with such magnets, naval magnetic propulsion, the theory of which has been studied since the 1960s, is entering the phase of feasibility studies with many potential advantages compared to conventional propulsion,” the ministry first recalled in its response to the parliamentarian.


Also, the Directorate General of Armaments [DGA] is very interested in this, with the launch, in 2018, of “digital” studies carried out in partnership with “specialized laboratories”, which, if not not named, could be the LEGI, the Grenoble Electrotechnical Laboratory [LEG], for the study of superconducting coils, the Center for Research in Mineral Electrochemistry and Process Engineering [CREMGP] and the Laboratory of MAGnétoDYnamique des Liquids and Applications to Metallurgy, which are at the forefront in this field.


Still, according to the Ministry of the Armed Forces, these studies have “confirmed very encouraging overall performances”, to the point that a “roadmap dedicated to magnetic propulsion for a naval application was established in 2022, specifying the financing needs” and that a “first market was launched” in 2023 with the objective of carrying out laboratory experiments.


There is talk of launching other markets in 2024, in order to assess the “feasibility of integrating a high-performance magnet into a demonstrator” and then carrying out “detailed design and development studies of reduced-scale demonstrators ".


“If the application primarily concerns the propulsion of a nuclear submarine, the investments made as part of this project will have repercussions in several civil fields such as the field of fusion or even medical imaging [MRI] », concluded the ministry./g**gltrad
Everyone is working on such things but the fact is France's next gen sub is noisier.
 
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have you heard it?
You have a strange idea of what a fact is
Nuclear-steam is noisier than nuclear-electric that's why people are switching. You do yourself no favours and lessen your genuine achievements by refusing to accept basic tenets of fact in this way.
 
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Yeah so I had it right.

Steam from the reactor turns a turbine, which generates electricity to drive a motor which in turns drives the shaft.

The only thing being eliminated is the reduction gearbox. Steam is still part of the system.

The same concept is also utilized in the Suffren.
The Suffren only uses electric motors for driving the propulsion at low speeds and it's not the first to do that, the new UK/US SSBNs use electrically driven propulsion at all speeds.

MHDs, as referenced by Amarante are again quieter but at the moment MHDs offer crap thermal to electric conversion efficiency. Theoretically they can actually give better conversion efficiency but in practice they're about half the efficiency of practical steam turbines even in lab conditions.
 
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jealous? why?

The Ministry of Defence is working on a breakthrough technology for submarine propulsion


(11.26.2023)

g**gltrad: To carry out its missions, a nuclear submarine must be as discreet as possible. However, despite the innovations developed over recent decades, such a ship is not yet completely silent, because of the cavitation noise produced by its propeller. Depending on this, it is possible to determine its acoustic signature… and therefore to identify it [this is also the work of the “golden ears” of the Navy Acoustic Interpretation and Reconnaissance Center national].


To eliminate this cavitation noise, there is only one solution: do without a propeller... Which would be possible with magnetohydrodynamics [MHD] which, to summarize succinctly, is concerned with the flow of electrically conductive fluids in the presence of a magnetic field.


“The basic principle of MHD propulsion is simple. It involves using electromagnetic forces to propel ships by reaction. These Laplace forces come from the interaction between a magnetic field, created by superconducting coils and electric currents circulating in sea water. Thus, the electrical energy, supplied by generators on board, is directly transformed into mechanical energy [work of electromagnetic forces],” explains Christophe Trophime, in a thesis on this subject.


And the researcher adds: “The advantages of such a propulsion system lie in this concept which makes it possible to eliminate all moving mechanical parts [propeller, mechanical shaft, etc.] and the disadvantages attached to them [cavitation, noise, tightness, etc.]”.


During the Cold War, work on MHD propulsion for ships was carried out in the United States and the Soviet Union. American researchers Stewart Way, Warren A. Rice and O.M. Phillips demonstrated its feasibility, with tests carried out with a scale model of a submersible [3 meters long and weighing 400 kg] in California. However, their research did not go any further, for lack of being able to manufacture coils capable of producing magnetic fields sufficient to reach scale 1. However, the Soviets continued their efforts in this direction, which also gave the writer Tom Clancy the plot of his novel “The Hunt for Red October”.


However, progress made in superconductivity has since changed the situation, with the production now possible of superconducting electromagnets capable of producing magnetic fields of several Teslas.


Thus, at the beginning of 1992, thanks to research carried out by the Merchant Marine University of Kobe [Japan] and with the assistance of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Toshiba and Kobe Steel, the Japanese company "Ship & Ocean Foundation" developed the Yamato 1, the demonstrator of an electromagnetic propulsion ship. With a displacement of 280 tonnes for a length of 30 meters, it could sail at a speed of 8 knots, thanks to an MHD accelerator.


This revived the US Navy's interest in this mode of propulsion, particularly for submarines. But, once again, the technology was not yet ripe to consider going further, with the coils needed to produce a sufficient magnetic field still being too heavy for such ships.


However, last June, DARPA, the Pentagon agency dedicated to innovation, relaunched work in this area with the PUMP [Principles of Undersea Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps] project, the properties of mixed oxides of barium, copper and of rare earth [REBCO] having opened new perspectives.


But France is not left out. Indeed, in the 1990s, and like the US Navy, the French Navy was interested in MHD propulsion, the Geophysical and Industrial Flows Laboratory [LEGI, of the National Polytechnic Institute of Grenoble] having been responsible for conducting technological monitoring in this area.


Questioned on this subject by MP [RN] Nathalie Da Conceicao Carvalho, the Ministry of the Armed Forces recently expressed its keen interest in MHD propulsion.


“The evolution of performance in the field of superconductivity over the last ten years makes it possible to envisage the manufacture of large magnets developing a significant magnetic field [up to 20 teslas]. Equipped with such magnets, naval magnetic propulsion, the theory of which has been studied since the 1960s, is entering the phase of feasibility studies with many potential advantages compared to conventional propulsion,” the ministry first recalled in its response to the parliamentarian.


Also, the Directorate General of Armaments [DGA] is very interested in this, with the launch, in 2018, of “digital” studies carried out in partnership with “specialized laboratories”, which, if not not named, could be the LEGI, the Grenoble Electrotechnical Laboratory [LEG], for the study of superconducting coils, the Center for Research in Mineral Electrochemistry and Process Engineering [CREMGP] and the Laboratory of MAGnétoDYnamique des Liquids and Applications to Metallurgy, which are at the forefront in this field.


Still, according to the Ministry of the Armed Forces, these studies have “confirmed very encouraging overall performances”, to the point that a “roadmap dedicated to magnetic propulsion for a naval application was established in 2022, specifying the financing needs” and that a “first market was launched” in 2023 with the objective of carrying out laboratory experiments.


There is talk of launching other markets in 2024, in order to assess the “feasibility of integrating a high-performance magnet into a demonstrator” and then carrying out “detailed design and development studies of reduced-scale demonstrators ".


“If the application primarily concerns the propulsion of a nuclear submarine, the investments made as part of this project will have repercussions in several civil fields such as the field of fusion or even medical imaging [MRI] », concluded the ministry./g**gltrad
The report literally references earlier successes by the US.

 
Can I get a source on that?
  • It features a new hybrid steam/electric propulsion that allows high speed and improved noise reduction.
These generators supply the ship in electricity, including the two very quiet electric motors used for low and tactical speeds.

It's the improvements that allow the use at higher speeds too in the case of the US/UK SSBNs.
 
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The Suffren only uses electric motors for driving the propulsion at low speeds and it's not the first to do that, the new UK/US SSBNs use electrically driven propulsion at all speeds.

You're oversimplifying the Suffren's characteristics:
including the two very quiet electric motors used for low and tactical speeds
And it doesn't mean anything about the noise the next generation French submarines will make, because the people working on the next generation don't say what they're doing.
 
You're oversimplifying the Suffren's characteristics:
What's incorrect about my statement, the Suffren uses hybrid steam/electric propulsion, steam for high speeds, electric motors for low speeds.
And it doesn't mean anything about the noise the next generation French submarines will make, because the people working on the next generation don't say what they're doing.
The SNLE-3G is the next generation, it's steam propulsion (you can tell from the size) and it's at the same stage of development as the UK Dreadnought Class. Any MHD submarine is ~30 years away at this point IF it proves a successful.

At the moment turbo-electric with SSD (Submarine Shaftless Drive) is the stealthiest tech. on the horizon.
Isn't steam involved either way? What the NEP setup does is to use a silent electric motor to turn the shaft instead of noisy reduction gearing.
There is no shaft, it uses magnetic coupling, similar to what the more modern wind turbines do.
 
What's incorrect about my statement, the Suffren uses hybrid steam/electric propulsion, steam for high speeds, electric motors for low speeds AND tactical speed.
The SNLE-3G is the next generation, it's steam propulsion (you can tell from the size) I would like a link and it's at the same stage of development as the UK Dreadnought Class. Any MHD submarine is ~30 years away at this point IF it proves a successful. I never spoke of MHD
At the moment turbo-electric with SSD (Submarine Shaftless Drive) is the stealthiest tech. on the horizon. I have no expertise in this field and I trust the French engineers to choose the best solution.
There is no shaft, it uses magnetic coupling, similar to what the more modern wind turbines do. And?

Maybe we'll prefer to use active noise cancellation like in high-fidelity headphones. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
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Tactical speed is still slow, otherwise the propulsion would not be described as 'HYBRID steam/electric that allows high speed and improved noise reduction'. In the past electric drive has been incapable of higher speeds, that is what's changed.

As regards evidence, it's obvious from the size. The transition to turbo-electric has made subs relatively larger, hence why the next gen US sub has 16 tubes but is the same size as Ohio with 24 tubes, and the same for the UK sub with 12 tubes being as big as the 16 tube Vanguard,
 
(…) The SNLE-3G is the next generation, it's steam propulsion (you can tell from the size) (…)
At first glance the new submarine is similar in size and form to the current Le Triomphant-class. But it is an entirely new design and is actually almost 10 meters (30 ft) longer (about 150 meters in length, 15,000+ tons displacement submerged, but official figures are still classified). The crew complement (110 sailors), number of SLBM silos (16x) and torpedo tubes (4x) will remain unchanged compared to the Le Triomphant-class. (…)
 
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At first glance the new submarine is similar in size and form to the current Le Triomphant-class. But it is an entirely new design and is actually almost 10 meters (30 ft) longer (about 150 meters in length, 15,000+ tons displacement submerged, but official figures are still classified). The crew complement (110 sailors), number of SLBM silos (16x) and torpedo tubes (4x) will remain unchanged compared to the Le Triomphant-class. (…)
But it's still nuclear-steam based on size unless you have evidence to the contrary.