FCAS Program, Specification, development

Picdelamirand-oil said:
Couldn't AMCA be the demonstrator of the SCAF NGF? It could receive constructive criticism from Dassault who know how to make airframes lighter while improving their aerodynamics and strength. The final NGF would probably have a new variable cycle engine and more advanced on-board systems with new capabilities.
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Any SCAF demonstration on AMCA will have to be a parallel project.

Unofficially AMCA already has entered the engineering phase, procurement of long lead items began last year.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Midhani supplies titanium alloy for medium combat jets’ airframe | Hyderabad News - Times of India

As India works to further strengthen its armed forces by equipping them with the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Hyderabad-based defence PSU,
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com

France should have offered it as part of Rafale offsets a few years ago.
 
Optimist said:
So you think it will end up switching to the UK one. France goes it alone with Rafale v10.0
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It depends on how the transition towards next gen air superiority happens.

The Russians will likely come out with the first near-space capable fighter jet by 2025. There are rumours that the AF-NGAD will see a variant with a hybrid engine too. So it could be a mix of the Su-57 and PAK DP depending on the engine equipped. We already know AF-NGAD will come in two variants, and it appears it will have three engine options.

If FCAS and Tempest are like Su-57, then both France and Britain may have to come out with ramjet/scramjet equipped versions too. So it's possible that the French can combine FCAS with Tempest and then work on their near-space capable fighter separately.
 
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Europe working together, we can only hope.

Russia stronk. They ran out of letters and numbers they can add to the SU-27 and are moving on. It great to see what they can do with the GDP of Australia, with a lot more people to feed and clothe.


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Optimist said:
Europe working together, we can only hope.

Russia stronk. They ran out of letters and numbers they can add to the SU-27 and are moving on. It great to see what they can do with the GDP of Australia, with a lot more people to feed and clothe.


View attachment 22607
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The Russians don't do as much welfare, so they can throw money at other things. And a dollar buys you 4 times more stuff in Russia than in Australia. Being both militarily advanced and self-sufficient in resources is a massive blessing.

If the Europeans don't work together, they won't be able to handle Russia in just 10 more years.
 
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Avec le Rafale F5, la France a-t-elle encore besoin du SCAF ?

With the Rafale F5, does France still need the SCAF?
30 August 2023

The Rafale F5 now takes priority over the SCAF! This is the statement made by Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, during his appearance on the French business news channel BFM Business.

For the CEO, resources are currently focused on the objective of bringing out the new Rafale standard by 2030, followed by the UAVs that will accompany it, while the SCAF programme is aiming for a more distant timeframe.

In a more diplomatic vein than usual, Eric Trappier also reiterated his concerns about the future of the fighter aircraft programme that brings together France, Germany and Spain.

A still unclear future for the SCAF programme

While the tasks and industrial sharing are relatively well defined for phase 1B of the study preceding the design of the demonstrator until 2027, the future remains unclear.

It took the joint intervention of the French, Spanish and German defence ministers to get the SCAF programme out of the rut it had been in for a year.

Clearly, Dassault Aviation is afraid of a new tug of war with Airbus DS over the management of the NGF (Next Generation Fighter), the combat fighter and first pillar of the programme, which was already at the root of the strong tensions that brought the programme to the brink of implosion just two years ago, until the three countries' supervisory ministers took it in hand.

The fact is, Eric Trappier's concerns are well-founded. Not only is nothing set in stone beyond phase 1B, but another programme could shatter the fragile balance around the SCAF programme.

The links between the SCAF and MGCS programmes

At the same time, the other Franco-German defence programme, MGCS, is currently the subject of a major tug-of-war between Paris and Berlin, again over industrial sharing.

The MGCS and SCAF programmes are politically linked, and the failure of one could well lead to the failure of the other.

Above all, at the next meeting between ministers Sébastien Lecornu and Boris Pistorius at the end of September, France intends to impose Italy's entry into the programme, so as to force a salutary rebalancing of the programme. However, this does not seem to be to the liking of Berlin, and in particular its two industrialists.

For Berlin, or rather for the Bundestag, the two programmes, MGCS and SCAF, are linked, particularly as regards the sharing of responsibilities and industrial management: Germany manages MGCS, France manages SCAF, even if this is disputed by Airbus DS.

In short, if MGCS falls in the next few weeks or months, there is a good chance that the SCAF programme will do the same. Eric Trappier and Sébastien Lecornu are perfectly aware of this.

The ambitions of the Rafale F5 revised upwards by the new LPM

This is precisely where the Rafale F5 standard comes in. Although not officially presented as an alternative to the SCAF, the new Military Planning Law has given this new standard so many attributes that it could unquestionably claim to be one.

So much so, in fact, that we can now ask ourselves whether, in the current context, France still needs the SCAF, given the imminent arrival of the Rafale F5?
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
Avec le Rafale F5, la France a-t-elle encore besoin du SCAF ?

With the Rafale F5, does France still need the SCAF?
30 August 2023

The Rafale F5 now takes priority over the SCAF! This is the statement made by Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, during his appearance on the French business news channel BFM Business.

For the CEO, resources are currently focused on the objective of bringing out the new Rafale standard by 2030, followed by the UAVs that will accompany it, while the SCAF programme is aiming for a more distant timeframe.

In a more diplomatic vein than usual, Eric Trappier also reiterated his concerns about the future of the fighter aircraft programme that brings together France, Germany and Spain.

A still unclear future for the SCAF programme

While the tasks and industrial sharing are relatively well defined for phase 1B of the study preceding the design of the demonstrator until 2027, the future remains unclear.

It took the joint intervention of the French, Spanish and German defence ministers to get the SCAF programme out of the rut it had been in for a year.

Clearly, Dassault Aviation is afraid of a new tug of war with Airbus DS over the management of the NGF (Next Generation Fighter), the combat fighter and first pillar of the programme, which was already at the root of the strong tensions that brought the programme to the brink of implosion just two years ago, until the three countries' supervisory ministers took it in hand.

The fact is, Eric Trappier's concerns are well-founded. Not only is nothing set in stone beyond phase 1B, but another programme could shatter the fragile balance around the SCAF programme.

The links between the SCAF and MGCS programmes

At the same time, the other Franco-German defence programme, MGCS, is currently the subject of a major tug-of-war between Paris and Berlin, again over industrial sharing.

The MGCS and SCAF programmes are politically linked, and the failure of one could well lead to the failure of the other.

Above all, at the next meeting between ministers Sébastien Lecornu and Boris Pistorius at the end of September, France intends to impose Italy's entry into the programme, so as to force a salutary rebalancing of the programme. However, this does not seem to be to the liking of Berlin, and in particular its two industrialists.

For Berlin, or rather for the Bundestag, the two programmes, MGCS and SCAF, are linked, particularly as regards the sharing of responsibilities and industrial management: Germany manages MGCS, France manages SCAF, even if this is disputed by Airbus DS.

In short, if MGCS falls in the next few weeks or months, there is a good chance that the SCAF programme will do the same. Eric Trappier and Sébastien Lecornu are perfectly aware of this.

The ambitions of the Rafale F5 revised upwards by the new LPM

This is precisely where the Rafale F5 standard comes in. Although not officially presented as an alternative to the SCAF, the new Military Planning Law has given this new standard so many attributes that it could unquestionably claim to be one.

So much so, in fact, that we can now ask ourselves whether, in the current context, France still needs the SCAF, given the imminent arrival of the Rafale F5?
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Buy 4-5 squadrons of AMCA Mk3 alongside India buying 6-9 squadrons of Rafale F5 and you won't need SCAF until 2070+. You can equip your AMCA squadrons with F6 tech with full production transfer of the airframe and engine. It will act as a stopgap for the AAE and also save Dassault the headache of useless collaborations. In the meantime, France and India can collaborate on a more dedicated naval jet.
 
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randomradio said:
Buy 4-5 squadrons of AMCA Mk3 alongside India buying 6-9 squadrons of Rafale F5 and you won't need SCAF until 2070+. You can equip your AMCA squadrons with F6 tech with full production transfer of the airframe and engine. It will act as a stopgap for the AAE and also save Dassault the headache of useless collaborations. In the meantime, France and India can collaborate on a more dedicated naval jet.
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I've proposed to our President that the SCAF demonstrator should converge with the AMCA, in other words that we should develop it jointly with India, using the current state of AMCA development to produce an aircraft that would be the AMCA for India and the NGF demonstrator for France. We already have an agreement to develop the engine together. If we equip it with technology derived from the F6, we'll have something respectable and affordable.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
I've proposed to our President that the SCAF demonstrator should converge with the AMCA, in other words that we should develop it jointly with India, using the current state of AMCA development to produce an aircraft that would be the AMCA for India and the NGF demonstrator for France. We already have an agreement to develop the engine together. If we equip it with technology derived from the F6, we'll have something respectable and affordable.
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AMCA is set in stone. India needs a stealth heavy-weight Air Dominance Fighter to replace the MKI. I think both India and France should collaborate on such project together. If SCAF is medium weight like AMCA/Rafale then it is out.
 
Rajput Lion said:
AMCA is set in stone. India needs a stealth heavy-weight Air Dominance Fighter to replace the MKI. I think both India and France should collaborate on such project together. If SCAF is medium weight like AMCA/Rafale then it is out.
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AMCA and NGF have engines with the same thrust, so they should have roughly the same mass.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
I've proposed to our President that the SCAF demonstrator should converge with the AMCA, in other words that we should develop it jointly with India, using the current state of AMCA development to produce an aircraft that would be the AMCA for India and the NGF demonstrator for France. We already have an agreement to develop the engine together. If we equip it with technology derived from the F6, we'll have something respectable and affordable.
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But what is the end goal of the AMCA demonstrator for you? If it's just TD and won't translate into a full-fledged program, then it's not good for the Indian industry.

My thinking is AMCA will be its own separate project for 140 jets, then France and India can work together on a modernisation called AMCA-F/I from 2030, and both could buy the same airframe and engine with separate avionics builds; AMCA-France and AMCA-India. So AMCA-F would replace the Rafale in France and push SCAF to 2070+ as an AMCA successor, while AMCA-I replaces many of the MKIs.
 
randomradio said:
But what is the end goal of the AMCA demonstrator for you? If it's just TD and won't translate into a full-fledged program, then it's not good for the Indian industry.

My thinking is AMCA will be its own separate project for 140 jets, then France and India can work together on a modernisation called AMCA-F/I from 2030, and both could buy the same airframe and engine with separate avionics builds; AMCA-France and AMCA-India. So AMCA-F would replace the Rafale in France and push SCAF to 2070+ as an AMCA successor, while AMCA-I replaces many of the MKIs.
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Yes Something like that, but to be defined by a negociation between India and France.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
AMCA and NGF have engines with the same thrust, so they should have roughly the same mass.
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...and roughly the same fuel load too? AMCA has 6.5 ton internal fuel while MKI has 10 ton. We need our MKI replacement to have greater endurance on internal fuel (which means 10 to 12 ton internal fuel load). So, SCAF may not replace MKI for us if its endurance is going to be like AMCA, IMO.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
AMCA and NGF have engines with the same thrust, so they should have roughly the same mass.
Click to expand...

IIRC, AMCA and NGF demonstrator seem to be the same, but the main NGF will be much bigger at 30 tonnes.

Program Dossier: Future Combat Air System | Aviation Week Network

The Future Combat Air System (FCAS) is a prospective system of systems planned to enter service in 2040 to meet the air dominance needs of France, Germany and Spain.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
In October 2019, Admiral Prazuck told a French Senate hearing he expects the NGF to be a 30 metric ton (66,168 lbs.) class aircraft and a preliminary model at Le Bourget suggests an airframe 18 meters long (59 ft.).
 
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Rajput Lion said:
AMCA is set in stone. India needs a stealth heavy-weight Air Dominance Fighter to replace the MKI. I think both India and France should collaborate on such project together. If SCAF is medium weight like AMCA/Rafale then it is out.
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SCAF is actually a system of systems of which NGF is the fighter jet component. Last year itself i told here that NGF of france is in same category of AMCA and with similar objectives. AMCA still is work in progress and France can collaborate with India on AMCA mk 2 and cancel NGF. AMCA mk 2 can very well serve as NGF component in french SCAF program.
Now coming to heavy weight fighter, Su 30mki has payload capacity of 8 tonnes and AMCA has that of 7 tonnes so AMCA can easily replace Su 30mki.
Now, the best option for france is partner with india in AMCA mk 2 and adopt it as NGF and complete its SCAF program alone. This will be timely & cost effective for them. Simultaneously, India and France can collaborate on initial R&D for Espadon which is lacking funding for far futuristic program.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
Yes Something like that, but to be defined by a negociation between India and France.
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As long as AAE finds itself operating the AMCA, then I think Dassault will be able to retain its independence and also get 3 programs in the process, for less than the cost of 1 with Germany.

I guess the DGA will be able to make a decision only after AMCA prototypes start flying (2028 to 2030), so that gives enough time for the IAF to finish MRFA and for the DGA to kill SCAF. Also, I don't think Macron will allow it, so we have to wait until 2027-28 anyway.

The only difficult problem I see is this will impact Dassault's and France's reputation, if you end up having to use an Indian design to replace the AMCA. Regular folks will not understand why this decision was made.
 
Rajput Lion said:
...and roughly the same fuel load too? AMCA has 6.5 ton internal fuel while MKI has 10 ton. We need our MKI replacement to have greater endurance on internal fuel (which means 10 to 12 ton internal fuel load). So, SCAF may not replace MKI for us if its endurance is going to be like AMCA, IMO.
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I don't see an IAF-AAE collaboration in the future. Rafale, definitely. AMCA, maybe. But whatever comes after AMCA will see the IAF treating it similar to how the Americans and Chinese deal with their primary jet, ie, not for export. We have a large enough single market for it, and the IAF will want to retain full control and secrecy over it.

Otoh, a collaboration between France and India for a naval fighter is far more feasible. IN is still 30 years away from having a similar numbers requirement as the IAF, so their market is not sufficient today. And the IN doesn't need an MKI-sized jet.
 
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