Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

Rafale alone can't achieve active stealth, it may require decoys and diversions. Pakistan is not a problem, think about China.
Rafale can play 'hide n seek' better in mountains than over plains.
Surprize strike is a multi agency and tri services operation. Agencies will give input where is the weakest detection capability and tri services will exploit it either by drone or any other equipment in inventry.
Yeah, true. But Rafale is still the best manned jet we've to accomplish such a risky mission. If F-35s were an option, then they would have done that job. But with stupid actions of Trump and Uncle Sam, the fine thread of trust which existed between India & USA is now gone forever. Now we have to deal with Pak + US + China Nexus. None of these want India to become an independent super-power. So even if we're going to soon procure Su-57s, Rafale would still remain our number one Deep Penetration platform unless Russians offer S-70Bs to us. Let's see........
 
They were bought thinking better electronics and comms plus the ToT in engine tech. It was more China centric approach. But it seems IAF and DRDO have to make Rafales more lethal in offence. Good thing is they are highly up-gradable and have rpbust fail safe systems onboard, they have been tested in recent skirmish.
I am paying 200 million for a jet so that I will be relaxing, hoping it will do all the work as an omnirole fighter, as mentioned in the brochure. I am not expecting DRDO to put their sweat into this program to make this machine up-to-date. The IAF and Rafale should discuss how they are going to resolve the issue to keep it up-to-date in real-world scenarios. Else, I don't see how a bulk purchase is going to solve anything except wasting taxpayers money. The cost should come down, and the integration of 3rd-party weapons and electronic protection systems should be easier as it's not a geometrical stealth fighter plane.
 
They gutted the F4 update and shifted the stuff to F5, You are realistically waiting till mid 2030, It is being done in conjunction with the FCAS, it may well be later, How much can be retrofitted to F3 is another story
 
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They gutted the F4 update and shifted the stuff to F5, You are realistically waiting till mid 2030, It is being done in conjunction with the FCAS, it may well be later, How much can be retrofitted to F3 is another story

India will have to upgrade our 36 Rafales with our own
Tejas GAN AESA and Our own ASPJ , which we are developing for SU 30
 
You don't have ToT to do that, You buy every part, including nut, bolt and screws off of Dassault, You can't even bend a sheet of metal to repair, You aren't putting your own radar in there, You might be able to pay them a lot of money to do it for you, if it works with their systems
 
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India will have to upgrade our 36 Rafales with our own
Tejas GAN AESA and Our own ASPJ , which we are developing for SU 30

We actually wanted to put our own AESA on the Navy's Rafale-Ms, but the French side did not agree to this.

Unless something changes drastically, it's unlikely they'll agree to this in the MRFA either.
 
We actually wanted to put our own AESA on the Navy's Rafale-Ms, but the French side did not agree to this.

Unless something changes drastically, it's unlikely they'll agree to this in the MRFA either.

So we have a Situation building up where
1 We will have our own GAN AESA

2 Our own GAN jammers

3 Long range Missiles like Astra MK 3

4 Long range Air to Surface Munitions like LRGB and Rudram series

5 CATS warriors

So what new capability will A Rafale F 5 bring , 10 years from now
 
So we have a Situation building up where
1 We will have our own GAN AESA

2 Our own GAN jammers

3 Long range Missiles like Astra MK 3

4 Long range Air to Surface Munitions like LRGB and Rudram series

5 CATS warriors

So what new capability will A Rafale F 5 bring , 10 years from now

Well, you're starting to see why I had my frustrations with the MRFA competition for a long time now.
 
Many are moving towards the process of calling for a MKI Rafale. Do not know if it possible though. Should such an aircraft exist? Absolutely. India has a hot hostile border and a cold hostile border. The borders are too long and the potential of conflicts too high to ignore the platform. Since the Navy has already placed an order, it makes sense for greater scrutiny as IAF/IN cannot afford to be lax in terms of capability. Our French friends should make an exception and allow DA to make an MKI version for the IAF. India is not a NATO country and does not have immediate backup available in its backyard.
 
Like all legends, there are elements that can make it real: PL-15s found all over the place, Pakistani fighters in the air by the dozen but with very few results, a rafale that brings its pilot back after taking a beating and who dies in the end. I'm sorry, but the scenario's got guts, and we're in India!
 
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We actually wanted to put our own AESA on the Navy's Rafale-Ms, but the French side did not agree to this.

Unless something changes drastically, it's unlikely they'll agree to this in the MRFA either.

For the F4 and below it makes sense, but for F5 all our current radars are downgrades in comparison.

Integration into Rafale is expensive though, and will require handing over secrets to Thales.
 
If the power is no longer enough to do the job, yea it matters. The power allocated for the internal SPJ was done keeping in mind threats like R-77, that won't work well against new-generation AESA seekers.

If you understoon the radar equation, you wouldn't have this opinion.

No, this is what is going on EK:

View attachment 44654

^^ That's the same HBJ kit that Gripen-E carries on wingtips, but Typhoon can't go for aerodynamic retesting now so it'll be carrying them as pods using the hardpoint rail that's also shown above.

"Arexis was originally selected by Berlin for the electronic attack requirement in 2023, and it is the “default configuration” for Swedish Air Force Gripen E/F jets, added Corp."

No. Lol. That's part of the Praetorian Evo. It's not an escort jammer.


The 'default configuration' of Gripen-E is of course just the high-band (wingtips) & mid-band (tailfin) solution which is carried integrally. The low band is an add-on podded configuration which is optional, not default. For Typhoon operators, a low-band solution would probably only exist on the A400M standoff platform they're working on.

So yeah, there is a huge gap left here as I said. The EK is getting a huge ECM upgrade in the high-band (maybe also midband) frequencies thanks to a solution with standalone power supply. Whereas Rafale remains stuck with the internally-powered SPECTRA which is only equivalent to the vanilla Praetorian - which the Germans have already deemned insufficient for the SEAD role...and which our experience now shows is probably insufficient in several other respects as well.

HBJs on the wingtips as standard fit. LBJ/MBJ on a pod, the photos I've already posted. The big pod is part of the Typhoon EK, it will carry 2 of those.

The only official line is that there were losses, and the reason for the losses were deficient tactics - which were subsequently rectified before the May 10 operations. Does that sound like a crash to you?

My guess, the 'rectification' basically boiled down to not letting the Rafales (or any other jet) fly out of the protective bubble of the 8222-carrying MKIs. This is also likely how some informed people are saying that MKIs 'rescued' the Rafales.

Nobody ever even suggested friendly fire...it's kinda telling that you'd rather sling sh!t on the IAF than even consider potential deficiencies in the Rafale.

Ah, so you are assuming it's enemy fire instead of other reasons.

Anyway:


It would be lost on you given you seem to think one can drink 2 litres of water out of a 1 litre bottle if only you open your mouth wider.

You don't even know what bottle and water are in this field.

Of course, all the talk Active Cancellation & low-altitude penetration to bypass long wavelengths goes out the window as soon as it turns out that hey, you need to address the IADS after all...which is what I've been saying to you in multiple conversations over this subject.

Basically, there's no difference in philosophy here as you like to believe. The French are doing the same thing that the Americans (or anyone else) are doing, just 20 years later. That's what you need to realize.

So, let me get this straight. American F-22/F-35 needs Growler and Compass Call. German F-35 needs Typhoon EK and an A-400M based jammer. Israeli F-35 needs Scorpius SJ. God forbid, the Rafale needs a support jammer, apparently it's not good enough now.

Yes, you need to address IADS, but that's how EVERYBODY is doing it. Rafale, F-35, everybody. Even AMCA will need a support jammer.

So the Rafale/F-35 use their stealth to survive, and EW to add to the survivability. The end result is both can operate inside IADS, ie, providing penetration. That's why the F-35 is useless to us when we have Rafale.

Once we get Rafale F5 via MRFA, it will more than meet our needs for stealth removing the need for importing any other stealth jet. That's why my arguments have been focused on getting our hands on 6th gen jets as stopgap, if necessary (in case AMCA fails), instead of F-35 and Su-57. And it's a decision we need delivered only after 2035, when multiple new 6th gen solutions become available. If AMCA succeeds, then we can push our stopgap decision to beyond 2040, closer to 2045-50. Simply put, there's no need for F-35s at all. So, no, this entire topic goes against your original argument.

NGAD or bust, 2035+. Or NGAD UCAV or bust, 2045+. Or whatever jet falls within its class at the time. Although the IAF will probably stick with their AMCA and AMCA NG plan.
 
It's the ability to generate electricity power and the network to run it, the current rafale doesn't have it. You can't power a house off of a 1.5v battery

We saw Spectra, active cancelation and all the other stuff it claims - FAIL.
We will see what Arexis is like on the US EW range, exercises. Or if it sees active service.

The NGJ in comparison, is not only on another page, but also in a different book, It's like calling 4th gen and 6th gen the same

There are no plans for the F-35 to have an external EW pod, it is all done internally

Neither Rafale F5 nor F-35 require high power jamming outside their radars, which will be powered separately anyway. For jamming, you need very little power. Multiple kilowatts of transmitted power at 200 or 300 km will reduce to mere watts.
 
Edit: Other than Israel and their EW pod, However I didn't see pods on the F-35 pictures, of them going to Iran, Is the current F-35 EW system doing what they want it to do? Parts of Block 4 updates are being put in the plane since 2018

View attachment 44666

F-35I's airframe is modified to carry Israeli antennas internally, separate from the original core avionics that are currently receive-only systems.

4th gen jets provide podded capabilities for now. Integation of foreign systems externally is still pending the completion of B4.