China Signs 25-Year Deal With Iran in Challenge to the U.S.

randomradio

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What happens when there's no wind, or equally, too much wind?

The way I see it, at the moment people run crap like TVs, washing machine sand kettles off EV, a few kW. Each car has several hundred kW, or even 1+MW for supercars. Call me sceptical but when the potential power draw is multiplied by several hundred that's going to cause problems. Except it's worse than that, these cars are supposed to be able to churn out that kind of power for maybe an hour, and there's talk of recharging it in 5-10 minutes!

 

Saaho

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What happens when there's no wind, or equally, too much wind?
Most of the places where they construct wind power in USA have perennial wind due to its geography. It fluctuates which is why capacity planning and energy storage is such an important thing.
 

Saaho

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The way I see it, at the moment people run crap like TVs, washing machine sand kettles off EV, a few kW. Each car has several hundred kW, or even 1+MW for supercars. Call me sceptical but when the potential power draw is multiplied by several hundred that's going to cause problems. Except it's worse than that, these cars are supposed to be able to churn out that kind of power for maybe an hour, and there's talk of recharging it in 5-10 minutes!
The common cars owned by a lot of people are likes of hybrid like chevy volt. It has a 18.2 kWH battery. It has a range of 53 miles on pure electric charge which I assume will give 50 KM on charge in non favourable real world conditions (One year on, my real-world experience with a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle | The Guardian). Its charger is a 120 V 15 Amp charger and can charge the vehicle in about 10-12 hours. Thats a lot less power than my electric cooking range. For a city car it will work more than adequate. Need to go from burb to your work place and back? It can do more than fine. That use case is for a hell lot of folks for a hell lot of time. Or take Nissan leaf (Nissan Leaf - Wikipedia). It has a 3.6 kW charger.
 
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BMD

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Fascinating but it may not be the total consumption that's the problem. However I will nitpick. 10-20kWh per 100km. You wouldn't get 10kWh per 100km even if you drove at a constant 100kph on flat and level ground everywhere, you can work this out from the fact it takes about 70hp or 52kW to achieve 100mph. Uphill, accelerating, etc. and I think it will be several times that, especially given that EVs aren't exactly lightweight. You also have round trip efficiency to consider for charging and discharging, so the lower limit of 10kWh/100km is nothing short of a joke. The average mileage estimate also looks low. 20,000km seem better.

This:

1617394050797.png


is also a lot of nice shit that simply isn't there right now and would take decades to institute for 100% EV.
Most of the places where they construct wind power in USA have perennial wind due to its geography. It fluctuates which is why capacity planning and energy storage is such an important thing.
In the US it's not a problem, but what about in smaller countries with less space, like the UK?

The common cars owned by a lot of people are likes of hybrid like chevy volt. It has a 18.2 kWH battery. It has a range of 53 miles on pure electric charge which I assume will give 50 KM on charge in non favourable real world conditions (One year on, my real-world experience with a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle | The Guardian). Its charger is a 120 V 15 Amp charger and can charge the vehicle in about 10-12 hours. Thats a lot less power than my electric cooking range. For a city car it will work more than adequate. Need to go from burb to your work place and back? It can do more than fine. That use case is for a hell lot of folks for a hell lot of time. Or take Nissan leaf (Nissan Leaf - Wikipedia). It has a 3.6 kW charger.
Even hybrid sales are supposed to be banned in the EU from 2030 onwards, no ICE at all.
 

Saaho

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In the US it's not a problem, but what about in smaller countries with less space, like the UK?
In UK / EU, they need to invest in Nuclear power. France is already on top of it.

Even hybrid sales are supposed to be banned in the EU from 2030 onwards, no ICE at all.
Yes, for Chevvy Volt, majority of people who used it as a city car only kept the hybrid part just to calm the range anxiety. Chevvy Bolt EV which replaces this model can actually provide more range, but has a larger battery. Still for the same day to day drive, charging at home is not more power intensive than say running heating during winters (mine adds 3-5 KW during coldest parts of winter easily). With heat pumps replacing baseboard heating all over the place, many countries (like Canada) will have lesser load on the grid and that headroom can accomodate these cars.
 
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randomradio

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Fascinating but it may not be the total consumption that's the problem. However I will nitpick. 10-20kWh per 100km. You wouldn't get 10kWh per 100km even if you drove at a constant 100kph on flat and level ground everywhere, you can work this out from the fact it takes about 70hp or 52kW to achieve 100mph. Uphill, accelerating, etc. and I think it will be several times that, especially given that EVs aren't exactly lightweight. You also have round trip efficiency to consider for charging and discharging, so the lower limit of 10kWh/100km is nothing short of a joke. The average mileage estimate also looks low. 20,000km seem better.

It will improve in time.

This:

View attachment 19672

is also a lot of nice shit that simply isn't there right now and would take decades to institute for 100% EV.

Already exists and in use. How else do you think Tesla Model S runs on 20KW? Naturally richer neighbourhoods will get the upgrade first as they buy high power cars like Tesla Model S whereas more middle class neighbourhoods will use regular power sockets that charge overnight.

These upgrades are beneficial to power companies. Which idiot businessman doesn't want his business to grow? You do not need decades.

In the US it's not a problem, but what about in smaller countries with less space, like the UK?

EVs do not drain the grid. All you need is an additional 5-10% capacity with 100% electrification.

In the US, according to the DOE, current infrastructure can take care of 75% of all automobiles if they are electrified. Meaning, the US needs additional capacity only for the remaining 25%. Only last mile connectivity needs upgrades.

There's enough space in the UK to add another 5-10% of renewables to the grid.
 

BMD

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It will improve in time.



Already exists and in use. How else do you think Tesla Model S runs on 20KW? Naturally richer neighbourhoods will get the upgrade first as they buy high power cars like Tesla Model S whereas more middle class neighbourhoods will use regular power sockets that charge overnight.

These upgrades are beneficial to power companies. Which idiot businessman doesn't want his business to grow? You do not need decades.



EVs do not drain the grid. All you need is an additional 5-10% capacity with 100% electrification.

In the US, according to the DOE, current infrastructure can take care of 75% of all automobiles if they are electrified. Meaning, the US needs additional capacity only for the remaining 25%. Only last mile connectivity needs upgrades.

There's enough space in the UK to add another 5-10% of renewables to the grid.
Unlikely to really, it takes a certain amount of power just to achieve a given speed. Cars already have very low Cds and EVs are heavy so rolling resistance is high. Crash safety requirements and tech. also keep making cars heavier.


In very small amount and largely trial capacity. Look at test figures from magazines for kWh/100km not brochures. 20.3kWh/100km (AMuS test) for a Model 3 is about right yes. So it's over the top end of their estimate.

All you need is a bunch of solutions that your reference study suggests to be implemented nationwide, which would take forever and the scheduling, so as not to disrupt the economy would be a nightmare. This is a 30 year project minimum, probably more like 50.


If you want to ruin the remaining countryside. Better to wait for fusion power, distributed gen brings its own problems to the grid.
 

BMD

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In UK / EU, they need to invest in Nuclear power. France is already on top of it.


Yes, for Chevvy Volt, majority of people who used it as a city car only kept the hybrid part just to calm the range anxiety. Chevvy Bolt EV which replaces this model can actually provide more range, but has a larger battery. Still for the same day to day drive, charging at home is not more power intensive than say running heating during winters (mine adds 3-5 KW during coldest parts of winter easily). With heat pumps replacing baseboard heating all over the place, many countries (like Canada) will have lesser load on the grid and that headroom can accomodate these cars.
I agree but unfortunately too many people watched the Chernobyl mini-series and now think that a reactor can cause a "2-4MT" nuclear blast. We are replacing existing nuclear power stations but adding more is too politically hot. Hopefully fusion power will change that.

Personally I think EVs are dangerous because nobody can hear them coming.
 

randomradio

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Unlikely to really, it takes a certain amount of power just to achieve a given speed. Cars already have very low Cds and EVs are heavy so rolling resistance is high. Crash safety requirements and tech. also keep making cars heavier.


In very small amount and largely trial capacity. Look at test figures from magazines for kWh/100km not brochures. 20.3kWh/100km (AMuS test) for a Model 3 is about right yes. So it's over the top end of their estimate.

All you need is a bunch of solutions that your reference study suggests to be implemented nationwide, which would take forever and the scheduling, so as not to disrupt the economy would be a nightmare. This is a 30 year project minimum, probably more like 50.


If you want to ruin the remaining countryside. Better to wait for fusion power, distributed gen brings its own problems to the grid.

Weird. I think we are talking about different things. I'm referring to charging points, not the cars themselves.
 

randomradio

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Saaho

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Personally I think EVs are dangerous because nobody can hear them coming.
I kid you not, but I also thought same about Mercedes A series. These cars are way too silent! May be in coming years there will be regulations on certain level of noise OR automated horns for humans. I mean due to auto driver stuff they are building into these cars, it can now automatically detect humans on the road around them. May be some genius will figure out how to look it up to the car horn.

I agree but unfortunately too many people watched the Chernobyl mini-series and now think that a reactor can cause a "2-4MT" nuclear blast. We are replacing existing nuclear power stations but adding more is too politically hot. Hopefully fusion power will change that.
Well, when Fukushima Dai Ichii nuclear reactor blew up due to steam explosion, there were shrills crying "Cancer Epidemic! Cancer Epidemic!" all over the place. There has been a lot of mess since then (radioactive water leaking into pacific ocean) BUT that cancer epidemic failed to materialize.

Does not mean that radioactivity is harmless and we should be careless with it. Just means that it is controllable if done properly and even in disasters, if done properly, its after effects can be limited.
 
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randomradio

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China has agreed to buy $16 billion/year of Iranian oil in what amounts to a barter arrangement for Chinese goods. Telecommunications is specifically included, with a $billion or more for an upgraded mobile system. Huawei & ZTE will probably split the contract.

I don't think it's confirmed yet, but it's a pretty significant proposal. With $16B per year of oil, $XX B of gas and other petrochemicals, and an effective $23B of investments into the industry for the next 5 years, we are talking about a significant boost in Iranian revenues in a very short time. Could very well amount to $50B a year.
 
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A Person

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Hopefully fusion power will change that.
Fusion power isn't happening.

To get fusion power going, you need to keep the hydrogen at a ridiculously high pressure and temperature. To get this, you have two options. The first is to have several hundred thousand times the mass of the Earth in hydrogen, so that gravity will generate that pressure and temperature for you. This is what the Sun is doing, but there are a few issues that make this approach impractical to use on Earth...

The second option is to generate them by spending energy. This works just fine -- there are laboratories all over the world that can generate fusion right now! We've been generating fusion for over 60 years now! There's just the tiny nagging issue is that the energy spent is several orders of magnitude larger than the energy generated, so it cannot be used as a power source, ever. Additionally, a fusion reactor is self-destructing since the intense neutron bombardment generated by nuclear fusion will erode just about any material short of Unobtainium.
 

randomradio

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Fusion power isn't happening.

To get fusion power going, you need to keep the hydrogen at a ridiculously high pressure and temperature. To get this, you have two options. The first is to have several hundred thousand times the mass of the Earth in hydrogen, so that gravity will generate that pressure and temperature for you. This is what the Sun is doing, but there are a few issues that make this approach impractical to use on Earth...

The second option is to generate them by spending energy. This works just fine -- there are laboratories all over the world that can generate fusion right now! We've been generating fusion for over 60 years now! There's just the tiny nagging issue is that the energy spent is several orders of magnitude larger than the energy generated, so it cannot be used as a power source, ever. Additionally, a fusion reactor is self-destructing since the intense neutron bombardment generated by nuclear fusion will erode just about any material short of Unobtainium.

Thought you wouldn't be around. What's your opinion about the Iran deal?
 

BMD

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Fusion power isn't happening.

To get fusion power going, you need to keep the hydrogen at a ridiculously high pressure and temperature. To get this, you have two options. The first is to have several hundred thousand times the mass of the Earth in hydrogen, so that gravity will generate that pressure and temperature for you. This is what the Sun is doing, but there are a few issues that make this approach impractical to use on Earth...

The second option is to generate them by spending energy. This works just fine -- there are laboratories all over the world that can generate fusion right now! We've been generating fusion for over 60 years now! There's just the tiny nagging issue is that the energy spent is several orders of magnitude larger than the energy generated, so it cannot be used as a power source, ever. Additionally, a fusion reactor is self-destructing since the intense neutron bombardment generated by nuclear fusion will erode just about any material short of Unobtainium.
ITER, I understand, will yield a stable, net output. The plasma is contained in a magnetic field, which is enough heat to continue the reaction.
 

BMD

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Weird. I think we are talking about different things. I'm referring to charging points, not the cars themselves.
The 20.3kWh/100km refers to the consumption per 100km in relation to your linked reference, which quotes as low as 10kWh/100km.

The other problem is the network solutions, which would need to be planned, scheduled and rolled out over many decades, consuming a lot of energy in the process no doubt.
 

randomradio

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The 20.3kWh/100km refers to the consumption per 100km in relation to your linked reference, which quotes as low as 10kWh/100km.

It depends on the car.


The other problem is the network solutions, which would need to be planned, scheduled and rolled out over many decades, consuming a lot of energy in the process no doubt.

Decades? No. A few years? Yes.

Possible by 2030 in almost all middle income and advanced economies? Yes.

Any infra build up is entirely dependent on market forces. If people opt for EVs, then the infra will cater to that need very quickly.
 

A Person

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Thought you wouldn't be around. What's your opinion about the Iran deal?
I am around from time to time. The Iran-China deal is something that I expected to happen much sooner, as it was an inevitable outcome of the US walking out of the JCPA. In fact the timing makes me believe that China was just biding its time, waiting for the Iranian fruit to ripen fully before plucking it, and they're acting now out of fear that Biden could undo Trump's action and restore a working nuclear deal. It is in China's long-term interests to keep as many countries as possible fully out of the western sphere of influence, and there's no better way to achieve that than by making sure the west itself cuts all ties and exchanges with these countries. Iran, in particular, is an especially interesting country for China due to its strategic position and energy reserves. I also expect in the coming years, Iran's regional proxies (Hamas, Houthis, etc.) will increasingly become China's regional proxies.

Lebanon is probably next on the menu.
 

Volcano

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China is playing the game well and America is loosing it for now.

The deal also include "Joint research and development of weapons between China and Iran. The best option for China to keep US pressure down is by distracting America with other issues. Iran is already kicking Saudi *censored* in Yemen. In China help Iran to make more modern weaponry, Iran can drag American resources further into Middle east and away from China.
 

Nikhil

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There is basically no replacement for oil. Indian need to exploit those methane hydrates. we sit on world 2nd biggest reserves.