Airborne Early Warning Systems - A-50EI Phalcon, DRDO Netra AEW&C, DRDO AWACS

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
1,472
1,169
Republic of Wadiya
These guys are just stupid. A330 is far bigger platform for AWAC and so is IL-76. IN P-8s have far more stations for controllers than IL-76 based awac. Even A321 will have extra space. Every five years the size of electronic devices reduce by 50% and their capabilities increase 200%. What was good in 2010 is not the norm for 2025.
The original DRDO AWAC was based on Avro and had the chapati on top. Why cant an A321 have it. I will rather go for B737-800 as the platform because IAF already flies B737-700s as VIP Transport. We will have similarity of type training for pilots and also spares and also commonality with IN P-8s.
That's why some stupid people questioning rationale behind using older platform instead of brand spanking new is well....stupid.
In the next 10 to 15 years electronics of existing AWACS platforms will be next to useless and will be needing almost new hardware and then we can bring entirely new designs for more convenience. these AI jets are avilable right now and can be converted rapidly instead of waiting for new jets probably for years
@randomradio
PS: its definitely going to be rotodome as shown by DRDO CABS in Aero India
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,236
2,726
73
France
transition.wifeo.com

French E-2D Advanced Hawkeyes To Feature Aerial Refueling Capability

The future E-2D Advanced Hawkeyes of the French Navy (Marine Nationale) will come with aerial refueling capability, Naval News has learned from the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA).

Xavier Vavasseur 15 Dec 2020

For the record, the French Ministry of Armed Forces announced last month that it has approved the acquisition of three E-2D Advanced Hawkeye Airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft.

Contacted by Naval News, the DGA officer in charge of the E-2D program confirmed that the future French E-2Ds will feature aerial refueling capability:
“The French E-2Ds will be equipped with an in-flight refueling probe. The following French aircraft should be able to refuel them: Rafale M, A400M, MRTT, KC130J and future refuelers.”


DGA E-2D program director

Naval News understands that the “future refuelers” mentioned above is related to the future aircraft carrier’s air wing ability to refuel its own aircraft. This will be the Rafale M replacement (known as NGF) or could even be an unmanned aerial refueler (something similar to the MQ-25).
The upgrades to support aerial refueling include probe and associated piping, electrical and lighting upgrades. But this is not the only option that the French are looking at. To increase crew effectiveness during the longer missions (up to 8 hours thanks to in-flight-refueling), Northrop Grumman offers “optional air vehicle enhancements” consisting in:
  • Crew lavatory
  • Air conditioning
  • Ergonomic seats
  • Food and beverage galley
  • Noise canceling aviation headsets
The ergonomic seats and the air conditioning are part of the “basic” configuration for the French Navy, while the noise canceling headsets are still being considered. The special seats help enhance the field of view in the cockpit and reduce crew fatigue over longer missions.

Specific French sensors and mission computer aboard​

As we previously reported, the three E-2D aircraft ordered for the French Navy will be adapted to French requirements by integrating a specific computer, developed by the French Aerospace Industry Service (SIAé), which will guarantee the system’s autonomous upgrade capability. As explained by the DGA program director: “Its role is to enable the autonomous scalability of the mission system. Linked to the native computer on one side, and to French sensors on the other, it will allow the addition of extra French sensors and their evolution without modifying the native system, which would require American intervention. There are also elements necessary for purely French missions. Its size is compatible with a standard aeronautical payload.”

Advanced Hawkeye, CEC and Veille Coopérative Navale​



The Advanced Hawkeye is an enabler of the american Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC). The CEC allows the ship to receive targeting information from other assets, such as US Navy and Royal Australian Navy AEGIS destroyers or American and Japanese E-2D aircraft.

According to Naval News‘ Japanese contributor Yoshihiro Inaba, Japan’s E-2D won’t have the CEC capability from the get go however: They will need an upgrade at some point. Indeed, E-2Ds numbered 471 to 474 (the first four JASDF E-2D) are missing the USG-3B, a system necessary for CEC. The AN/USG-3B acts as the CEC Sensor Netting System. It is produced by DRS Laurel Technologies. According to the Japanese Minister of Defense, this system will be installed at a later date. According to Inaba, the most probable possibility is that USG-3B will be installed on the E-2Ds once the SM-6 missile are fitted aboard the Maya-class destroyers. It will be interesting to see if Japan’s E-2Ds from the second batch will come with USG-3B already installed.

E-2D and Veille Coopérative Navale​

The French Navy is working on the “Veille Coopérative Navale” (naval cooperative watch), a capability currently under development based on the principle of networking all the data of the sensors of a naval air force. It differs from tactical data linking by exchanging raw and much more accurate information directly from sensors, not from elaborate data. In the future, with the Veille Coopérative Navale , the French Navy will have an optimized picture of the threat and sufficient information to implement even more effectively an anti missile system, facilitating the choice of the most suitable platform to deal with the threat, in a similar fashion to the American CEC system. In a European first, the French Navy demonstrated a cooperative engagement between two of its surface vessels. This first “Veille Coopérative Navale” live test took place in September 2019.


Naval News asked the DGA if the French Navy E-2Ds will come with the CEC systems and whether it will have a role to play with Marine National’s own “Veille Coopérative Navale” system:

“We do not plan to import the CEC. Its French equivalent is currently being developed with the concept of Veille Coopérative Navale, which will be gradually ramped up in the Navy, and in which the E-2D will eventually be included.”

DGA E-2D program director

French E-2Ds Delivered in 2028​

The French E-2D Advanced Hawkeyes are set to enter production at the Northrop Grumman plant in St Augustine, Florida, in 2024. They will be delivered by the U.S. Navy in 2028. The Aircraft will then be flown from the United States to France for delivery. the three aircraft will be delivered close together.

Upon their arrival in France, “They will be divided between DGA Essais en vol and CEPA for the tests/experiments, the 4F fleet for its transformation, and SIAé (AIA Cuers-Pierrefeu) for the installation of French equipment” the program director added. DGA Essais en vol is primarily responsible for ensuring the proper functioning of aeronautical weapons and aircraft before their use by the French military. The CEPA/10S is the Air Test and Evaluation Squadron of the French Navy.

“Its role is to enable the autonomous scalability of the mission system. Linked to the native computer on one side, and to French sensors on the other, it will allow the addition of extra French sensors and their evolution without modifying the native system, which would require American intervention. There are also elements necessary for purely French missions. Its size is compatible with a standard aeronautical payload.”

[.....]

The French Navy is working on the “Veille Coopérative Navale” (naval cooperative watch), a capability currently under development based on the principle of networking all the data of the sensors of a naval air force. It differs from tactical data linking by exchanging raw and much more accurate information directly from sensors, not from elaborate data. In the future, with the Veille Coopérative Navale , the French Navy will have an optimized picture of the threat and sufficient information to implement even more effectively an anti missile system, facilitating the choice of the most suitable platform to deal with the threat, in a similar fashion to the American CEC system. In a European first, the French Navy demonstrated a cooperative engagement between two of its surface vessels. This first “Veille Coopérative Navale” live test took place in September 2019.


It sould be interesting for Indian AWACS to develop such capabilities because Rafale will work with these concepts from the F4.2 standard.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,850
8,196
India
These guys are just stupid. A330 is far bigger platform for AWAC and so is IL-76. IN P-8s have far more stations for controllers than IL-76 based awac. Even A321 will have extra space. Every five years the size of electronic devices reduce by 50% and their capabilities increase 200%. What was good in 2010 is not the norm for 2025.
The original DRDO AWAC was based on Avro and had the chapati on top. Why cant an A321 have it. I will rather go for B737-800 as the platform because IAF already flies B737-700s as VIP Transport. We will have similarity of type training for pilots and also spares and also commonality with IN P-8s.

Yep. Many people do not know of the deficiencies of balance beam or top hat, which is why all these meaningless speculations. This AWACS will definitely have a disc. People seem to have forgotten not just the Avro, but even the Hawkeye.

Anyway, they must have already thought of the B-737. Perhaps there are political problems with bringing the US into this when there are no strings attached with France. Plus the A320 has a pretty large presence in India already.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustCurious

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,719
772
Mumbai
Yep. Many people do not know of the deficiencies of balance beam or top hat, which is why all these meaningless speculations. This AWACS will definitely have a disc. People seem to have forgotten not just the Avro, but even the Hawkeye.

Anyway, they must have already thought of the B-737. Perhaps there are political problems with bringing the US into this when there are no strings attached with France. Plus the A320 has a pretty large presence in India already.
Avro awacs was a single panel radar on a rotating dome.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustCurious

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,586
7,414
Bangalore
AEW&C Mk-2. AoN for procurement of Six AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control) Mk-2 aircraft with associated equipment has been granted by DAC on 17 December 2020 under ‘Buy (Indian-IDDM)’ category. The platform for the system is likely to be pre-owned Airbus A-319/321 aircraft from Air India. The mission system Design and Development as well as maintenance of the system will be carried out indigenously thus providing a fillip of Indian defence industries. The project, therefore, is likely to give a major boost to ‘Atamnirbhar Bharat’.


 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
14,147
10,175
Mumbai
View attachment 19164

Credit: Vayu magazine

Dream of full fledged AWACS is now officially over.
I think we ought to wait for 2022.

The AWACS aren't going anywhere. It's merely postponed. Right now due to budgetary & procurement constraints, this is the best DRDO & MoD could come up with. Besides, ACM Bhadauria is on record saying the IAF could do with low cost variants of Netra. So, here you are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,675
592
UK, Pakistan
Is it possible to mounte an aesa radar on nose? So that it will have better coverage than current radar setup.
Well yes. Some TR modules can be mounted at the front and back of the plane for 360 degree coverage. But I guess its technically challenging and programming is difficult.
Thats where roto dome is better. It rotates and gives 360 degrees coverage.
These balance beam antennas have their own advantages such as low drag and suitable for smaller planes, but 360 degrees coverage can only be obtained be flying the plane in a rather zig zag way, or that's what I have heard.
For Roto dome , with big drag, bigger planes are needed.

I am writing just from memory, and what I was told a while ago, and those balance beam are also tricky when it comes to cooling the TR modules which are tightly packed and produce lots of heat.

I guess Roto done due to bigger size, has active cooling inside the dome.

Beam antenna relies on air flow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot and Hydra

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,850
8,196
India
View attachment 19164

Credit: Vayu magazine

Dream of full fledged AWACS is now officially over.

It is a full-fledged AWACS.

Although the dome has been eliminated, the aircraft should be able to carry S band radars in the nose and rear for 360 deg capability.

The main point of an AWACS is not what it carries outside, although that's important, it's about the size of the crew, workstations and other hardware carried inside. The Embraer-based AEWCS wasn't big enough for the carriage of all the avionics and workstations needed to make it a full-fledged AWACS, but this design is.

It's just sad that our defence journos are incapable of taking pictures from important angles, rather they are simply concerned about the aesthetics of the pictures. The TEDBF model is the same, the most important are the front, top, side and rear profiles, but all we have are weird angles, the same as the pictures for the AWACS. We also need a proper count of the workstations, considering the model is even close to the real thing. But it should be able to carry 11 workstations as on the Phalcon, perhaps more. There appears to be 12 workstations though. There also appears to be enough space at the back for a backup crew apart from other passengers. 3 rows of 6 passengers each gives us 18 passenger seats.

Hence it's a full-fledged AWACS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,675
592
UK, Pakistan
It is a full-fledged AWACS.

Although the dome has been eliminated, the aircraft should be able to carry S band radars in the nose and rear for 360 deg capability.

The main point of an AWACS is not what it carries outside, although that's important, it's about the size of the crew, workstations and other hardware carried inside. The Embraer-based AEWCS wasn't big enough for the carriage of all the avionics and workstations needed to make it a full-fledged AWACS, but this design is.

It's just sad that our defence journos are incapable of taking pictures from important angles, rather they are simply concerned about the aesthetics of the pictures. The TEDBF model is the same, the most important are the front, top, side and rear profiles, but all we have are weird angles, the same as the pictures for the AWACS. We also need a proper count of the workstations, considering the model is even close to the real thing. But it should be able to carry 11 workstations as on the Phalcon, perhaps more. There appears to be 12 workstations though. There also appears to be enough space at the back for a backup crew apart from other passengers. 3 rows of 6 passengers each gives us 18 passenger seats.

Hence it's a full-fledged AWACS.
I guess Erieye has 5 stations.
The Israeli AWACS you guys use has more.
But likewise the turnaround time required for a bigger plane is more.
The requirements of larger airfields and runways.
Ours being a narrow country in which any airfield is less than 20 minutes away from indian air or cruise missile attack, we need smaller planes which can take off quicker and has short turnaround time.
India being a wider and bigger country can have the luxury of bigger AWACS.

Different countries, different needs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot and Hydra

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,850
8,196
India
I guess Erieye has 5 stations.
The Israeli AWACS you guys use has more.
But likewise the turnaround time required for a bigger plane is more.
The requirements of larger airfields and runways.
Ours being a narrow country in which any airfield is less than 20 minutes away from indian air or cruise missile attack, we need smaller planes which can take off quicker and has short turnaround time.
India being a wider and bigger country can have the luxury of bigger AWACS.

Different countries, different needs.

Yep, which is why an aircraft like the Embraer doesn't suit our needs. Had DRDO used the same NETRA hardware on an A-320 or similar since the beginning instead of the Embraer, we would have had a constant flow of repeat orders from the IAF and avoided all the delays in starting AWACS-India.

The issue with the Embraer is it's a very shitty aircraft for surveillance, they should have used something that was a bit more larger and capable like the Gulfstream 550 or Global 5000. But alas DRDO natutally cheaped out of making a good decision.

As for Pakistan, it was an affordability problem. AWACS should be on jets not props. Due to being a small country, the biggest problem is not turnaround, it's survivability. There's no point in having better turnaround if it's only a one-sortie king.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,675
592
UK, Pakistan
Yep, which is why an aircraft like the Embraer doesn't suit our needs. Had DRDO used the same NETRA hardware on an A-320 or similar since the beginning instead of the Embraer, we would have had a constant flow of repeat orders from the IAF and avoided all the delays in starting AWACS-India.

The issue with the Embraer is it's a very shitty aircraft for surveillance, they should have used something that was a bit more larger and capable like the Gulfstream 550 or Global 5000. But alas DRDO natutally cheaped out of making a good decision.

As for Pakistan, it was an affordability problem. AWACS should be on jets not props. Due to being a small country, the biggest problem is not turnaround, it's survivability. There's no point in having better turnaround if it's only a one-sortie king.
Awacs survive due to their high range of radars compared to fighter jets and their missiles.
Not due to jet ot prop engine
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,850
8,196
India
Awacs survive due to their high range of radars compared to fighter jets and their missiles.
Not due to jet ot prop engine

Not really. The idea is they need to be able to run away when threatened. Mach 0.9 is more important than mach 0.6. Once its escort is distracted, its speed that helps it more than radar range. It's because a fighter jet can sustain a mach 1.3 speed for a long time allowing it to catch up. So a fighter jet managing twice the speed of an AWACS will enable it to catch up without losing as much fuel and kill it at close range while it's quite unlikely when the speed difference is just 25% or so when the AWACS does mach 0.9. It gets even worse due to supercruise. Otoh, a fighter jet doesn't have the fuel supplies to keep it going at mach 1.8 in order to duplicate the result with the prop. A Su-30 can sustain a mach 1.3 speed for 30 min with half its fuel load, but falls to just a few minutes at mach 1.8. And all this without even considering AWACS killers.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,675
592
UK, Pakistan
Not really. The idea is they need to be able to run away when threatened. Mach 0.9 is more important than mach 0.6. Once its escort is distracted, its speed that helps it more than radar range. It's because a fighter jet can sustain a mach 1.3 speed for a long time allowing it to catch up. So a fighter jet managing twice the speed of an AWACS will enable it to catch up without losing as much fuel and kill it at close range while it's quite unlikely when the speed difference is just 25% or so when the AWACS does mach 0.9. It gets even worse due to supercruise. Otoh, a fighter jet doesn't have the fuel supplies to keep it going at mach 1.8 in order to duplicate the result with the prop. A Su-30 can sustain a mach 1.3 speed for 30 min with half its fuel load, but falls to just a few minutes at mach 1.8. And all this without even considering AWACS killers.
AWACS detects threat way before it becomes a threat, and directs assets towards it.
It cannot outrun or out maneuver a fighter jet or a missile, no matter which plane is being used.

For Pakistan the Saab-2000 platform costs 800 usd per hour to run.
A jet powered same sized plane will cost 2000 usd per flight hour.
An IL-76 costs 15000 and above per flying hour.

So for us , finance is also an important factor for choosing the plane.