Agni & Prithvi Ballistic Missiles : News & Discussions

ASL , DRDL , DRDO, BDL.
That's four organisations involved in development of one seemingly simple missile Agni-1?
They might be up to something.

Actually, they have completely different jobs.
  • BDL - Bharat Dynamics Ltd. are the actual manufacturers of missiles and rockets;
  • DRDO - Defence Research and Development Organisation is the total organisation. It does no work by itself, it supervises specific laboratories, workshops, and plants that do very specialised things;
  • DRDL - Defence Research and Development Laboratory is the design and development lab. under DRDO that 'does' missile and rocket design, up to flight evaluation. Once the military clears it, it is handed over (typically to BDL) for production;
  • ASL - Again, the Advanced Systems Laboratory works on design and development lab., also under DRDO. What they do different from DRDL is not known to me. They didn't exist when I was working with some of their associated labs.
So the only duplication, if it is a duplication, is ASL and DRDL.

@suryakiran
 
Indian missile program is a bit confusing at times.
Almost all missiles had been developed separately and only in later stages some shared components.
A-4 and A-5 use the same warhead but developed from different pedigrees.
K-15 uses Agni 1 or 2 warhead and K-4 uses Agni 5 warhead. There seems to be no pattern, no pre planning.
SLBM series should have been MIRV from day one, not something left to be added later
Agni-1 re-entry vehicle is the only one in the Indian arsenal which can be used in MIRV configuration on a 2 meters or wider missile, such as A-5..
By comparison Pakistan uses Shaheen-1A as test vehicle for two other missiles, the Shaheen-3 and Ababeel. Guidance and othersystems and re-entry vehicle behaviour was first tested on Shaheen-1A and then the RV deployed on Shaheen-3 and Ababeel.
Grouping together missiles and deployment of technology tested on one on others saves time and money.
India doesn't seem to be doing that.
The warhead sizes and weight are adjustable and not fixed. The MIRV technology is upgradable by changing third stage as MIRV starts from there. The chips and programming also may have to be altered which is a relatively simple task. The missiles don't have fixed warhead weight. Shaurya missile for example, can increase or decrease range according to the weight of warhead. It diameter is also same as Agni 1. Agni 1 also is said to be able to carry "upto" 1 ton which means the weight can be adjusted for increase in range. WIth a warhead of 400kg, the range can more than double. The cone on the missile is not the warhead. The warhead lies inside the cone and its dimensions doesn't affect the aerodynamics of the missile. The cone will be separated after the burnout of fuel and the reentry vehicle warhead is then made to reenter atmosphere on its own

ASL , DRDL , DRDO, BDL.
That's four organisations involved in development of one seemingly simple missile Agni-1?
They might be up to something.
The 3 organisations - ASL, DRDL, DRDO are same. DRDO is the main organisation while the other two- ASL & DRDL are laboratories of DRDO (the L stands for laboratory). BDL is the manufacturer which manufactures the missile. BDL does not develop the technology.
 
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Actually, they have completely different jobs.
  • BDL - Bharat Dynamics Ltd. are the actual manufacturers of missiles and rockets;
  • DRDO - Defence Research and Development Organisation is the total organisation. It does no work by itself, it supervises specific laboratories, workshops, and plants that do very specialised things;
  • DRDL - Defence Research and Development Laboratory is the design and development lab. under DRDO that 'does' missile and rocket design, up to flight evaluation. Once the military clears it, it is handed over (typically to BDL) for production;
  • ASL - Again, the Advanced Systems Laboratory works on design and development lab., also under DRDO. What they do different from DRDL is not known to me. They didn't exist when I was working with some of their associated labs.
So the only duplication, if it is a duplication, is ASL and DRDL.

@suryakiran

Hey!

I was asking for your help sorting out ASL from DRDL.
 
Actually, they have completely different jobs.
  • BDL - Bharat Dynamics Ltd. are the actual manufacturers of missiles and rockets;
  • DRDO - Defence Research and Development Organisation is the total organisation. It does no work by itself, it supervises specific laboratories, workshops, and plants that do very specialised things;
  • DRDL - Defence Research and Development Laboratory is the design and development lab. under DRDO that 'does' missile and rocket design, up to flight evaluation. Once the military clears it, it is handed over (typically to BDL) for production;
  • ASL - Again, the Advanced Systems Laboratory works on design and development lab., also under DRDO. What they do different from DRDL is not known to me. They didn't exist when I was working with some of their associated labs.
So the only duplication, if it is a duplication, is ASL and DRDL.

@suryakiran

As far as I know, DRDL, is no longer the main organisation for the strategic missiles. All the K-series and Agni series are now under the ASL. Other labs do provide inputs to the ASL. DRDL handles the analysis of testing or something like that, as far as the above 2 series are concerned. Will need to check to actually confirm what they are up to in the 2 programs. But, it is definitely not the main lab for those K and Agni series.

Were you with the DRDO? Which labs were you working with?
 
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As far as I know, DRDL, is no longer the main organisation for the strategic missiles. All the K-series and Agni series are now under the ASL. Other labs do provide inputs to the ASL. DRDL handles the analysis of testing or something like that, as far as the above 2 series are concerned. Will need to check to actually confirm what they are up to in the 2 programs. But, it is definitely not the main lab for those K and Agni series.

Were you with the DRDO? Which labs were you working with?

Not with the DRDO, but working with them externally, organisation to organisation. We had the most to do with HAL's Hyderabad unit, very good engineers, but limited in number. They had all the Ada talent in India, until we developed more than a hundred programmers. The DRDO units we were involved with were LRDE, DLRL and (a great collective pain in the *censored*) GTRE. GTRE were the pits. We were asked to digitise their drawings and check the interfacing and clearances, and what we found still makes me cold with horror. A neutron bomb on that establishment would fast forward all our aviation projects by a dozen years at least.
 
Not with the DRDO, but working with them externally, organisation to organisation. We had the most to do with HAL's Hyderabad unit, very good engineers, but limited in number. They had all the Ada talent in India, until we developed more than a hundred programmers. The DRDO units we were involved with were LRDE, DLRL and (a great collective pain in the *censored*) GTRE. GTRE were the pits. We were asked to digitise their drawings and check the interfacing and clearances, and what we found still makes me cold with horror. A neutron bomb on that establishment would fast forward all our aviation projects by a dozen years at least.

If the general public (read fanboys) knew what our dependence on Russian and Germans were for our early 'indigenous' programs they would weep till kingdom come. Not that I disagree with what we did.
 
The warhead sizes and weight are adjustable and not fixed. The MIRV technology is upgradable by changing third stage as MIRV starts from there. The chips and programming also may have to be altered which is a relatively simple task. The missiles don't have fixed warhead weight. Shaurya missile for example, can increase or decrease range according to the weight of warhead. It diameter is also same as Agni 1. Agni 1 also is said to be able to carry "upto" 1 ton which means the weight can be adjusted for increase in range. WIth a warhead of 400kg, the range can more than double. The cone on the missile is not the warhead. The warhead lies inside the cone and its dimensions doesn't affect the aerodynamics of the missile. The cone will be separated after the burnout of fuel and the reentry vehicle warhead is then made to reenter atmosphere on its own


The 3 organisations - ASL, DRDL, DRDO are same. DRDO is the main organisation while the other two- ASL & DRDL are laboratories of DRDO (the L stands for laboratory). BDL is the manufacturer which manufactures the missile. BDL does not develop the technology.
Well yes the cone is not warhead but gives you an idea what lies underneath. There cannot be gaping wide empty space underneath the nose cone as it will increase drag . So the nosecone size and shape closely matches the size and shape of warhead.
A nuclear warhead is the most complicated component of any missile program . The most expensive missile the Trident SLBM costs around 30 million dollars a piece . But single nuclear warhead can cost double and upwards of that. It's due to the cost of materials and r&d . One gram of weapons grade plutonium costs 8000 USD and upwards. How many kilograms are used per nuclear warhead? You calculate yourself.
Nuclear warhead size and weight are fixed and cannot be changed without completing redesign and that costs lots of money and time.
The wide range of warhead weight mentioned for ballistic missiles is for nuclear and other non nuclear of varying size and weight.
For example Agni can carry say , 700 kg nuclear warhead and up to a ton of conventional instead of that.
Weight of nuclear warheads remains fixed.
 
Well yes the cone is not warhead but gives you an idea what lies underneath. There cannot be gaping wide empty space underneath the nose cone as it will increase drag . So the nosecone size and shape closely matches the size and shape of warhead.
A nuclear warhead is the most complicated component of any missile program . The most expensive missile the Trident SLBM costs around 30 million dollars a piece . But single nuclear warhead can cost double and upwards of that. It's due to the cost of materials and r&d . One gram of weapons grade plutonium costs 8000 USD and upwards. How many kilograms are used per nuclear warhead? You calculate yourself.
Nuclear warhead size and weight are fixed and cannot be changed without completing redesign and that costs lots of money and time.
The wide range of warhead weight mentioned for ballistic missiles is for nuclear and other non nuclear of varying size and weight.
For example Agni can carry say , 700 kg nuclear warhead and up to a ton of conventional instead of that.
Weight of nuclear warheads remains fixed.
The cost of plutonium is not 8000 USD per gram when manufactured. Generally, these are manufactured in reactors that geenrate electricity too. So, the plutonium can be considered as a by product. The cost of reactor too, is merely a notional cost as the actual cost of R&D etc are very old and are strategic in nature, not business type. So, the cost of plutonium is not really high and is mostly recovered by distributing the electricity generated. Also, the nuclear warheads are continually upgraded and materials changed/recycled to ensure that they are operational and hasn't deteriorated. The Uranium/plutonium are are also recycled. Generally, most of the cost is fixed costs under the salary component and not capital costs.

The cost of Uranium is $50000 per ton. It has 7.1 kg of U235. So, per kg U235 cost will be $7000. 1 ton of natural Uranium can give 5kg of plutonium in PHWR reactor if production run is used. So, 1 bomb per ton of Uranium can be made with material cost of $50000. Since the other material costs are also not too high and the remaining cost is labour which is fixed cost of salary, the cost of a fission bomb is not really high.

Trident missile can use warheads of either W88 or W76, for example. Similarly, the size of the warhead can be varied on other missiles too. The gap between the cone can always be filled with some ceramic or light weight fillers.
 
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The cost of plutonium is not 8000 USD per gram when manufactured. Generally, these are manufactured in reactors that geenrate electricity too. So, the plutonium can be considered as a by product. The cost of reactor too, is merely a notional cost as the actual cost of R&D etc are very old and are strategic in nature, not business type. So, the cost of plutonium is not really high and is mostly recovered by distributing the electricity generated. Also, the nuclear warheads are continually upgraded and materials changed/recycled to ensure that they are operational and hasn't deteriorated. The Uranium/plutonium are are also recycled. Generally, most of the cost is fixed costs under the salary component and not capital costs.

The cost of Uranium is $50000 per ton. It has 7.1 kg of U235. So, per kg U235 cost will be $7000. 1 ton of natural Uranium can give 5kg of plutonium in PHWR reactor if production run is used. So, 1 bomb per ton of Uranium can be made with material cost of $50000. Since the other material costs are also not too high and the remaining cost is labour which is fixed cost of salary, the cost of a fission bomb is not really high.

Trident missile can use warheads of either W88 or W76, for example. Similarly, the size of the warhead can be varied on other missiles too. The gap between the cone can always be filled with some ceramic or light weight fillers.
Yes, warhead weight cannot be changed but an entirely different design of warhead can be loaded on the missile, such as the example of Trident mentioned, two different types of warheads, either of which can be loaded on Trident.
The cost of plutonium I mentioned was retail, but if made by country themselves, even if making costs is lower , the time frame needed of extract a kilo of plutonium from uranium fuel rods is too long a wait.
Do look into the physics of it, how many atoms of uranium actually convert to plutonium per million and how long it takes.
Since missile mountable nuclear warheads have to be compact there is significant amount of plutonium used, as pure uranium wahead will be too heavy for same yield .
Keeping In mind all above, countries don't design a separate warhead type for each missile. Only a few box standard types are designed and missiles made accordingly.
From Pakistan's point of view. Ghauri series uses the initially designed 700 kg warhead.
Shaheen series has two variants.
Ghaznavi has a separate design and was a test vehicle for many years .
In total we have 3 or 4 warhead designs shared between.
Two types of Ghauri.
Abdali.
Ghaznavi.
Shaheen, Shaheen-1 , Shaheen-1A of which there are two variants.
Shaheen 2.
Shaheen-3.
Ababeel.

That's 11 types of strategic ballistic missiles Sharing just three warhead designs.

Then a special variant for Nasr
And just one nuclear warhead design shared between all Pakistan's cruise missiles.
And we have three types of Babur and two types of Raad ALCM.
That's one warhead design for 5 types of cruise missiles.

The grand total would be .
17 types of nuclear capable missiles sharing 6 designs of nuclear warheads.
 
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India test fires medium range nuclear capable Agni-II missile

BALASORE: India today test-fired its medium range nuclear capable Agni-II missile with a strike range of 2,000 km from Abdul Kalam Island off Odisha coast, Defence sources said.

The trial of the surface-to-surface missile was conducted from a mobile launcher at the Launch Complex-4 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at around 8.38 am, the sources said.

The Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) has already been inducted into the services and today's test was carried out by the Army's Strategic Forces Command (SFC) with logistic support provided by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), they said.

The 20-mt-long Agni-II ballistic missile has a launch weight of 17 tonne and can carry a payload of 1,000 kg over a distance of 2,000 kms.

The state-of-the-art missile, already a part of the country's arsenal for strategic deterrence, was launched as a training exercise by the armed forces, a DRDO scientist said.

Agni-II, a two-stage missile, equipped with advanced high accuracy navigation system and guided by a unique command and control system was propelled by solid rocket propellant system, he said.

The entire trajectory of the trial was tracked by a battery of sophisticated radars, telemetry observation stations, electro-optic instruments and two naval ships located near the impact point in the down range area of the Bay of Bengal.

Agni-II was developed by the Advanced Systems Laboratory along with other DRDO laboratories and integrated by the Bharat Dynamics Limited, Hyderabad, sources said.

The missile is part of the Agni series of missiles which includes the Agni-I with a 700 km range, Agni-III with a 3,000 km range, Agni-IV and Agni-V both having long range capabilities.

The first proto type of the Agni-II missile was carried out on April 11, 1999 and last launch was a user's trial on May 4, 2017.

India test fires medium range nuclear capable Agni-II missile
 
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Dexe_lRW0AAvEyG.jpg
 
Well yes the cone is not warhead but gives you an idea what lies underneath. There cannot be gaping wide empty space underneath the nose cone as it will increase drag . So the nosecone size and shape closely matches the size and shape of warhead.
A nuclear warhead is the most complicated component of any missile program . The most expensive missile the Trident SLBM costs around 30 million dollars a piece . But single nuclear warhead can cost double and upwards of that. It's due to the cost of materials and r&d . One gram of weapons grade plutonium costs 8000 USD and upwards. How many kilograms are used per nuclear warhead? You calculate yourself.
Nuclear warhead size and weight are fixed and cannot be changed without completing redesign and that costs lots of money and time.
The wide range of warhead weight mentioned for ballistic missiles is for nuclear and other non nuclear of varying size and weight.
For example Agni can carry say , 700 kg nuclear warhead and up to a ton of conventional instead of that.
Weight of nuclear warheads remains fixed.

not necessarily. Cone design is alined to be aerodynamic with the main body of the missile. Even if you miniaturize the warhead inside you might still opt for the same cone because it has been aerodynamically tested and validated in multiple flights.
 
But why camo a missile inside a canister. :cautious:
Point to be noted :D.
About the need of canisterization. Since composite material is being used on Agni,it needs protection from elements.
Also as a weight saving measure, certain parts such as the cable runners are not reinforced enough to be left out in rain and sun for xtended periods of time.
No such problems in a missile made of metal, but metal is heavy.