Agni & Prithvi Ballistic Missiles : News & Discussions

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,732
621
UK, Pakistan
We dont have very small warhead with high yield now because we dont have MIRV capable missile. Once we have that, surely you will see smaller warheads.

True. Countries like to spend money on weapons when it is appropriate and necessary.
A gram of Gold costs 21 USD, a gram of weapons grade Plutonium costs 4000 to 8000 USD and you need a few kilograms of the stuff per warhead. Then the cost of Uranium,other materials and R&D.
Per warhead it can cost upwards of 50 Million Dollars.
On the contrary the world's most advanced Missile Trident II costs 37 Million USD,BUT r&d costs can run into hundreds of millions or Billions.
So it is a fine balance.Neither missiles nor Warheads are built just because someone else did so,or jest because the country can do it .There has to be areal need.
Pakistan built MIRV to counter Indian ABM, they wouldn't have done it if India was not improving on their ABM capacity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonobashi

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
14,520
10,495
Mumbai
Pakistan built MIRV to counter Indian ABM, they wouldn't have done it if India was not improving on their ABM capacity.


Can you cite any neutral source ( & I mean neutral sources not Chinese or Pakistani sources ) backing up your claim of "Pakistan built MIRV?" What's the yield and no of such warheads launched by a BM? Please specify the range as well , if you can .
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,732
621
UK, Pakistan
Can you cite any neutral source ( & I mean neutral sources not Chinese or Pakistani sources ) backing up your claim of "Pakistan built MIRV?" What's the yield and no of such warheads launched by a BM? Please specify the range as well , if you can .
In 2010 BBC reported development of Pakistan's MIRV .
Link here.
Pakistan's growing nuclear programme

Also ISPR Official press release clearly mentioned MIRV . Did any DRDO press release ever claim MIRV capability on any Indian missiles? They only say it's under development. So there's the difference

IMG_20180123_020509.jpg


This old video of a press conference mentioned the weight of Pakistan's strategic nuclear warhead mounted on Guauri

This payload weight of 700 kg which may also include weight of PBV. The warhead may be 500 kg.

The smallest sized strategic warhead used by Pakistan is the one revealed on Shaheen-1A in 2012.
It is used on Shaheen-3 and Ababeel in MIRV configuration.
1.6 m wide Shaheen-3 first and second stages were used on Ababeel MIRV and 1.6 m wide third stage of Ababeel is a new stage never seen before.
The top portion is the 1.8 meter wide MIRV Bus which carries three 0.74 meter wide RV which is the same used on Shaheen-1A and Shaheen-3.
C4H9VsJWcAAsv-p.jpg
 
Last edited:

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
14,520
10,495
Mumbai
In 2010 BBC reported development of Pakistan's MIRV .
Link here.
Pakistan's growing nuclear programme.[/QUOTE]

The report just makes just a cursory mention of an MIRV programme . It doesn't cite any reference nor elaborates on it . Theres nothing in the nature of an expose here .Arguably , reportage of such programmes would always be speculative in nature .

Also ISPR Official press release clearly mentioned MIRV . Did any DRDO press release ever claim MIRV capability on any Indian missiles? They only say it's under development. So there's the difference..

I don't think any member here ever claimed India already has mastery over MIRV . Regardless , no Indian agency or the GoI has ever made such claims . As of now it's work in progress .

View attachment 1485

This old video of a press conference mentioned the weight of Pakistan's strategic nuclear warhead mounted on Guauri

This payload weight of 700 kg which may also include weight of PBV. The warhead may be 500 kg.

The smallest sized strategic warhead used by Pakistan is the one revealed on Shaheen-1A in 2012.
It is used on Shaheen-3 and Ababeel in MIRV configuration.
1.6 m widebShaheen-3 first and second states were used on Ababeel MIRV and 1.6 m wide third stage of Ababeel is a new stage never seen before.
The top portion is the 1.8 meter wide MIRV Bus .

If Pakistan truly has" achieved MIRV technological capability ", it deserves fulsome praise and many congratulations though a logical mind would always question why aren't tests of such capabilities undertaken more frequently to refine or fine tune such abilities .
Unless ,as with most other technologies you've "mastered ," it has already achieved such a degree of sophistication , in your very first attempt , that nothing further need be done save to move on to the next level/challenge.

Having said that , I'm sure you'd agree it's all the more reason and impetus for the Indians to strive harder to achieve such goals now that Pakistan has "achieved a breakthrough in MIRV technology " just as our modest attempts at mastery in ABM technologies should spur identical endeavours in yours.
 
Last edited:

TARGET

Well-Known member
Dec 2, 2017
544
430
Though MIRV is a old technology, I am not sure about its accurateness, If you see MIRV missile it works like a projectile fired from space just like an artillery fire …no guidance system involved (only warhead ejection). it’s more related to mathematically calculated system (release at a specific height at a specific angle ). In case there will be an error ( .01%) there will be no chance of recovery …where as in case of the satellite they do have their own navigational mechanism same with single warhead missile.



Multiple satellite lunch and MIRV is very much similar in technology, The only difference is re-entry to the atmosphere, In case of India, we have a stable technology of ejection system and re-entry. Why we have not shown the capability maybe we have different priorities like ABM, AIR TO AIR …XYZ but I hope there will be some resources assigned AGNI 6.
Video talks about ABM and ICBM (MIRV).

 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,732
621
UK, Pakistan
Though MIRV is a old technology, I am not sure about its accurateness, If you see MIRV missile it works like a projectile fired from space just like an artillery fire …no guidance system involved (only warhead ejection). it’s more related to mathematically calculated system (release at a specific height at a specific angle ). In case there will be an error ( .01%) there will be no chance of recovery …where as in case of the satellite they do have their own navigational mechanism same with single warhead missile.



Multiple satellite lunch and MIRV is very much similar in technology, The only difference is re-entry to the atmosphere, In case of India, we have a stable technology of ejection system and re-entry. Why we have not shown the capability maybe we have different priorities like ABM, AIR TO AIR …XYZ but I hope there will be some resources assigned AGNI 6.
Video talks about ABM and ICBM (MIRV).

The downside of MIRV is that too many of your nuclear assets get tied up to just one launcher and if something goes wrong with the launcher, you lose a significant portion of your nuclear strike capability.
A Shaheen-3 TEL if hit by Indian air raids will cause the loss or temporary unavailability of just one warhead
Same thing happening to an Ababeel launcher will cause the loss of three warheads.
So like anything in the world, there are good things and bad things about MIRV capability.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonobashi

TARGET

Well-Known member
Dec 2, 2017
544
430
The downside of MIRV is that too many of your nuclear assets get tied up to just one launcher and if something goes wrong with the launcher, you lose a significant portion of your nuclear strike capability.
A Shaheen-3 TEL if hit by Indian air raids will cause the loss or temporary unavailability of just one warhead
Same thing happening to an Ababeel launcher will cause the loss of three warheads.
So like anything in the world, there are good things and bad things about MIRV capability.

I guess if missile failed or attack on missile launcher, it may or may not trigger the warhead just like that because there will be some kind of programmed trigger mechanism based on the parameter.But yes the solid fuel in missile may ignite but not the warhead,

From India point of view, all enemy missile will be categorized based on speed, size, and altitude ...to intercept by ABM …X, Y, Z
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
I guess if missile failed or attack on missile launcher, it may or may not trigger the warhead just like that because there will be some kind of programmed trigger mechanism based on the parameter.But yes the solid fuel in missile may ignite but not the warhead,

From India point of view, all enemy missile will be categorized based on speed, size, and altitude ...to intercept by ABM …X, Y, Z
The nuclear warhead won't be triggered but it will be damaged. By damaging the warhead and destroying the structural integrity of the structure, the warhead may never get triggered if fitted on another missile. So, the fissile material has to be removed and placed in another assembly, thereby causing temporarily taking out the warheads. If the warhead is destroyed and fissile material scattered, then the warhead is permanently lost.

Chemical/conventional warheads can be triggered unlike nuclear warheads in case the missile is taken out.

@safriz is right in saying this.
 
Last edited:

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
2,032
882
France
We dont have very small warhead with high yield now because we dont have MIRV capable missile. Once we have that, surely you will see smaller warheads.
I think it's the contrary.
A small warhead is "usefull" not only for MIRV or MARV purpose.
 

Arvind

The PoKeMon
Moderator
Dec 1, 2017
1,397
1,000
India
I think it's the contrary.
A small warhead is "usefull" not only for MIRV or MARV purpose.

No doubt, small warhead can help extend the maximum range of current arsenal. But then size of current missile diameter doesn't fully tells us the availability plus capability of having miniaturized warheads.
 

nair

nair
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
1,823
2,755
Bangalore
No doubt, small warhead can help extend the maximum range of current arsenal. But then size of current missile diameter doesn't fully tells us the availability plus capability of having miniaturized warheads.

When was the last time you heard about Indian Nuclear war heads from a reputed source????? What ever available in the out are guess works of the so called "Experts".... Let us agree none of us know or the world knows -

1) What is the number of war heads india possess
2) What is the size of the war heads
3) What is the state of war heads - Lot of has changed in last 5 years
4) What is the yeld of war heads we posses......

It is all guess work.......
 

Arvind

The PoKeMon
Moderator
Dec 1, 2017
1,397
1,000
India
When was the last time you heard about Indian Nuclear war heads from a reputed source????? What ever available in the out are guess works of the so called "Experts".... Let us agree none of us know or the world knows -

1) What is the number of war heads india possess
2) What is the size of the war heads
3) What is the state of war heads - Lot of has changed in last 5 years
4) What is the yeld of war heads we posses......

It is all guess work.......

Exactly, so arguing that since no miniaturized warhead has been put on display qualifies as having none is outright incorrect or purely speculations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonobashi

nair

nair
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
1,823
2,755
Bangalore
Exactly, so arguing that since no miniaturized warhead has been put on display qualifies as having none is outright incorrect or purely speculations.

The only thing we can speculate or analyse is the delivery systems...... Of which the details are available for almost all Land based missiles... How much details of K series available in open???? That is where the critical part of Indian nuclear doctrine lies.....

MIRV capabilities can be judged by the latest ISRO on board videos....;),
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
1,882
1,886
Bangalore
True. Countries like to spend money on weapons when it is appropriate and necessary.
A gram of Gold costs 21 USD, a gram of weapons grade Plutonium costs 4000 to 8000 USD and you need a few kilograms of the stuff per warhead. Then the cost of Uranium,other materials and R&D.
Per warhead it can cost upwards of 50 Million Dollars.
On the contrary the world's most advanced Missile Trident II costs 37 Million USD,BUT r&d costs can run into hundreds of millions or Billions.
So it is a fine balance.Neither missiles nor Warheads are built just because someone else did so,or jest because the country can do it .There has to be areal need.
Pakistan built MIRV to counter Indian ABM, they wouldn't have done it if India was not improving on their ABM capacity.
In 2010 BBC reported development of Pakistan's MIRV .
Link here.
Pakistan's growing nuclear programme

Also ISPR Official press release clearly mentioned MIRV . Did any DRDO press release ever claim MIRV capability on any Indian missiles? They only say it's under development. So there's the difference

View attachment 1485

This old video of a press conference mentioned the weight of Pakistan's strategic nuclear warhead mounted on Guauri

This payload weight of 700 kg which may also include weight of PBV. The warhead may be 500 kg.

The smallest sized strategic warhead used by Pakistan is the one revealed on Shaheen-1A in 2012.
It is used on Shaheen-3 and Ababeel in MIRV configuration.
1.6 m wide Shaheen-3 first and second stages were used on Ababeel MIRV and 1.6 m wide third stage of Ababeel is a new stage never seen before.
The top portion is the 1.8 meter wide MIRV Bus which carries three 0.74 meter wide RV which is the same used on Shaheen-1A and Shaheen-3.
View attachment 1486

Don't BLUFF about Pakistan having MIRV capabilities. We know where Pakistan's Nuclear capabilities stand. India is keeping a close very close watch on each & every nuke and missiles you posses, hence the Indian COAS remark we will call Pakistan's bluff off........ It is more a case of Empty Vessels Make More Noise.........

About India's MIRV capabilities we don't talk (Make Noise) we Choose to Show or Demonstrate as @nair has just hinted you MIRV and Multiple satellite launch system uses same technology. For your ease I am posting a link for 104 satellites launch video from a single PSLV a world record. Now deduce India's capabilities................
Now if you can provide a similar video for Pakistan's capabilities we will accept Pak has MIRVs otherwise don't rant..............

MIRV capabilities can be judged by the latest ISRO on board videos....;),
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shekhar Singh

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
2,032
882
France
No doubt, small warhead can help extend the maximum range of current arsenal. But then size of current missile diameter doesn't fully tells us the availability plus capability of having miniaturized warheads.
You're right.
It's why pure conical head of indian missile can embark MIRV with small warheads.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Kshithij Sharma

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,732
621
UK, Pakistan
Don't BLUFF about Pakistan having MIRV capabilities. We know where Pakistan's Nuclear capabilities stand. India is keeping a close very close watch on each & every nuke and missiles you posses, hence the Indian COAS remark we will call Pakistan's bluff off........ It is more a case of Empty Vessels Make More Noise.........

About India's MIRV capabilities we don't talk (Make Noise) we Choose to Show or Demonstrate as @nair has just hinted you MIRV and Multiple satellite launch system uses same technology. For your ease I am posting a link for 104 satellites launch video from a single PSLV a world record. Now deduce India's capabilities................
Now if you can provide a similar video for Pakistan's capabilities we will accept Pak has MIRVs otherwise don't rant..............
Funny.
If SLV and ballistic missiles are the same things, why every country including India have different organizations doing each?
Why ISRO doesn't make and fly Agni missiles and why is there a need of DRDO if both technologies are the same? In fact going by your assumptions Missiles are far inferior technology than Satellite launch rocketeering. So ISRO doing the superior thing , could easily have handled building inferior Agni series missiles and DRDO a separate institute wasn't needed?

About the video you posted,both North Korea and Iran launch satellites, have performed similar stunts of recording videos from their SLV and posted videos,yet none of them have MIRV.

About you not believing that Pakistan has MIRV and it's a bluff. Belief is not fact, it's a personal thing. You may believe what you want.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: bonobashi

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,732
621
UK, Pakistan
In 2010 BBC reported development of Pakistan's MIRV .
Link here.
Pakistan's growing nuclear programme.[/QUOTE]

The report just makes just a cursory mention of an MIRV programme . It doesn't cite any reference nor elaborates on it . Theres nothing in the nature of an expose here .Arguably , reportage of such programmes would always be speculative in nature .



I don't think any member here ever claimed India already has mastery over MIRV . Regardless , no Indian agency or the GoI has ever made such claims . As of now it's work in progress .



If Pakistan truly has" achieved MIRV technological capability ", it deserves fulsome praise and many congratulations though a logical mind would always question why aren't tests of such capabilities undertaken more frequently to refine or fine tune such abilities .
Unless ,as with most other technologies you've "mastered ," it has already achieved such a degree of sophistication , in your very first attempt , that nothing further need be done save to move on to the next level/challenge.

Having said that , I'm sure you'd agree it's all the more reason and impetus for the Indians to strive harder to achieve such goals now that Pakistan has "achieved a breakthrough in MIRV technology " just as our modest attempts at mastery in ABM technologies should spur identical endeavours in yours.
Well Ababeel a stopgap arrangement and will need major design changes.
For a start the additional weight and aerodynamic drag caused by MIRV bus is causing the missile to be slow in boost phase and prone to enemy ABM.
Ballistic missiles are most vulnerable while going up as still gaining speed and huge radar and IR signature.
The first stage is designed to be very fast,so that the missile can quickly get out of range of any enemy defense system.
Here's a side by side comparison of Shaheen-3 and Ababeel speeds

 
  • Like
Reactions: bonobashi

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
14,520
10,495
Mumbai
Well Ababeel a stopgap arrangement and will need major design changes.
For a start the additional weight and aerodynamic drag caused by MIRV bus is causing the missile to be slow in boost phase and prone to enemy ABM.
Ballistic missiles are most vulnerable while going up as still gaining speed and huge radar and IR signature.
The first stage is designed to be very fast,so that the missile can quickly get out of range of any enemy defense system.
Here's a side by side comparison of Shaheen-3 and Ababeel speeds



I'm venturing you won't be seeing the Ababeel at all . One fine day , you're going to see a brand new missile touted as a better version of the Ababeel and MIRV to boot . Of course , I've nothing to back up my statements except past happenings within the Pakistani security establishment to go by .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Notsuperstitious

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
14,520
10,495
Mumbai
Funny.
If SLV and ballistic missiles are the same things, why every country including India have different organizations doing each?
Why ISRO doesn't make and fly Agni missiles and why is there a need of DRDO if both technologies are the same? In fact going by your assumptions Missiles are far inferior technology than Satellite launch rocketeering. So ISRO doing the superior thing , could easily have handled building inferior Agni series missiles and DRDO a separate institute wasn't needed?

About the video you posted,both North Korea and Iran launch satellites, have performed similar stunts of recording videos from their SLV and posted videos,yet none of them have MIRV.

About you not believing that Pakistan has MIRV and it's a bluff. Belief is not fact, it's a personal thing. You may believe what you want.

I'd venture that the division between a missile R&D facility and that catering to civilian rocket programs isn't unique to India . Its prevalent all over the world including Pakistan . You don't see SUPARCO manufacturing the Shaheen or the Ababeel , do you !

Is it your contention that missile manufacturing facilities don't derive primary technological knowledge thru civilian rocket programs ? Are there no technical exchanges between these two arms of a nation - state ? They serve different purposes and a great degree of adaptation of such technologies by the military is common enough the world over.

Those stunts you're referring ( Iran & NoKo) to didn't extend to launching multiple satellites through a single launcher . For that matter what kind of satellites did they launch ? What were the payloads ? Were they meant for LEO or GEO ? These are questions you need to ask before posting what you did .

I'm of the firm belief that Pakistan has a handful of MIRV capable BM but like everything else it owes its existence not to the R&D conducted by your scientists but to China and NoKo. The question then to be answered is whether they're under the command and control of the PA or whether they lie under Chinese supervision .