ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

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That metal cutting was clearly mentioned as part of technology development ie a TD event, technology demonstration via metal cutting for the titanium bulkhead.
See, if we get used to nature of projects they handle, we would be able to differentiate between such stuff either via clear mention or by seeing abbreviation/project designation code etc.

But ultimately it was for AMCA. Some part has to be carved out 1st, so bulkhead being an importatnt central part was chosen.
Documentaries on manufacturing almost every jet is there on YT.
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1st they give excuses on CAD then manufacturing.
The BABUs will get their pension or lumpsum retirement amount but more & more techies are passing out of colleges every year. The industrial heirarchy is triangular everywhere. I hope our most populous nation won't run into mass unemployment & civil unrest. So these excuses won't work
 
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Do we really need AMCA?
When China is adding 100s of VLO fighters per year, why do you think we don't need one? Stealth fighters are your Day 1 "break the door" fighters. They're paramount in an offensive mission. You try the same mission with 4th gen jets and attrition would be high along with having more assets involved resulting in more cost per mission.
with advanced radar tech able to detect stealth fighters and cost of making and maintaining stealth.
The sheath does not make a sword redundant. Does it? We need both stealth(for offense) and anti-stealth(for defense). There is no question about it.
with just 1500/6500kg payload. will it be useful? just because other countries have/making does not mean we need the same.
1500kg IWB load is good enough for 4 BVRAAMs and few bombs. 6500kgs external payload is when high-risk missions are achieved. 6500kgs combat load for a stealth Air-Superiority Fighter is not bad at all.
 
But ultimately it was for AMCA. Some part has to be carved out 1st, so bulkhead being an importatnt central part was chosen.
Documentaries on manufacturing almost every jet is there on YT.
Its not entirely like that, rather its possibly like demonstrating that HAL got in house mfg capability to make those bulkheads. Even if you are building twin engine jets on license mfg basis, you still have to prove that you have capability to manufacture this item. There are possibly other tech related rules etc too, since all airworthy items need to follow guidelines of IMRTAR21 for all airworthy stores & items. Very specific rules, steps are chalked out that can not be averted. Since we can not tell from outside what exact was it, we are taking the TD part here as reason.
 
Its not entirely like that, rather its possibly like demonstrating that HAL got in house mfg capability to make those bulkheads. Even if you are building twin engine jets on license mfg basis, you still have to prove that you have capability to manufacture this item.

Ok, they carved out the bulkhead in stipulated time of few days, that's it? What's next? They stopped cutting anything else till now for 2.5 years or do we have a list of other cut parts????

There are possibly other tech related rules etc too, since all airworthy items need to follow guidelines of IMRTAR21 for all airworthy stores & items. Very specific rules, steps are chalked out that can not be averted. Since we can not tell from outside what exact was it, we are taking the TD part here as reason.

As i said earlier, all 100s of 1000s of techies in India in various domains know the project stages, SOPs, quality standards, etc. It's daily part of their office, nothing scary or exceptional.
 
Oper
When China is adding 100s of VLO fighters per year, why do you think we don't need one? Stealth fighters are your Day 1 "break the door" fighters. They're paramount in an offensive mission. You try the same mission with 4th gen jets and attrition would be high along with having more assets involved resulting in more cost per mission.
Operation Sindoor clearly demonstrated decoy drones effectiveness.

As I already mentioned, "just because other nations are making..." Every nation has different war strategy, we should not follow others.
and follow China??? we just saw where China stands

1500kg IWB load is good enough for 4 BVRAAMs and few bombs. 6500kgs external payload is when high-risk missions are achieved. 6500kgs combat load for a stealth Air-Superiority Fighter is not bad at all.
Why BVRAAMs? Stealth is door breaker right? so, it should be more of a go inside enemy territory execute and come back -> unharmed.

We can achieve this with Brahmos and other misiiles. Much cheaper and more effective.

We need to focus on our existing platform and make them better.
 
Oper

Operation Sindoor clearly demonstrated decoy drones effectiveness.
Along with the capability of Su-30MKI and Rafale.
As I already mentioned, "just because other nations are making..." Every nation has different war strategy, we should not follow others.
and follow China??? we just saw where China stands
We need to match our prime adversary in capability. Don't underestimate China or Pak or any of our enemies. Gotta keep one step ahead of them.
Why BVRAAMs? Stealth is door breaker right? so, it should be more of a go inside enemy territory execute and come back -> unharmed.
To take out enemy fighters that are doing BARCAP.
We can achieve this with Brahmos and other misiiles. Much cheaper and more effective.
It's a collective effort. There isn't a panacea, just different means to solve the same problem.
We need to focus on our existing platform and make them better.
We are doing that along with getting new capabilities. That's how it should be, IMO.
 
We have testbeds for avionics.
Yes, but AFAIK DRDO-CABS does not have any project for developing targeting pod, even older AMCA renders used to show litening pod externally mounted.

And CATSBird is not the normal avionics testing aircraft it has the complete system of F-35 integrated into it to flight test before going into it and costs $200 million for a new one.
Austin is also to present an acquisition strategy to procure “at least one new Cooperative Avionics Test Bed aircraft for the F-35 enterprise.” There is one such 737-based “CATbird” now, which is government owned/contractor-operated, used to test radars, avionics, and other equipment for the F-35.

The CATbird is an extensively modified, bespoke aircraft, bearing an F-35 nosecone and wing elements and extensive evaluation gear. The original aircraft took over a year to modify.

The HASC earmarked $200 million for the new CATbird, $350 million to create the digital twins, and $300 million for the SIL.

Digital Twin is another thing we should do, it will be costly as shown in quoted article above initially but gains will be tremendous in iterative development with digital twins.
Do the labs also plan the whole life cycle of platform in the digital twin or just simulators for training? Because the former is way more stuff planned into the design before even first flight even occurred, like seeing maintainability for ground crew, ease of manufacturing etc.

old LM videos showing the digital twin concept

I may be wrong, but I feel we might simulate few conditions for a design do WT tests and refine etc and fly real prototype I still have doubts we have the full digital twin, which can simulate the whole lot parameters for the lifecycle of a system for multiple designs and select the most optimum solution like US has shown with Nvidia Omniverse. Frankly it is too much compute resource to simulate all this without dedicated supercomputers for this.


 
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Yes, but AFAIK DRDO-CABS does not have any project for developing targeting pod, even older AMCA renders used to show litening pod externally mounted.

And CATSBird is not the normal avionics testing aircraft it has the complete system of F-35 integrated into it to flight test before going into it and costs $200 million for a new one.


Digital Twin is another thing we should do, it will be costly as shown in quoted article above initially but gains will be tremendous in iterative development with digital twins.
Bharat Shakti did a tour in the Baba Kalyani factory developing ATAGS and they had an entire facility where VR was used to see the complete blown up expanded view of ATAGS and its thousands of components.
 
Bharat Shakti did a tour in the Baba Kalyani factory developing ATAGS and they had an entire facility where VR was used to see the complete blown up expanded view of ATAGS and its thousands of components.
Digital Twin concept is much more than simulations or just VR/AR based designs. Though it has been used as buzzword like AI everywhere recently, which you can see by google search "digital twin"

Like how NASA makes a copy of its mars rover so it can test any issues in them like shown in Martian movie, now you have a digital copy of it and these both are connected and communicate. More real-time planning can be done.

This reddit post gave a good overview of digital twin model:
Buzzwords always go around. I remember "fuzzy logic" being this big thing back in the 1990's, for example.

Digital Twin, though, does have its place. For example, let us say you are going to make a new piece of machinery, including the software to program and control it....

  • The software developers will need something to test against. As a developer, you need to be able to answer, "did this change fix it?" without spending a week trying to reserve precious machine time on a prototype machine that might not be working. With the twin, it takes 20 seconds.
  • Once the hardware is built, and some goofy thing happens, the twin can help answer the vastly useful question of "is this in hardware or software? If the twin shows the issue, you know it's a software issue, and if the twin does not show the issue, you can pretty much know it's the machine - electrical or mechanical.
  • Next, when developing a machine, you need to know ahead of time if things are going to be wonky. A digital twin helps simulate the complex processes to create a definition of truth for how the machine should behave, and helps find issues before committing to building the actual machine. You can iterate quickly, and communicate such iterations easily to all parties of concern.
  • People doing training and documentation now have something to learn on, experiment on, and get graphics from. They can also use this for in-classroom training later on, to get folks used to the machine before they risk breaking the real thing.
  • Offline programmers can now test their tool paths on the digital twin before sending it to the shop floor. This helps prevent a lot of mistakes, and vastly increases their own knowledge on even how to make those paths, so the operator on the floor does not have to do a lot of rework, and even better, the machine can operate automatically with minimal operator intervention. This also enables much more complex tool paths to be more easily programmed, and even the ability to tweak the tool path from within the simulation itself, as in "this needs to move a bit to avoid that".
  • On the machine itself, a good twin can simulate complex tool paths prior to hitting the 'begin' button, potentially saving thousands of dollars on otherwise scrapped parts and broken tooling. We had machines, for example, where the thing about to be cut might be worth a half million dollars, and there was no room to mess that up.
  • Back in Tech Support, recordings from a real machine can be played back on the twin, so the support engineer can fully understand what the customer is talking about in the request, and a well designed twin system can have all sorts of playback capabilities synchronized to event logs and the like. Cameras on the machine can supplement this with real-world footage, and one can simply click on the camera in the twin to see that footage.
  • There is also the opportunity for digital twins to extend beyond all of the above for the future. For example, the 3D graphics rendering the twin can be used for AR and VR for much of the above, as well as more advanced things such as allowing the machine operator to have a heads up display that shows future tool motions in a preview, projected right on top of the machine in AR. Want to know if that path will collide with that fixture? Just look at the machine and see if the virtual path intersects with the real world object. Want to walk around a virtual machine in VR to program the path, or demonstrate it over the Internet to a potential client? Simple, just join the multiplayer "game" rendered in the same engine. Want to see what the spindle speed is, and how much the motor is under load? Just glance over at it, and have it show up in AR.
  • Now, let's say you want to have an overview of the status of all machines on your shop floor. Each one could have a digital twin, and each one could be connected via protocols such as MTConnect, and you can view all that status on a single screen, or a glance down to the shop floor in AR, or the machines can talk to a master scheduler and to each other to coordinate stuff like, "I'm starting to lose accuracy, let's move the low precision work over to me, and schedule the high precision stuff to a different machine", or "I am broken, re-nest those laser parts to fit into the work that waterjet is doing", or stuff like that.
So, I think there is real future for digital twins. Of course, it will be abused by marketing for all sorts of baloney, but those who do it right, and for the right applications, it will be game changing.
 
Yes, but AFAIK DRDO-CABS does not have any project for developing targeting pod, even older AMCA renders used to show litening pod externally mounted.

And CATSBird is not the normal avionics testing aircraft it has the complete system of F-35 integrated into it to flight test before going into it and costs $200 million for a new one.


Digital Twin is another thing we should do, it will be costly as shown in quoted article above initially but gains will be tremendous in iterative development with digital twins.

We don't need to duplicate America's testing system because we have so many ongoing programs that will feed into AMCA. We are doing better stuff than they are. For example, a lot of tech going into AMCA will come out of LCA Mk2.
 
Digital Twin concept is much more than simulations or just VR/AR based designs. Though it has been used as buzzword like AI everywhere recently, which you can see by google search "digital twin"

Like how NASA makes a copy of its mars rover so it can test any issues in them like shown in Martian movie, now you have a digital copy of it and these both are connected and communicate. More real-time planning can be done.

This reddit post gave a good overview of digital twin model:


NASA was very impressed by the work ISRO had done on their digital twin processes. It came as a surprise to them that what would take them 5 years and 3 rockets was being done by ISRO in just 18 months using 1 rocket.
 
We don't need to duplicate America's testing system because we have so many ongoing programs that will feed into AMCA. We are doing better stuff than they are. For example, a lot of tech going into AMCA will come out of LCA Mk2.

The only thing which is of concern is about the supplies of GE414 if it ever realizes. Do not have much alternatives.
 
Yes, but AFAIK DRDO-CABS does not have any project for developing targeting pod, even older AMCA renders used to show litening pod externally mounted.

And CATSBird is not the normal avionics testing aircraft it has the complete system of F-35 integrated into it to flight test before going into it and costs $200 million for a new one.


Digital Twin is another thing we should do, it will be costly as shown in quoted article above initially but gains will be tremendous in iterative development with digital twins.

DRDO has acquired an A319 few years back to serve as a Flying Test Bed called Anusandhan:

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We'll be using it in various configurations to test different systems that go into different programs:

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But this will take time because a lot of the subsystems that would go into AMCA are yet to be prototyped. Work on the DAS prototype had just begun last year IIRC (though we still don't know for sure if DAS will be implemented on AMCA Mk-1 or not) while AMCA's AESA (seen for the first time at this year's Aero India) is yet to be prototyped AFAIK.
 
Delhi: On Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, Chairman DRDO Dr Samir V Kamat says, "The execution model of AMCA has been approved. HAL can bid, the private sector can bid, they can also bid as a joint venture. This will open up participation of the private sector for fighter aircraft development. The development work will be completed by 2034 and then production should start from 2035. The first prototype will be ready to fly by the end of 2029."

 
The first prototype will be ready to fly by the end of 2029."
all hopes gone now
within a year their deadline changes so fast, i hope their work also goes this fast, first they said 2028 prototype rollout and if everything goes well then 2028 q4 first flight or at max q1 2029. now they are saying 2029 end, by this year end they will say 2030 then by 2029 they will say 2032
 
Delhi: On Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, Chairman DRDO Dr Samir V Kamat says, "The execution model of AMCA has been approved. HAL can bid, the private sector can bid, they can also bid as a joint venture. This will open up participation of the private sector for fighter aircraft development. The development work will be completed by 2034 and then production should start from 2035. The first prototype will be ready to fly by the end of 2029."

Every year, the timeline keeps skipping. Old school DRDO traditions have to continue.
 
I have a feeling not a single private sector company will bid for AMCA joint development and production. They had already shown reservations before. This drama will go on for 2 years until 2027 end, and then we will see news of HAL being sole bidder, and in 2028 they will be announced as the winner and then first flight in 2029 end or early 2030 lol. By then production of J36 and J50 would have begun already. I'm not gonna expect to see AMCA in service before 2037. Which means a full 11 year lead the PAF will have over us in air to air capability. What a completely pathetic state of affairs!