ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Rajput Lion]

Due to lack of proper dedicated engine technology , Marut program faced set back as it had speed issues, LCA program faced set back as it faced thrust and weight issues and now the country is on the same path of getting set back on AMCA as well, since no proper stealth engine is available.

Without any proper engine dedicated for stealth aircraft AMCA will be just another 4.5 gen aircraft. This is what engineering says.

We'll have our own 5th gen engine. That is now our govt's highest priority. And which 4.5 gen plane has IWB, btw? Even with GE-F414 AMCA MK1 will be a 5 minus gen fighter and blow any 4.5 or 4.75 gen fighter in a head on BVR shooting fight. All aspect stealth is required to intrude inside enemy A2/AD bubble and survive.

 

[screambowl]

We'll have our own 5th gen engine. That is now our govt's highest priority.

When it is operational then we can talk about it.

And which 4.5 gen plane has IWB,

B1 bomber which is a 4th gen strategic bomber has a forward IBW so does it become a 5th Gen strategic bomber?

blow any 4.5 or 4.75 gen fighter in a head on BVR shooting fight. All aspect stealth is required to intrude inside enemy A2/AD bubble and survive.

In current BVR scenario stealth will also be required inside your own air space.

 

[Asterion Moloc]

Some correction:

All the presses mentioned above including MIDHANI, L&SSHF, Bharat Forge are all hammer presses for Steel applications and cannot be used for stamping applications required for Metals like Aluminium, Titanium and Magnesium stamps commonly used in Aerospace.

For Aerospace, HAL has a 3000-tonne water hydraulic press with extrusion capability for Aerospace applications and this will probably be used to forge it at HAL after the die is received from Midhani.

HAL can probably accelerate this process by building a 50000 Ton or 60000 Ton press. There are very few of these in the world as their need is only for high precision aerospace components mainly large civil aircraft.

Few were built in the US as part of USAF's Heavy Press Program in the 1970's which are still used for all US applications including civil aircraft at Boeing

France has an USSR's (Ukranian) NKMZ built 75000 Ton press which is used by Airbus, Boeing etc. & other European companies. There's one in Ukraine and one in Russia (both 75000 Ton soviet era).

Japan and China each recently built theirs - circa 2013.

We haven't built one as there is no civilian aircraft manufacturing to make it viable but either HAL or MIDHANI or HINDALCO have to dip their hands in it now.

Based on American data, Each press of this size is expected to cost around USD 200 Million to USD 400 Million atleast which will have to come out of GoI capex. Won't be economically viable without govt funding as there is very little commercial need since we don't have a civil aircraft program. Even for Civil applications most of these forges were never economically viable to build and operate and were always govt funded. F-35 project had to pay USD 100 Million just to repair one of the presses at Alcoa.

Maybe we too should buy this in the mean time as turkey did:

Sciaky, Inc. to Deliver World’s Largest Metal Electron Beam DED 3D Printer, a Customized EBAM® 300 Series Additive Manufacturing System, to Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)​

The high-deposition EBAM machine will 3D print titanium aerostructures 6 meters (nearly 20 feet) in length​

CHICAGO, IL | January 25, 2022

Sciaky, Inc., a subsidiary of Phillips Service Industries, Inc. (PSI) and leading supplier of industrial metal 3D printing solutions, announced today that it will deliver the world’s largest electron beam directed energy deposition (DED) 3D printer, a customized 300 Series Electron Beam Additive Manufacturing (EBAM®) System, to Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). The contract between TAI and Sciaky also includes collaboration on a series of projects aimed at optimizing TAI’s use of the EBAM machine and its technology.

The EBAM machine is going to TAI’s Ankara, Turkey plant, where it will 3D print some of the largest titanium aerostructures in the industry. The machine’s work envelope stretches beyond 6 meters in length by 2 meters in width by 1.8 meters in height. Deposition rates will exceed 20 lbs of metal per hour for many metal alloys. On top of the impressive technical specifications, this unique 3D printer can quickly switch over to an Electron Beam Welder (EBW) for large-scale welding applications. TAI will also have the advantage of combining EB welding and 3D printing functionality for applications that require both technologies.

Launched under the Ministry of Industry and Technology in 1973 to reduce Turkey’s foreign dependence in the defense industry, Turkish Aerospace has embraced innovation for nearly five decades. Beginning with the decision to use F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force in 1984, Turkish Aerospace formed TAI, a Turkish-U.S. joint investment company, to carry out the manufacturing of F-16 aircraft, including the integration of on-board systems and flight tests. In 2005, Turkish Aerospace restructured to expand its overall capabilities, becoming Turkey's technology center for the development, modernization, manufacturing, system integration and lifecycle support of its aviation and space programs.

“Sciaky’s EBAM systems are the most widely sold, large-scale DED metal 3D printers in the world, having approved parts on land, sea, air, and space applications,” said Scott Phillips, President of Sciaky, Inc. “We applaud TAI’s vision for innovation and their ambitious plans to 3D print some of the largest titanium aerostructures in the world.”

As the most widely scalable metal additive manufacturing solution in the industry (in terms of work envelope), Sciaky’s EBAM systems can produce parts ranging from 8 inches (203 mm) to 20 feet (> 6 meters) in length. EBAM is also the fastest deposition process in the metal additive manufacturing market, with gross deposition rates ranging from seven to 25 lbs. (3.18 to 11.34 kg) of metal per hour. EBAM brings quality and control together with IRISS® – the Interlayer Real-time Imaging and Sensing System, which is the only real-time adaptive control system in the metal 3D printing market that can sense and digitally self-adjust metal deposition with precision and repeatability. This innovative closed-loop control is the primary reason that Sciaky’s EBAM 3D printing process delivers consistent part geometry, mechanical properties, microstructure, and metal chemistry, from the first part to the last.

Sciaky Delivering World's Largest Metal DED 3D Printer to Turkish Aerospace Industries | Sciaky

But GOI should invest in some thing similar, it will be required for long term usage:

Cold War History Declassified

 

[Rajput Lion]

When it is operational then we can talk about it.

Talking about future defence programmes is one of the major reasons behind our forum and others.

B1 bomber which is a 4th gen strategic bomber has a forward IBW so does it become a 5th Gen strategic bomber?

I said fighter, not bomber!

In current BVR scenario stealth will also be required inside your own air space.

In a head on BVR fight, no! Because once you lock and shoot first, modern ESM is intelligent enough to geo-locate you accurately and then you're no longer hidden. Stealth gives you first look and shoot advantage and that's about it.

Rear aspect stealth is required to operate inside enemy A2/AD bubble where you may need to take out an enemy target and after shooting need to turn and run. If you don't have rear aspect stealth then hostile SAMs are going to hunt you down.

 

[screambowl]

In a head on BVR fight, no! Because once you lock and shoot first, modern ESM is intelligent enough to geo-locate you accurately and then you're no longer hidden. Stealth gives you first look and shoot advantage and that's about it.

In today's BVR scenario it is very much possible that the target is locked by one aircraft and the weapon is fired from other simultaneously in the first instance, thus confusing the bandits where to lock.

And Geo location is not for long. It may find you once and then lose again.

Rear aspect stealth is required to operate inside enemy A2/AD bubble where you may need to take out an enemy target and after shooting need to turn and run. If you don't have rear aspect stealth then hostile SAMs are going to hunt you down.

I fully agree rear aspect of stealth is required withotu any doubt and SAM today has longer ranges, more over in Kargil type scenario you need to maintain stealth even inside your territory. That's was my point.

 

[Hydra]

Talking about future defence programmes is one of the major reasons behind our forum and others.

I said fighter, not bomber!

In a head on BVR fight, no! Because once you lock and shoot first, modern ESM is intelligent enough to geo-locate you accurately and then you're no longer hidden. Stealth gives you first look and shoot advantage and that's about it.

Rear aspect stealth is required to operate inside enemy A2/AD bubble where you may need to take out an enemy target and after shooting need to turn and run. If you don't have rear aspect stealth then hostile SAMs are going to hunt you down.

Last time oir sukkhoi didn't dare to approach advancing formation of PAF fighters due to the missile fired up on MKI. MKI was well with in our airspace.
Before that PAF f16 break apart to safety due to missile lock from mig 29 during kargil war. Yeas, F16 was over indian airspace but that region was under the control of Pakistan since 1948.


AMCA is nothing but a wet dream by ADA to cripple our military capabilities.

 

[Ashwin]

Maybe we too should buy this in the mean time as turkey did:

Sciaky Delivering World's Largest Metal DED 3D Printer to Turkish Aerospace Industries | Sciaky

But GOI should invest in some thing similar, it will be required for long term usage:

Cold War History Declassified

We don't even have a proper wind tunnel facility. ADA has to book an appointment in France a year in advance. The lack of test facilities is the reason for delays during development.

 

[marich01]

@Rajput Lion

Anything to do with amca like airborne system? or something else?

 

[Rajput Lion]

@Rajput Lion

Anything to do with amca like airborne system? or something else?

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Yes, it is for DAS(Distributed Aperture System) which we're specifically developing for AMCA.

 

[marich01]

Yes, it is for DAS(Distributed Aperture System) which we're specifically developing for AMCA.

They mention LCA mk2 and amca together for a lot of systems in tenders, ie those systems will be common for the two jets.

There is also some FSS nosecone radome composite made, could be non amca though, and a prototype rather than a product that goes on the actual platform.

 

[Rajput Lion]

They mention LCA mk2 and amca together for a lot of systems in tenders, ie those systems will be common for the two jets.

There is also some FSS nosecone radome composite made, could be non amca though, and a prototype rather than a product that goes on the actual platform.

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A lot of tech is going to be shared among AMCA, LCA MK2, TEDBF & MKI UPG. DAS maybe only for AMCA MK2 but FSS radome would be for all aforementioned fighters as it is vital for frontal low RCS since it allows only select frequencies to pass through and rest reflects it in outer direction(s). Even MKI UPG. is supposed to get FSS radome to reduce its frontal radar signature.

 

[Bagheera84]

On many forums I have seen civilians discuss military stuff. I wonder how civilians get such deep technical knowledge of military technology.

 

[randomradio]

This is the result of computer run simulation of F-35 in different EM frequencies:

View attachment 32413

Source of the above image: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-function-of-the-viewing-angle_fig6_259503614

Now why did I post it here? Well because as per @randomradio, AMCA MK1 won't be stealth from rear aspect. However, if we look at this RCS simulation on this is very clear is that F-35 isn't that stealthy from side aspect as it is from front/rear even in X-Band. I think all aspect broadband stealth is ONLY going to be available in the 6th gen platforms.

5th gen pilots need to maintain proper angles towards hostile emitters to show their best aspect in terms of RCS to hide. It literally is the game of cat and mouse.

@randomradio, @Parthu, @vstol Jockey, @Ashwin your opinion on the above!

It's propaganda material against the F-35. It's fake. Later it turned out the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22 from all sides. Even the rear, but not so sure about IR stealth.

But yes, the pilot, in fact the aircraft itself, points its best profile towards a radar. Although due to the proliferation of radars all over the battlespace, that's become difficult.

 

[randomradio]

Active cancellation is not a magic wand. What if enemy is employing ultra-low side lobe method of LPI. How would you know in which direction you need to do active cancellation. In which direction a jet is sitting silently employing such methods of LPI, btw which exist in Uttam and Netra both.

Then you be active cancelling the incoming frequency in 360 degrees? The power requirement going to be insane for such.

And if you know IAF war tactics, they are moving toward total silent OPs through fighters, and getting Air Situation Picture through AEW&C and employing LPI where one jet be trasnmitting and other be listening silently (in case C/L-band datalinks are jammed).

Otherwise why asking for LPI in Tejas Mk1A, and why developing ultra low side lobe antenna in Uttam radar series.

View attachment 32414

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA246315.pdf

And btw, if frenchies are doing active cancellation, then be assured americans are doing it,, and we be doing it with incoming jammers, especially in MKI.

As per Air Chief Dhanoa, he doesn't consider aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 stealth. Only aircraft like the B-2 qualifies.

So there's value in trying to understand how all these technologies fit into the kill chain.

Active cancelation targets a different part of the kill chain compared to passive stealth. And future jets need a combination of passive stealth and active measures, of which active cancelation is just one such measure.

And the IAF plans to combine "real" stealth aircraft like the IUSAV with marginally effective aircraft like the Rafale and later AMCA to get their next gen capabilities, whereas the Americans, Europeans and Chinese are aiming for more advanced airframes than AMCA/F-35/F-22 etc, due to their lack of sufficient stealth and deeper pockets. Being technologically ahead is also a factor.

 

[randomradio]

AMCA, KAAN and KF-21 will all have stealth similar to F-35.

KF-21 will not. Block 1 is Typhoon class. Block 2 is F-117 class. Block 3, if it's pursued, is aimed to be in the F-35++ class, but it will need a new engine.

They refer to Block 2 as LO, not VLO, and they have also said it won't be anywhere near the F-35.

WDS: Korean pursue Saudi interest in joint KF-21 programme | Times Aerospace

A South Korean delegation made an unannounced visit to Saudi Arabia on 23-26 January, meeting with Dr Khalid bin Hussein Al-Biyari, Saudi Arabia’s deputy defence minister, and other officials. The two sides reportedly discussed the joint development of an advanced fighter based on the design of...

www.timesaerospace.aero

As a first step, KAI will produce a two-seat KF-21 variant with manned/unmanned teaming (MUM-T) capabilities and, under current plans, will upgrade the Block 2 KF-21 to an LO configuration, which would make it a fifth-generation fighter.

KAI has also proposed developing a Block 3 KF-21l, which it classes as a sixth-generation fighter. This aircraft would be larger, more stealthy and more capable, with more powerful engines, and operating as part of a ‘system of systems’ with unmanned effectors and adjuncts, building on the MUM-T effort.

I suppose its development will be determined by the export market. But B3 is basically their AMCA-equivalent.

 

[randomradio]

@Rajput Lion

Anything to do with amca like airborne system? or something else?

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It's a TD to validate the processor and software. DAS can be use anywhere, including future vehicle and tank programs, not just aircraft.

 

[Hydra]

On many forums I have seen civilians discuss military stuff. I wonder how civilians get such deep technical knowledge of military technology.

Just wasting ( including my self )time on publicly available info. I am sure most of the things we discussing are far from real specs.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's propaganda material against the F-35. It's fake. Later it turned out the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22 from all sides. Even the rear, but not so sure about IR stealth.

It's not fake but a computer run simulation of F-35 from all aspects in different radar bands. Of course it's not perfect cause they can't take the real RAM/RAS of F-35 in account. But still it gives us a rough idea of from which aspects and at what RF band F-35 achieves its best stealth.

Even with canted V-tail, planes like F-22 & F-35 aren't all aspect VLO as that simulation showed. They maintain their best stealth profile from front and rear.

But yes, the pilot, in fact the aircraft itself, points its best profile towards a radar. Although due to the proliferation of radars all over the battlespace, that's become difficult.

That's why most 6th gen planes are going to be devoid of any tail to achieve super stealth from all-aspects and against all RF bands.

But planes like AMCA MK1, F-22 and F-35 still would be good enough to shoot first in a head-on BVR fight against planes like Rafale or any other 4+ gen.

 

[randomradio]

It's not fake but a computer run simulation of F-35 from all aspects in different radar bands. Of course it's not perfect cause they can't take the real RAM/RAS of F-35 in account. But still it gives us a rough idea of from which aspects and at what RF band F-35 achieves its best stealth.

Even with canted V-tail, planes like F-22 & F-35 aren't all aspect VLO as that simulation showed. They maintain their best stealth profile from front and rear.

These computer simulations are all fake. You need a 1:1 scale model built to the exact specifications to measure RCS.

Yeah, you need to lose the tails and fins for lower RCS, but that red color just gives the wrong impression. It's designed to trick the gullible.

But planes like AMCA MK1, F-22 and F-35 still would be good enough to shoot first in a head-on BVR fight against planes like Rafale or any other 4+ gen.

Today, yes. But we can't say if it will stay the same tomorrow. The other jets need to deploy active measures too. With passive measures only, a multistatic IADS will defeat such stealth.

And AMCA with F414 is not stealth. There is no such thing as head-on when you are maneuvering.

 

[Bagheera84]

Just wasting ( including my self )time on publicly available info. I am sure most of the things we discussing are far from real specs.

Even to chat and comprehend about publicly available info, it takes professional / occupational knowledge and experience. How do laymen, having no links whatsoever to military, do it? I, as an ordinary civilian, don't understand a single sentence (not even half) of military threads. And where is this public information available? Is it internet? Is it some magazine? Or is it some thick book?