2021 Tokyo Olympics

BMD

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We're up to fourth behind US, China and Russia.


Also noticed that if you added UK, Australia, Canada and NZ it would be winning by 30 medals despite having less than half the population of the US combined!
 
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BMD

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what about gymnastic, shooting or diving , do you need to be composed of U232 ?
For gymnastics you pretty much do and for Olympic weightlifting you need to be composed of depleted Uranium with a Pu239 power source.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Not having followed much of international or domestic hockey over quite a few years I was shocked to note that Paxtan didn't even qualify for this Olympics. Both the sub continental teams, Titans of International Hockey once upon a time are has beens today. More true of Paxtan as compared to India. Any diagnosis of this malaise? Genuine question . @safriz
 

BMD

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Physique is not just what you are born with but also what you built. That requires training and conditioning.
True but if someone has better genes and trains fulltime they will beat you every time. I'm fairly sure I could have trained since childhood as hard as is beneficial and never been faster than Usain Bolt, same is true for 99.999999999% of people.
 

Saaho

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True but if someone has better genes and trains fulltime they will beat you every time. I'm fairly sure I could have trained since childhood as hard as is beneficial and never been faster than Usain Bolt, same is true for 99.999999999% of people.
Its much more complicated than that. You see, most of the time you are looking it after the fact. Your are looking it once Usain Bolt has become the champion. In this rear-view mirror, you are explaining why is Usain Bolt so great at sprinting. And you find some of the genetic influences in it. May be he has much much higher number of fast twitching fibres to give him that explosive acceleration. Trouble is, this can only explain on individual's great performance. Another individual having a different advatange or a mix of advatanges may be able to out do this guy. Say a guy with lower number of fast twitching muscle cells but massive advantage in handling anerobic biproducts that hamper recovery (like lactic acid). So, he can train way more than past guy and optimize his running better. He simply does not feel impact of execise on his muscle like the other guy. So ultimately who has "better genes" or even what are "better genes". The answer is more complicated. It may just be possible to train a guy with different regimes to obtain very similar or better results if you know about their genetics and other properties better. Put it simply, there may just be different ways to skin this cat. There may be more than one winning combination. There may more than one combinations of training regimes and phyisiological features which can produce a world champion. It may in the end come to who got the right combination (not necessarily right genetics, there may be more than one sets of genetic traits equally good in different training regimes).

I remember reading about Micheal Phelp who actually has a peculiar double jointed bones that go an extra 15 degree IIRC (that may not necessarily a result of genetics or even heritable) which helps them achieve excellence in swimming which makes his feets behave almost like flippers.

Your gifts may come from more than one source.
 
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jetray

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True but if someone has better genes and trains fulltime they will beat you every time. I'm fairly sure I could have trained since childhood as hard as is beneficial and never been faster than Usain Bolt, same is true for 99.999999999% of people.
Well I dont expect Indians to beat usain bolt by a second or three, but bloody hell they should at least should qualify and be comparable to world standards. Most of the sports they are at the bottom 30% ,more often are tourists rather than sportsperson. At this rate soon Indians might well be classified as alien species that looks like humans but are not one of them.

Having better genes certainly gives an advantage but thats only one part of the story. Rest is training, consistency , persistence, selection ...etc.
Chinese were in similar state decades back but they have done remarkably well now while Indians keep honing their excusing genes to fullest possible extent..
 

Saaho

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Well I dont expect Indians to beat usain bolt by a second or three, but bloody hell they should at least should qualify and be comparable to world standards. Most of the sports they are at the bottom 30% ,more often are tourists rather than sportsperson. At this rate soon Indians might well be classified as alien species that looks like humans but are not one of them.

Having better genes certainly gives an advantage but thats only one part of the story. Rest is training, consistency , persistence, selection ...etc.
Chinese were in similar state decades back but they have done remarkably well now while Indians keep honing their excusing genes to fullest possible extent..
As much as ego boost an olympic medal brings us, it is not as important in grander scheme of things for a nation. There are bigger existantial issues we have to face.

That being said, as a society we should promote those who seek participation in sports and reward them by giving them a more rational access to higher education, employment, subsidised training facilities and pension if they meet certain bar.
Well I dont expect Indians to beat usain bolt by a second or three
You never know.
 

jetray

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As much as ego boost an olympic medal brings us, it is not as important in grander scheme of things for a nation. There are bigger existantial issues we have to face.

That being said, as a society we should promote those who seek participation in sports and reward them by giving them a more rational access to higher education, employment, subsidised training facilities and pension if they meet certain bar.
True, but it is not just abt gold, it is much more than that. It shows what we are and how we do things. It shows our ability to collaborate, improve, innovate and compete against others. It is not just sports its the way we do things, that attitude and culture reflects in other things as well like running a company , government or any institution.

When we say developed countries win medals its not just sports that wins but the entire institution, culture, country. Even small countries are able to win medals , it shows they are better at organizing and utilizing resources better than us not just sports in other things as well. We are highly inefficient and totally dishonest abt ourselves that we rarely introspect but keep maintaining the status quo.

You never know.
yeah we never will thats sure, but humans do superhuman stuff which might either be crazy or become norm. But what becomes norm and what stays as crazy once in a blue moon is upto how things are perceived by the system.


our body is not just genes, its more than that some thing called mind over matter.
 
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BMD

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Its much more complicated than that. You see, most of the time you are looking it after the fact. Your are looking it once Usain Bolt has become the champion. In this rear-view mirror, you are explaining why is Usain Bolt so great at sprinting. And you find some of the genetic influences in it. May be he has much much higher number of fast twitching fibres to give him that explosive acceleration. Trouble is, this can only explain on individual's great performance. Another individual having a different advatange or a mix of advatanges may be able to out do this guy. Say a guy with lower number of fast twitching muscle cells but massive advantage in handling anerobic biproducts that hamper recovery (like lactic acid). So, he can train way more than past guy and optimize his running better. He simply does not feel impact of execise on his muscle like the other guy. So ultimately who has "better genes" or even what are "better genes". The answer is more complicated. It may just be possible to train a guy with different regimes to obtain very similar or better results if you know about their genetics and other properties better. Put it simply, there may just be different ways to skin this cat. There may be more than one winning combination. There may more than one combinations of training regimes and phyisiological features which can produce a world champion. It may in the end come to who got the right combination (not necessarily right genetics, there may be more than one sets of genetic traits equally good in different training regimes).

I remember reading about Micheal Phelp who actually has a peculiar double jointed bones that go an extra 15 degree IIRC (that may not necessarily a result of genetics or even heritable) which helps them achieve excellence in swimming which makes his feets behave almost like flippers.

Your gifts may come from more than one source.
But even in your contrived example the second guy still has that genetically, so it's back to genes again. There are certain skill sports you can do without perfect genes though, like racquet sports, football, archery, horse riding etc.

Joints that go an extra 15deg sound a lot like genes to me.
Well I dont expect Indians to beat usain bolt by a second or three, but bloody hell they should at least should qualify and be comparable to world standards. Most of the sports they are at the bottom 30% ,more often are tourists rather than sportsperson. At this rate soon Indians might well be classified as alien species that looks like humans but are not one of them.

Having better genes certainly gives an advantage but thats only one part of the story. Rest is training, consistency , persistence, selection ...etc.
Chinese were in similar state decades back but they have done remarkably well now while Indians keep honing their excusing genes to fullest possible extent..
Well true, you have no excuse for not having any sprinter.

Sure, you won't become an Olympic champion without effort too. That's not what I'm saying. You need both.
 

Saaho

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Joints that go an extra 15deg sound a lot like genes to me.
No, not necessarily. It is only genetic if it is heritable or due to genes. Many times, physiological changes are due to factors outside genetics. A person doing certain exercises during early childhood when bones and sinews are more flexible and more amanable to change can achieve higher degree of freedom in joints. Sometimes, "happy accidents" before or after birth can cause it.

My son was born due to forcep assisted delivery. It caused a certain indentation on his temples and there was a chance he may have hearing issues. Thankfully it did not materialize. What else happened was that his vision is slightly peculiar allowing him a bit wider field of view with slight astigmatism. Doctors think astigmatism will autocorrect with time. His peculiarity is not heritable ofcourse. He can literally see me from sides without even turning his head. Its creepy, almost like an x-ray vision. Upshot is there are more than one ways in which body may be modified to provide an advantage or disadvantage in certain situations.

Olympians are freaks to be honest. One way or other. Genetic or physiological or otherwise.


There are certain skill sports you can do without perfect genes though, like racquet sports, football, archery, horse riding etc.
Actually muscles and joints are not the only genetic gift, visual processing is also one. I do not have at hand but I read that certain people or group of people have better ability to detect motion due to the way their visual cortex is wired. But even that said, the intra group difference may be large enough to compensate for general genetic advantage possessed by a different group.
 
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Saaho

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But even in your contrived example the second guy still has that genetically, so it's back to genes again. There are certain skill sports you can do without perfect genes though, like racquet sports, football, archery, horse riding etc.
Even when it is back to genes, who has "better genes"? The one who has a large number of fast twitching muscle fibres? The one who has very low impact of lactic acid? One whose body can get rid of lactic acid too fast to even register? Or one who has a combination of parts of these?

The one who has fast twitching fibres just need to learn to use them well.

The one with low impact of lactic acid will be able train more and harder and will be able to better condition his cardio-vascular system and neural control to get faster.

The one with a combination will use a combination of above.

It may not be clear as to what exactly will be "better genes". Humans have a lot of diversity of genes for good reason and nature achieves similar goals by various pathways. It may be possible that by adjusting training regime, very similar results may be achieved.

Note : it does not mean that EVERYONE can become a olympic champion. It just means that there may be more than one type of advantages that can make a champion by selecting right kind of training.

It circle backs to the same point that I made, trainings and different types of trainings can be the key to making a champion even with different genetic profiles.
 

BMD

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No, not necessarily. It is only genetic if it is heritable or due to genes. Many times, physiological changes are due to factors outside genetics. A person doing certain exercises during early childhood when bones and sinews are more flexible and more amanable to change can achieve higher degree of freedom in joints. Sometimes, "happy accidents" before or after birth can cause it.

My son was born due to forcep assisted delivery. It caused a certain indentation on his temples and there was a chance he may have hearing issues. Thankfully it did not materialize. What else happened was that his vision is slightly peculiar allowing him a bit wider field of view with slight astigmatism. Doctors think astigmatism will autocorrect with time. His peculiarity is not heritable ofcourse. He can literally see me from sides without even turning his head. Its creepy, almost like an x-ray vision. Upshot is there are more than one ways in which body may be modified to provide an advantage or disadvantage in certain situations.

Olympians are freaks to be honest. One way or other. Genetic or physiological or otherwise.



Actually muscles and joints are not the only genetic gift, visual processing is also one. I do not have at hand but I read that certain people or group of people have better ability to detect motion due to the way their visual cortex is wired. But even that said, the intra group difference may be large enough to compensate for general genetic advantage possessed by a different group.
Being double-jointed is genetic. You can improve flexibility with exercises though.

To an extent but I feel most healthy people can become very good a racquet and ball sports with practice. Being able to run a 9s 100m though is a different matter - Christophe Lamaitre is the only white person to have ran under 10s to date.
 

BMD

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Even when it is back to genes, who has "better genes"? The one who has a large number of fast twitching muscle fibres? The one who has very low impact of lactic acid? One whose body can get rid of lactic acid too fast to even register? Or one who has a combination of parts of these?

The one who has fast twitching fibres just need to learn to use them well.

The one with low impact of lactic acid will be able train more and harder and will be able to better condition his cardio-vascular system and neural control to get faster.

The one with a combination will use a combination of above.

It may not be clear as to what exactly will be "better genes". Humans have a lot of diversity of genes for good reason and nature achieves similar goals by various pathways. It may be possible that by adjusting training regime, very similar results may be achieved.

Note : it does not mean that EVERYONE can become a olympic champion. It just means that there may be more than one type of advantages that can make a champion by selecting right kind of training.

It circle backs to the same point that I made, trainings and different types of trainings can be the key to making a champion even with different genetic profiles.
Usually Olympians have both. Most people simply couldn't endure the level of training they do without their body breaking in some way, even if their will was solid. That part is genetic too.

If you look at an Olympic weightlifter, notice not only how strong they are, but how their ar5e almost touches their ankles during a clean. Most people aren't that flexible, and for most people who are that flexible there is no way of making them that strong, or that fast/powerful. And a year of them trying would probably leave them needing knee joint replacement surgery.

It's fairly simple really, go back to high school. We all played football, we all did PE, we all did roughly the same, but some kid would always be faster. They take that kid from every school and compete them against each other and then the best handful in the country are deemed to be worth investing the training effort into. There's no point picking the kid who takes 20s to do the 100m. Even $10tr worth of training will not make them the next Usain Bolt.