The Vedic World

[Guynextdoor]

While I have read multiple books on Vedic history before, I recently picked up a book called
'Discovering the Vedas' by Frits Staal. There are several important things to note about this book:

- It was completed recently, in 2007 so it is contemporary and brings out the most recent reserach and findings around Vedic history
- It is written by a great scholar with over 40 years of reserach in this area. He lived in India, learnt sanskrit and then went on to build his scholarship at Berkeley, MIT and so on
- No BS look at core research

I have not finished reading the book but want to open a thread where I can start noting all the important discoveries/ conjectures so that I don't forget any of them. @vstol Jockey @Levina this stuff might be of interest to you

Notable:

a) The river Sarswati is most probably river Helmand in Afghanistan
b) Indus Valley Script is probably not a 'script' (this is author analysis) Probably icon/seal of families and officials
c) Aryan invasion theory almost certainly debunked - genetic contribution from non Indic people is insignificant
d) What has happened - specifically in the case of use of horses- is the transference of ideas over the mountains rather than the influx of people as such
e) Right now I'm reading through sections where the 'Soma' is being discussed. The mountain where 'Soma' is supposed to exist is actually the Pamir mountains. I'm hoping to he reveals what plant 'Soma' actually in in coming pages.

 

[_Anonymous_]

 

[Guynextdoor]

Are you saying the Aryan invasion is valid using Genetics or invalid?

 

[_Anonymous_]

Are you saying the Aryan invasion is valid using Genetics or invalid?

I'm saying the last word on usage of genetics is still way away. It's too new a technology, the sample size is unknown / too small and I've been around long enough to harbour suspicions about any discipline claiming to have the answer to everything.

I've swung between AIT in school / colleges, to OIT to finally AMT ( including AIT & OIT) for I believe no one theory can explain this phenomena nor can we put our finger and say this was an one time phenomenon. Just as ideas travelled back and forth so did people in the vast panoply of lands stretching from what is now Kazakhstan right down to Central India with everything in between in one geographic whole.

The split as we understand it came about with the birth of Zoroastrianism and the separation of Vedic Indians from Avestan Iranians around 1500-2000 BCE. Of course this is a hypothesis and has a lot of loose ends to be tied.

 

[S. A. T. A]

While I have read multiple books on Vedic history before, I recently picked up a book called
'Discovering the Vedas' by Frits Staal. There are several important things to note about this book:

- It was completed recently, in 2007 so it is contemporary and brings out the most recent reserach and findings around Vedic history
- It is written by a great scholar with over 40 years of reserach in this area. He lived in India, learnt sanskrit and then went on to build his scholarship at Berkeley, MIT and so on
- No BS look at core research

I have not finished reading the book but want to open a thread where I can start noting all the important discoveries/ conjectures so that I don't forget any of them. @vstol Jockey @Levina this stuff might be of interest to you

Notable:

a) The river Sarswati is most probably river Helmand in Afghanistan
b) Indus Valley Script is probably not a 'script' (this is author analysis) Probably icon/seal of families and officials
c) Aryan invasion theory almost certainly debunked - genetic contribution from non Indic people is insignificant
d) What has happened - specifically in the case of use of horses- is the transference of ideas over the mountains rather than the influx of people as such
e) Right now I'm reading through sections where the 'Soma' is being discussed. The mountain where 'Soma' is supposed to exist is actually the Pamir mountains. I'm hoping to he reveals what plant 'Soma' actually in in coming pages.

Professor Staal was an amazing scholar, sadly he passed away few years back, but the wealth of literature that he has left on Indian linguistics and vedic liturgy will stand students of indology in good stead. Professor Staal was instrumental in reviving the brahmana ritual (more than 3000 years old )of Agnicayana or Athiratram, which was performed in the village called Panjal in 1975 after a lapse of couple of centuries.

The whole question about the Indo-Aryans is vexing and politics surrounding it makes it even more explosive. What was a mere academic exercise has been so throughly hijacked that today there more non specialist, like retd bureaucrats, doctors, physicists, etc writing papers on the subject than the traditional scholars. These days you can't have an informed academic opinion on the subject of the Indo-Aryans, without having to state your position as pro-AIT/AMT or Anti - AIT/AMT. it's a sad state of affairs..

While I'm yet to read this book, so won't pass any judgment on ideas that professor Staal putsforth, but would like add a couple of points.

a) place name and river name do tend to be preserved for the longest time and it has been argued that the presence of river names like Harahvati and Haroyu in Iranian Avestan text, corresponding to Vedic Sarswati and 'Sarayu', was evidence that migrating Indo-Aryans carried the old Iranian river names to the new rivers that they encountered in India. However the problem with this hypothesis, as per another school of linguists, is that, after the Indo-Aryan split from old Avestan, the rule of phoneme change were well established. As per this, Indo-Aryan phoneme 's' becomes 'h' in Avestan (hence 'sapta Sindhu' becomes 'Hapta hendu') but there is no instance of it becoming vice versa. By this they suggest that the Indo-Aryan 'Saraswati' became 'harahwati' after it entered old Avestan.

b) That the Indus valley seals contained symbols and not alphabets representing a spoken language, like modern linguistic systems, has been pitched by prof Witzel and Steve farmer. In their paper called 'collapse of the Indus script thesis' they have argued that IVC seals did not not represent a script and that IVC was not a literate society. However researchers at TIFR who conducted a computational analysis of the Indus signs and compared them to similar analysis of known linguistic scripts, concluded that the entropy (randomness) of the Indus sign system was more in line with other known linguistic systems than non linguistic systems. Well the verdict is still out on the whether the Indus signs represent a script or not.

 

[vsdoc]

I'm saying the last word on usage of genetics is still way away. It's too new a technology, the sample size is unknown / too small and I've been around long enough to harbour suspicions about any discipline claiming to have the answer to everything.

I've swung between AIT in school / colleges, to OIT to finally AMT ( including AIT & OIT) for I believe no one theory can explain this phenomena nor can we put our finger and say this was an one time phenomenon. Just as ideas travelled back and forth so did people in the vast panoply of lands stretching from what is now Kazakhstan right down to Central India with everything in between in one geographic whole.

The split as we understand it came about with the birth of Zoroastrianism and the separation of Vedic Indians from Avestan Iranians around 1500-2000 BCE. Of course this is a hypothesis and has a lot of loose ends to be tied.

The split happened long before the birth of Zarathustra (the birth of Zoroastrianism you refer to).

Zoroastrianism is not a new religion. It was a seamless evolutionary continuum of older Mithraism, Manaechenism and Babakism (a lateral theological branch offshoot coming back and coalescing once more).

In essence, it's the last word. Not the first. And the split happened a lot earlier.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Guynextdoor]

The split happened long before the birth of Zarathustra (the birth of Zoroastrianism you refer to).

Zoroastrianism is not a new religion. It was a seamless evolutionary continuum of older Mithraism, Manaechenism and Babakism (a lateral theological branch offshoot coming back and coalescing once more).

In essence, it's the last word. Not the first. And the split happened a lot earlier.

Cheers, Doc

You should read the book. The (what is today) iranian/ persian areas and their impact on the Vedic narratives are considered all important. Especially the analysis of the 'Soma' references' in the Pamir mountains. You will enjoy it. (I'm still reading through the book)

 

[vsdoc]

You should read the book. The (what is today) iranian/ persian areas and their impact on the Vedic narratives are considered all important. Especially the analysis of the 'Soma' references' in the Pamir mountains. You will enjoy it. (I'm still reading through the book)

Yup. Haoma for us.

The entire samudra manthan thing.

Near mirror image.

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

Either way India is our land.

Whether we left or that of our sons is academic.

So those who claim India is for Hindus only can ....

Cheers, Doc

 

[Austerlitz]

Either way India is our land.

Whether we left or that of our sons is academic.

So those who claim India is for Hindus only can ....

Cheers, Doc

Nobody can ever claim that.Parsis are a great and indivisible part of indian history .Such a tiny community has produced gems like manekshaw,tarapore,tatas,godrej,bhaba and hundreds more.
Zoroastrianism is close cousin of vedic hinduism.Even though most hindus today practice puranic hinduism which is a later development,except arya samajists.
Coming to political context,from what i have read of the writings of savarkar and his hindutva concept ,he identifies 3 adversaries - the communists,the muslims and christian missionaries.This type of blanket generalization is dangerous but can mobilize due to its clarity.His idea is basically quite simple - seize upon the most common denominator that unites the disparate ethnic and linguistic groups accross india.The answer was hinduism .Thus the atheist savarkar is now the marx of hindu nationalism.Now focusing on a 'religion' by defacto causes anxiety or apprehension amongst all non members even if the ideology doesnt attack all of them.This is a weakness of the ideology as in focusing on uniting the majority its causing unnecessary apprehension amongst others.
The recent dominance is a result of the greed,incompetence and insensitiveness of the congress .The congress was supposed to be a secular( in the true sense) nationalist party.Instead it has totally surrendered nationalism to the bjp.Its organization of dynasts at every step is obsolete and corruption ridden.Their mass base and contact is gone.But the hand symbol still has meaning to millions.The personnel need radical change.
What the congress doesnt realize is as young nation states consolidate and grow in prosperity its educated well off classes will look back at history to understand their identity ,heritage and try to develop a sense of pride and destiny.These ideas will be transmitted ever quickly through digital media.This happens all over the world.Hence ottoman revival in turkey.In the indian context congress has to recognize that india is the dharmic homeland,the only one there is.It is a secular republic,but also the dharmic homeland.You cant run roughsod over the 2nd in pursuit of the first.They have to be carefully balanced and each sentiment respected.
Finally the other big problem is that hindus and muslims of subcontinent have never truly reconciled as communities(not talking about individuals).The scars are ever present.The hindus cant get over their medieval defeat and humiliation,and muslims cant accept the failure of islam in conquering and converting india the way persia,africa,asia minor,central asia were done despite a 1200 year effort.And also the fact that once politically supreme ,the islamic community in south asia has been divided into 3 parts each largely helpless to oppose politically hindus of india who are now dominant again.The traumas of partition,the continous mad dog approach of pakistan,and the current global islamic fanaticism and terror has created a vitiated atmosphere.
Ultimately its important that there is a reconciliation,ram mandir issue is bothan oppurtunity as well as a challenge.Also the defeat or neutering of pakistan is also necessary for this.
Internally the congress either needs to reform massively or make way for new opposition.It needs to go back to its nationalistic roots,purge the dynasts,respect the dharmic nature of indian society by taking of its lutyens glasses and rebuild itself from grassroots without sacrificing its identity.I say this as an ex congress now bjp voter.Our democracy would be better served with 2 competitive nationalist parties with bjp keeping congress's insensitive secularism and appeasement under check and congress keeping bjps majoritarian impulses from taking an ugly turn and regional parties rallying round them.Monopoly of power is dangerous,and this would be best for our democracy.

 

[vsdoc]

Nobody can ever claim that.Parsis are a great and indivisible part of indian history .Such a tiny community has produced gems like manekshaw,tarapore,tatas,godrej,bhaba and hundreds more.
Zoroastrianism is close cousin of vedic hinduism.Even though most hindus today practice puranic hinduism which is a later development,except arya samajists.
Coming to political context,from what i have read of the writings of savarkar and his hindutva concept ,he identifies 3 adversaries - the communists,the muslims and christian missionaries.This type of blanket generalization is dangerous but can mobilize due to its clarity.His idea is basically quite simple - seize upon the most common denominator that unites the disparate ethnic and linguistic groups accross india.The answer was hinduism .Thus the atheist savarkar is now the marx of hindu nationalism.Now focusing on a 'religion' by defacto causes anxiety or apprehension amongst all non members even if the ideology doesnt attack all of them.This is a weakness of the ideology as in focusing on uniting the majority its causing unnecessary apprehension amongst others.
The recent dominance is a result of the greed,incompetence and insensitiveness of the congress .The congress was supposed to be a secular( in the true sense) nationalist party.Instead it has totally surrendered nationalism to the bjp.Its organization of dynasts at every step is obsolete and corruption ridden.Their mass base and contact is gone.But the hand symbol still has meaning to millions.The personnel need radical change.
What the congress doesnt realize is as young nation states consolidate and grow in prosperity its educated well off classes will look back at history to understand their identity ,heritage and try to develop a sense of pride and destiny.These ideas will be transmitted ever quickly through digital media.This happens all over the world.Hence ottoman revival in turkey.In the indian context congress has to recognize that india is the dharmic homeland,the only one there is.It is a secular republic,but also the dharmic homeland.You cant run roughsod over the 2nd in pursuit of the first.They have to be carefully balanced and each sentiment respected.
Finally the other big problem is that hindus and muslims of subcontinent have never truly reconciled as communities(not talking about individuals).The scars are ever present.The hindus cant get over their medieval defeat and humiliation,and muslims cant accept the failure of islam in conquering and converting india the way persia,africa,asia minor,central asia were done despite a 1200 year effort.And also the fact that once politically supreme ,the islamic community in south asia has been divided into 3 parts each largely helpless to oppose politically hindus of india who are now dominant again.The traumas of partition,the continous mad dog approach of pakistan,and the current global islamic fanaticism and terror has created a vitiated atmosphere.
Ultimately its important that there is a reconciliation,ram mandir issue is bothan oppurtunity as well as a challenge.Also the defeat or neutering of pakistan is also necessary for this.
Internally the congress either needs to reform massively or make way for new opposition.It needs to go back to its nationalistic roots,purge the dynasts,respect the dharmic nature of indian society by taking of its lutyens glasses and rebuild itself from grassroots without sacrificing its identity.I say this as an ex congress now bjp voter.Our democracy would be better served with 2 competitive nationalist parties with bjp keeping congress's insensitive secularism and appeasement under check and congress keeping bjps majoritarian impulses from taking an ugly turn and regional parties rallying round them.Monopoly of power is dangerous,and this would be best for our democracy.

The point about alienation and insecurity is something even a non sanghi Hindu cannot see.

They still look at India through a benign innately secular tolerant vision that is near dead now.

Only somehow millions of them did not get the memo.

It's easy to disregard 300+ million non-Hindus when you are a billion strong. On the paradigm that if you are with me great, if not,no problem, I can get it done myself.

The issue is the institutional waste.

The state carries the people.

But if the people are alienated, then they are there. Doing just enough for themselves. But a significant engine of growth and innovation is lost.

An engine that is as young as the rest. As restless.

An engine that is as big as the US or Europe.

Wasted. Peripheralized. When you say India for Hindus.

But we "welcome" the rest.

Newsflash. The rest have been here for as long as you. The rest are man for man as vital as you man for man.

Yes there are more men on one side.

But I prefer the Congress vision of India where there is no side.

Cheers, Doc

 

[_Anonymous_]

The split happened long before the birth of Zarathustra (the birth of Zoroastrianism you refer to).

Zoroastrianism is not a new religion. It was a seamless evolutionary continuum of older Mithraism, Manaechenism and Babakism (a lateral theological branch offshoot coming back and coalescing once more).

In essence, it's the last word. Not the first. And the split happened a lot earlier.

Cheers, Doc

You ought to post this in sight on Historum, dickraa.

 

[Arpit]

The point about alienation and insecurity is something even a non sanghi Hindu cannot see.

They still look at India through a benign innately secular tolerant vision that is near dead now.

Only somehow millions of them did not get the memo.

It's easy to disregard 300+ million non-Hindus when you are a billion strong. On the paradigm that if you are with me great, if not,no problem, I can get it done myself.

The issue is the institutional waste.

The state carries the people.

But if the people are alienated, then they are there. Doing just enough for themselves. But a significant engine of growth and innovation is lost.

An engine that is as young as the rest. As restless.

An engine that is as big as the US or Europe.

Wasted. Peripheralized. When you say India for Hindus.

But we "welcome" the rest.

Newsflash. The rest have been here for as long as you. The rest are man for man as vital as you man for man.

Yes there are more men on one side.

But I prefer the Congress vision of India where there is no side.

Cheers, Doc

Tell me when this was not the case in Indian context? Communal riots recorded as back as Aurenzed, and defeinetely there be several unrecorded riots even before that. There are recorded history of communal riots during Mauryan Empire.

In today's Twitter age, elites and not the general public, start to think society is polarizing because left start to loose. First time since British civil war and French Revolution.

And this is not just in India, this is all over the world. Liberals are no more liberals.

Even the word nationalist came from liberals, now that is right wing word. So when left wing lost the plot, that what was there ideology, suddenly societies are polarized? Why? Because right wing start to win.

And what is right wing ideology? That sometime ago was the ideology of left.


1 million people killed in 1947 because of communal riots, what was that? Some kind of old polarization, and some new polarization happening?

Surprise, India was always like that.

 

[vsdoc]

Tell me when this was not the case in Indian context? Communal riots recorded as back as Aurenzed, and defeinetely there be several unrecorded riots even before that. There are recorded history of communal riots during Mauryan Empire.

In today's Twitter age, elites and not the general public, start to think society is polarizing because left start to loose. First time since British civil war and French Revolution.

And this is not just in India, this is all over the world. Liberals are no more liberals.

Even the word nationalist came from liberals, now that is right wing word. So when left wing lost the plot, that what was there ideology, suddenly societies are polarized? Why? Because right wing start to win.

And what is right wing ideology? That sometime ago was the ideology of left.


1 million people killed in 1947 because of communal riots, what was that? Some kind of old polarization, and some new polarization happening?

Surprise, India was always like that.

I don't deny that Hindus got a raw deal in 1947.

I'm just not happy about how things are in 2019.

In an ideal world, India should have been for those who had no problem living with each other.

And that did not include the Muslims of the subcontinent.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. Lets not derail this thread. We can take it to the Politics one. @Arvind

 

[Arpit]

I don't deny that Hindus got a raw deal in 1947.

I'm just not happy about how things are in 2019.

In an ideal world, India should have been for those who had no problem living with each other.

And that did not include the Muslims of the subcontinent.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. Lets not derail this thread. We can take it to the Politics one. @Arvind

Black should had no problem with whites. But until 1966 or 67 , they had no civil rights.

No nation is perfect and in utopia, utopia itself is relative term.

But that also doesnt mean people start to run away from hard core realities, and like some bindi aunties wearing Saree start to portray India.

 

[Guynextdoor]

This thread is for Vedic world. Stick to the topic guys.

 

[S. A. T. A]

You should read the book. The (what is today) iranian/ persian areas and their impact on the Vedic narratives are considered all important. Especially the analysis of the 'Soma' references' in the Pamir mountains. You will enjoy it. (I'm still reading through the book)

Although it is still hotly contested, one of the the most widely accepted candidate for the source of the Soma/Homa drink is the plant 'ephedra'. Intriguingly the ephedra is called hom(or a variation of it) in persian speaking region in south and Central Asia. Interestingly this ephedra surprisingly turns up in the archaeological records that of interest to Indo-European studies (impacting the Indo-Aryan theories) The chief excavator at the 'Bactria-Margiana archaeological complex, the late Dr Victor Sarianidi reported that among various ritual items recovered from the site, included what he claims was the ephedra (seeds and possibly roots of the plant). One school of linguists place the Indo-iranians, before their split, within the confines of the region where Bactria-Margiana archaeological complex falls. Intriguingly Victor Mair in his work on the Tarim mummies (in western China) claims that Ephedra stalk were part of the burial horde left behind in the grave site. Prof Mair links the Tarim mummies to the Tocharian culture that existed in the same region in the classical period. Tocharian language is the eastern most member of the Indo-European group of languages. Ephedra seems to link the ancient Indians - Iranians - bactrians - Tocharians in a web of shared ritual practices.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Although it is still hotly contested, one of the the most widely accepted candidate for the source of the Soma/Homa drink is the plant 'ephedra'. Intriguingly the ephedra is called hom(or a variation of it) in persian speaking region in south and Central Asia. Interestingly this ephedra surprisingly turns up in the archaeological records that of interest to Indo-European studies (impacting the Indo-Aryan theories) The chief excavator at the 'Bactria-Margiana archaeological complex, the late Dr Victor Sarianidi reported that among various ritual items recovered from the site, included what he claims was the ephedra (seeds and possibly roots of the plant). One school of linguists place the Indo-iranians, before their split, within the confines of the region where Bactria-Margiana archaeological complex falls. Intriguingly Victor Mair in his work on the Tarim mummies (in western China) claims that Ephedra stalk were part of the burial horde left behind in the grave site. Prof Mair links the Tarim mummies to the Tocharian culture that existed in the same region in the classical period. Tocharian language is the eastern most member of the Indo-European group of languages. Ephedra seems to link the ancient Indians - Iranians - bactrians - Tocharians in a web of shared ritual practices.

The professor points out that they vedic texts and the weed VSDOC's smoked were probably different. In the Persian side 'homa' can have many candidates and and seems to be somewhat 'weaker' in potency than the stuff the Vedic in the subcontinent were referring to. the Persian stuff was probably found in the areas around the Pamir mountains while the Indian soma is described as being on the top of a specific mountain and difficult to get.

In summary....our forefathers smoked the better stuff...

 

[Ashwin]

This thread is for Vedic world. Stick to the topic guys.

Ok, This make be giggle coming from you.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Although it is still hotly contested, one of the the most widely accepted candidate for the source of the Soma/Homa drink is the plant 'ephedra'. Intriguingly the ephedra is called hom(or a variation of it) in persian speaking region in south and Central Asia. Interestingly this ephedra surprisingly turns up in the archaeological records that of interest to Indo-European studies (impacting the Indo-Aryan theories) The chief excavator at the 'Bactria-Margiana archaeological complex, the late Dr Victor Sarianidi reported that among various ritual items recovered from the site, included what he claims was the ephedra (seeds and possibly roots of the plant). One school of linguists place the Indo-iranians, before their split, within the confines of the region where Bactria-Margiana archaeological complex falls. Intriguingly Victor Mair in his work on the Tarim mummies (in western China) claims that Ephedra stalk were part of the burial horde left behind in the grave site. Prof Mair links the Tarim mummies to the Tocharian culture that existed in the same region in the classical period. Tocharian language is the eastern most member of the Indo-European group of languages. Ephedra seems to link the ancient Indians - Iranians - bactrians - Tocharians in a web of shared ritual practices.

I, personally, feel the time lines for the AMT circa 1500 BCE is contrived given that the Ghaggar Hakra which is purported to be the Saraswati in the sub continent dried up around 2000 BCE. This is important as the bulk of the Rg Vedic hymns is considered to have been composed here with a list of names in the surrounding geography accompanied by flora and fauna unique to the sub continent as opposed to Central Asia where we have a smattering of places named and also not all of the flora and fauna described in the Rg Veda. The Sapta Sindhu ( 7 rivers) fluvial topography is critical to this identification

Moreover, it's been well established that the Rg Veda was primarily the liturgical text of a sub branch of a tribe of one of the prominent Rg Vedic clans - the Trtsu belonging to the Bharata tribe of the Puru clan. The Dashrajina could well be an attempt to hegemonise the rest of the Rg Vedic tribes . There are ponderables with no clear answers forthcoming as of now.