Project-76 Indigenous Diesel-electric Submarine (SSK) Program

[Parthu]

Has the design for Project 76 already been finalised?

As per last update, it's in detailed design stage.

I'm not sure if that was such a wise decision before absorbing the Tech from German Type 214 with Indian specific upgrades, maybe we can built the Project 76 submarines in phases where we can incrementally upgrade the submarine while absorbing the tech or implement it in Project 77. Anyway, it's good that things are progressing at this level.

And what happens if the P-75I deal falls through and the TKMS boat never comes? We lose both P-75I and P-76 and become fully dependent on French? That's not ideal now is it.

I feel the P-76 will be pursued in parallel with P-75I for the most part, but with fully indigenous tech. And that would be as per design, this dual-mode approach was originally envisioned back in the 90s' sub plan. I may not agree with it fully but that's still the plan it seems.

So now x shape rudder, stealth outer shaping(like p75i),

This was to be expected actually.

nor any iep(hence no pumpjet) ,

Nothing to do with each other in this case. It's possible we implement IEP. Likely in fact.

Pumpjet is pretty much an unnecessary extravagance for a diesel boat anyway. The Shortfin Barracuda's pumpjet was pretty much a way to fleece more money out of the Aussies. A non-nuclear boat is never going to sustain the kind of transit speeds where a pumpjet's cavitation-suppression capabilities can justify the cost.

Nuclear boat is a different matter. There's a reason why even the gold-plated SSKs like Type-212CD, Orka or Blekinge-class don't bother with pumpjets.

and it still has aip insted of fully li-ion

Fully li-ion (better of solid state batteries are possible) is far far superior while giving much more flexibility and much usable in any war

No, full li-ion in place of AIP (new Japanese approach) is a way to leverage technology to reduce complexity & cost. But AIP+Li-ion (which is what we're likely to adopt) is far superior performance-wise as it gives you the best of both worlds.

 

[Tatvamasi]

You're treating shipbuilding like a factory output problem, while I'm treating it like a naval capability problem. Faster delivery is a valid advantage, but it doesn't automatically outweigh better endurance, more mature AIP technology, greater growth potential, and stronger technology absorption. A submarine expected to serve for four decades should be judged primarily on what it can do over those four decades, not just on which one leaves the dockyard first. That's why the Navy selected P-75I in the first place.

P75I is for better "tech" as you said. But P75 follow on is to continue the current line in the MDL. Since the entire program delayed we are probably going for evolved version of the already inducted product which gives us balance of speed and everything else you listed above. This is just entering production with indonesia. But it looks likes frenchies tried to mlik us one last time now here we are.

 

[PhotonVish]

No, full li-ion in place of AIP (new Japanese approach) is a way to leverage technology to reduce complexity & cost. But AIP+Li-ion (which is what we're likely to adopt) is far superior performance-wise as it gives you the best of both worlds.

Nope. A full li-ion can give similar undewater endurance at similar speed comapred to a good aip

But problem with aip:
-> once its consumed, u need to go to harbour to refill it
-> u can not use it recklessly and go on sprint

Advantage of li-ion:
-> li-ion can be fully refilled and can be used for high speed underwater use and then when threat level is low, just recharge it without going to harbous(which is becoming more and more dangerous as seen in russia ukrain war)

-> u can use your whole battery within 2-3 days of demanding conflict, move to secure/distant place. Refill batteries and then again go to combat (Far superior tactics and response time, suprising enemy)

Fully li-ion dont need u to go to harbour while aip need u to go when used hence very constrained usage and tactics

 

[Parthu]

Nope. A full li-ion can give similar undewater endurance at similar speed comapred to a good aip

But problem with aip:
-> once its consumed, u need to go to harbour to refill it
-> u can not use it recklessly and go on sprint

Advantage of li-ion:
-> li-ion can be fully refilled and can be used for high speed underwater use and then when threat level is low, just recharge it without going to harbous(which is becoming more and more dangerous as seen in russia ukrain war)

-> u can use your whole battery within 2-3 days of demanding conflict, move to secure/distant place. Refill batteries and then again go to combat (Far superior tactics and response time, suprising enemy)

Fully li-ion dont need u to go to harbour while aip need u to go when used hence very constrained usage and tactics

Bro, having AIP doesn't remove LIBs.

AIP is useful to keep as a source for hotel load/slow speed maneuvering while retaining LIB in reserve for high-speed burst. As I said, best of both worlds.

The KSS-III already uses this AIP+LIB setup.

 

[batman]

P75I is for better "tech" as you said. But P75 follow on is to continue the current line in the MDL. Since the entire program delayed we are probably going for evolved version of the already inducted product which gives us balance of speed and everything else you listed above. This is just entering production with indonesia. But it looks likes frenchies tried to mlik us one last time now here we are.

That's why I specifically said,

ideally we could make both and absorb the tech if possible for future indigenous platforms.

 

[Anupu]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2063139052753449402

View attachment 52042

I don't think it has VLS, or at least not Brahmos VLS. Look at the beam-to-length ratio; it's 10.

That means if we want to fire an 8.4m Brahmos, with such a flush VLS, we would need a beam of 9 meters, the very least, which would make it 90 meters long. That is longer than taiga. Easily 5000 tons class category.

 

[Parthu]

I don't think it has VLS, or at least not Brahmos VLS. Look at the beam-to-length ratio; it's 10.

That means if we want to fire an 8.4m Brahmos, with such a flush VLS, we would need a beam of 9 meters, the very least, which would make it 90 meters long. That is longer than taiga. Easily 5000 tons class category.


View attachment 52058

If VLS is indeed present, by the timelines we're looking at, it would probably be the 6m BrahMos-M/NG in question anyway.



LRLACM would also be the same 6m.

We'll see.

 

[PhotonVish]

Bro, having AIP doesn't remove LIBs.

AIP is useful to keep as a source for hotel load/slow speed maneuvering while retaining LIB in reserve for high-speed burst. As I said, best of both worlds.

The KSS-III already uses this AIP+LIB setup.

But aip do take money, space and weight and volume

Why not just use those resources and add a bigger li-ion battery ?

Thats what Japanese did.

Anyways what u said, "Best of both world" is already in any aip subs except of li-ion its lead acid and its low energy dense

As lead acid was low energy dense hence having seperate aip was good idea but now with li-ion(and then ssb) , we can get 2-3 weeks of underwater as low speed with only li-ion

But aip do take money, space and weight and volume

Why not just use those resources and add a bigger li-ion battery ?

Thats what Japanese did.

Anyways what u said, "Best of both world" is already in any aip subs except of li-ion its lead acid and its low energy dense

As lead acid was low energy dense hence having seperate aip was good idea but now with li-ion(and then ssb) , we can get 2-3 weeks of underwater as low speed with only li-ion

Infact i would say, semi sold state batteries are produced at industrial scale

We should get them,
they are much safer than li-ion or aip or any thing else

They also offer much better energy density and much better cycle life

My opinion:
go with semi sold for first 6 boat and fully solid with next 6(obv x shape rudder and all other things are necessary too)

We dont want/need 2000s submarine(scorpion) in 2035

 

[Tatvamasi]

That's why I specifically said,


ideally we could make both and absorb the tech if possible for future indigenous platforms.

Again complete hogwash statement.

You cant make cake and eat it too. This "Ideally" is not possible. Which is the entire point. Nine SSKs are lined up for decommissioning.

 

[batman]

Again complete hogwash statement.

You cant make cake and eat it too. This "Ideally" is not possible. Which is the entire point. Nine SSKs are lined up for decommissioning.

"Nine SSKs are retiring" is an argument for replacing submarines quickly, not an argument against technology absorption or future capability. Those are different problems, not mutually exclusive ones.