Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

Chester Nimitz said:
The Byelka is GaA radar and IAF felt Virupaksha to be superior GaN

Moreover , these Astra and RudraM integration is part of Rafale deal also
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As I have said here multiple times, Su-57 order is going to be split in two-parts: First order of 40-60 jets "off-the-shelf" directly from Russia. This would be single-seat standard one with primarily Russian avionics(Radar, IRST, EW etc). Then there is going to be an MKIsed version featuring tandem 2 seats, our own radar, IRST, EW, MCs etc., along with AL-51F1 or Item 177 engines. This MKIsed version will only be available post 2030 and will be locally manufactured at HAL Nashik plant. The first order of 40(to 60) jets is supposed to be delivered till 2030. Post that local manufacturing of 100(to 140) jets will begin from 2030 right upto 2035.

That's the plan but no "official" contract is signed yet as the terms, conditions, costs & timelines are still getting seriously discussed along with TOT, IP ownership and source-code issues. When the contract will get signed? Nothing is set in stone but hopefully before March 2027.
Chester Nimitz said:
F-35 doesn;t need Wedgetail and all that , you just need IAI OPAL to integrate all French and Russo stuff with F-35
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F-35 needs India to sell its soul and sovereignty to the devil and we'll just not do that. Period.
 
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Lolwa said:
Su-57 is a necessity now. This argument would be taken seriously 5 years ago, not today.

F-35 needs a lot of systems to function with the robustness we want but integrating them with cooperative targeting using Netra and Phalcons is something that I do not believe can be done using the IAI Opal
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NATO's joint aew unit is reportedly replacing its E-3 Sentry birds with the SAAB Globaleye. Incidentally, many NATO members are F-35 operators. Israeli F-35I operate with the IAI Elta 2085 CAEW (iirc, they have retired their E-2C Hawkeyes since). This means the F-35 is compatible with NATO-std comms protocols.

At best, you might need a middleware/gateway that can convert data shared over MADL into Link 16 format.

www.aerotime.aero

NATO picks Saab GlobalEye as new AWACS: report

NATO has awarded its E-3A AWACS replacement contract to Saab and Bombardier, selecting the GlobalEye platform, according to French defense publication La Lettre
www.aerotime.aero www.aerotime.aero

Whether the US would allow a F-35 MADL gateway on the Netra mk1/2 is a different matter though. They certainly won't on the Phalcon awacs because it has certain avionics of Russian origin. We don't have Link 16 on any platform either.

So perhaps E7 would be a necessity for us if we ever get the F-35.
 
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Speedster1 said:
NATO's joint aew unit is reportedly replacing its E-3 Sentry birds with the SAAB Globaleye. Incidentally, many NATO members are F-35 operators. Israeli F-35I operate with the IAI Elta 2085 CAEW (iirc, they have retired their E-2C Hawkeyes since). This means the F-35 is compatible with NATO-std comms protocols.

At best, you might need a middleware/gateway that can convert data shared over MADL into Link 16 format.

www.aerotime.aero

NATO picks Saab GlobalEye as new AWACS: report

NATO has awarded its E-3A AWACS replacement contract to Saab and Bombardier, selecting the GlobalEye platform, according to French defense publication La Lettre
www.aerotime.aero www.aerotime.aero

Whether the US would allow a F-35 MADL gateway on the Netra mk1/2 is a different matter though. They certainly won't on the Phalcon awacs because it has certain avionics of Russian origin. We don't have Link 16 on any platform either.

So perhaps E7 would be a necessity for us if we ever get the F-35.
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TBF Saab Erieye could be an option too considering the Adani Embraer and Adani Saab deal. I hope corruption ends up helping the IAF in this regard.
 
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Lolwa said:
TBF Saab Erieye could be an option too considering the Adani Embraer and Adani Saab deal. I hope corruption ends up helping the IAF in this regard.
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Erieye is an older gen tech (GaAs antenna, turboprop platform) meant for budget customers like the PAF. Compared to it, Globaleye is a high end LR option w/GaN tech, new software, etc. Now that the USAF is itself buying the E7, it might be the IAFs preferred choice to replace the Phalcon.
 
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Chester Nimitz said:
IAF should have bought more Phalcons in 2019 when they were planning

Instead of putting all eggs in 1 basket and waiting for DRDO and GoI to give them NETRA mk2 on Airbus

When it was a comlicated projected with incomplete radar at DRDO and cost negociations from Airbus
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2 more upgraded Phalcons were under discussion for a long time. The Isrealis quoted $2bn and the IAF/MoD said no. For comparison, the 1st batch of 3 cost us around $400m each.
 
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Speedster1 said:
2 more upgraded Phalcons were under discussion for a long time. The Isrealis quoted $2bn and the IAF/MoD said no. For comparison, the 1st batch of 3 cost us around $400m each.
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If we got production of il-76/176/276 we can make our own PHALCON. The Chinese did the same with the kj-2000
1777919887959.jpeg
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Likely the ship has sailed for more PHALCONs(though I hope I am wrong). Now it's time for Netra MK3 with ROTODOME antenna with 360° coverage to take over in due time.
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The IAF probably regrets not going for the Airbus A319/21 platform for its Phalcons back in the 2000s. The poor availability of the IL-76s cost us dearly in 2019. None of those birds were in the air when the PAF strike formation arrived on scene and that too in numbers.

I'd say rotodome would be a step down from the fixed 4 face antenna array the DRDO has already developed for AWACS (I). Extra complexity and added weight for no performance gains.
 
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lmaoxd said:
The french are continually delaying ICD approval just to stall for time for this j35 purchase to be confirmed and the first J35 to get into pakistani service. what they want is to squeeze us for more.
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Negotiations haven't even begun. The RFP is yet to be released.

J-35 is irrelevent here. It's India that's delaying the RFP's release.

We will sign the deal before PAF gets their J-35s.
 
Chester Nimitz said:
How confident are you with the Su 57 acquisition when IAF wanted Virupaksha in it and many Indian sub systems

Russians are backward in electronics and do not even have AESA in any jet except Su 57.

I am personally very skeptical of Su 57 which has become a joke since PAK FA , IAF left.

AL 51 engine is also what IAF preferred but are still testing .

Moreover, where is the deal for AL 41 for Super Sukhoi | No Uttam or Virupaksha induction either
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Russia's technologically fine in the electronics department. Replacement with Indian electronics is specific to Indian needs rather than deficiency from the Russian side. Virupaksha and other MKI-derived avionics won't be sufficient for the Su-57 anyway, it will need AMCA's avionics.

As you pointed out with the AL-51, the Su-57 is not ready yet. The IAF has shown passing interest in the two-seat version for now, but nothing concrete. The IAF is yet to evaluate the Felon.

No AL-41 for MKI Phase 1, only uprated AL-31FP for the first 84 jets. Let's see what the Russian package looks like for later jets.
 
Speedster1 said:
NATO's joint aew unit is reportedly replacing its E-3 Sentry birds with the SAAB Globaleye. Incidentally, many NATO members are F-35 operators. Israeli F-35I operate with the IAI Elta 2085 CAEW (iirc, they have retired their E-2C Hawkeyes since). This means the F-35 is compatible with NATO-std comms protocols.

At best, you might need a middleware/gateway that can convert data shared over MADL into Link 16 format.

www.aerotime.aero

NATO picks Saab GlobalEye as new AWACS: report

NATO has awarded its E-3A AWACS replacement contract to Saab and Bombardier, selecting the GlobalEye platform, according to French defense publication La Lettre
www.aerotime.aero www.aerotime.aero

Whether the US would allow a F-35 MADL gateway on the Netra mk1/2 is a different matter though. They certainly won't on the Phalcon awacs because it has certain avionics of Russian origin. We don't have Link 16 on any platform either.

So perhaps E7 would be a necessity for us if we ever get the F-35.
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F-35's out of the picture. India used Trump's trade war to extricate itself out of the F-35 offer. It was a direct response to the hike in tariff.


They are free to offer F-47 and F/A-XX in the future instead.

In any case, the F-35 can carry Indian data links to share data with Indian AWACS.
 
Speedster1 said:
None of those birds were in the air when the PAF strike formation arrived on scene and that too in numbers.
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What? More Pakistani propaganda?

We had two AWACS in the air, Phalcon and Netra, over Kashmir. IAF even released Phalcon AWACS air pictures of the F-16 splash.

Scroll down to Evidence 3.
theprint.in

8 pieces of clinching evidence that show how IAF's Abhinandan shot down a Pakistani F-16

Using Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) & other evidence, an IAF veteran reconstructs IAF-PAF battle day after Balakot & concludes PAF indeed lost an F-16.
theprint.in theprint.in

Phalcons are not facing the same supply chain issues as older IL-76s.
 
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randomradio said:
No rotodomes on Indian and Chinese AESA AWACS. Only on older American and Russian AWACS.
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Well, I meant fixed rotodomes. Even PHALCON is just like that. And Chinese have plethora of such systems like KJ-500, KJ-2000 etc. Hopefully, we also design Netra MK3 with a fixed ROTODOME with 360° coverage is what I'm waiting for.
randomradio said:
Phalcons are out, too old.
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Yes, but we still needed at least 2 more. Sad that it didn't happen.
 
randomradio said:
What? More Pakistani propaganda?

We had two AWACS in the air, Phalcon and Netra, over Kashmir. IAF even released Phalcon AWACS air pictures of the F-16 splash.
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Bruh, I clearly recall reading that the Phalcons were not on station at the time. The PAF reportedly struck during a change of shift (between RTB and TO/arrival). The radar screen grabs shown to the media by the IAF were indeed generated by a Phalcon but one that scrambled later.

To your 2nd point, IAF Phalcons don't fly nearly as much as the transport fleet. Even so spares supply has been a major problem.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Well, I meant fixed rotodomes. Even PHALCON is just like that. And Chinese have plethora of such systems like KJ-500, KJ-2000 etc. Hopefully, we also design Netra MK3 with a fixed ROTODOME with 360° coverage is what I'm waiting for.

Yes, but we still needed at least 2 more. Sad that it didn't happen.
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The roto in rotodome means rotating.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Well, I meant fixed rotodomes. Even PHALCON is just like that. And Chinese have plethora of such systems like KJ-500, KJ-2000 etc. Hopefully, we also design Netra MK3 with a fixed ROTODOME with 360° coverage is what I'm waiting for.
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It's a pity the IAF didn't ask the DRDO to adapt the Netra's side looking radar array into a conformal package, compact enough to go onboard a G550 class platform. Nose and tail antennas to cover the front and rear quadrants.

The DRDO could've leveraged its work on the ISTAR prog which uses the same airframe too.
 
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