Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Ashwin said:
This is from 2022.
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My apologies Ashwin, it seem my annotations/comments did not go through with the post. I kept running into some error when editing. I had wanted to tie this with the recent post from HAL and was pondering about what happened to this after testing it. There has been little news since 2022/23. There was a notification for trial completion that was published. However, I am curious to know how many actually made it into production.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2042598588245774361

“The launcher and missile are ready. There are some Human Machine Interface (HMI) to be realised which are going on now,” Dr. Sood told The Hindu . While the cost estimate is yet to be done, each missile is expected to cost under ₹1 crore and initially around 500 missiles and 40 launchers will be required, he says.
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www.thehindu.com

Anti-tank missile completes all trials

Process for issuing Acceptance of Necessity by Army for Helina has started, says Project Director
www.thehindu.com www.thehindu.com
 
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ROCKS is a next-generation extended stand-off air-to-surface missile that incorporates RAFAEL’s advanced technologies from the legacy Popeye and SPICE air-to-surface weapons. It is designed to strike high-value stationary and relocatable targets above ground – or underground, heavily fortified targets – with pinpoint accuracy in GPS-denied arenas. The missile can be equipped with either a penetration or blast fragmentation warhead. An advanced EO seeker, together with the Anti- Radiation homing, enables day, night and all-weather operation. Automatic Target Acquisition, using a unique scene-matching algorithm and Anti-Radiation technology, overcomes any GPS jamming scenario, as well as navigation and Target Location Errors.
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The new commercial for ROCKS. Places emphasis on Penetration capability and GPS Independence.

 
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DerBerserker said:
Looks like the Russians may have cleared the R-37M for sale to India. Wonder how that'll affect the Gandiva.
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No.
R-37Ms effective range against an aware fighter target is approx 160-170km at best, gandiva with sustained ramjet will have have 200-250km+.

The 300-400km described range for r-37m is for slow moving large targets, even then 400km described range would require very optimal launch conditions.

Though r-37m can still force fighter to go on defensive from 200+km away, in many cases abandoning the mission.
 
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Amer Mahajane said:
R37m is for slow moving targets like awacs and refuellers. Gandiva is for fighter sized targets.
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R 37M is more than capable of intercepting all type of maneuvering fighter jet currently in service anywhere in the world not just slow moving targets like AWACS & refuellers. No need to look far, Ukrainian fighter jet are getting knocked out of the sky by R 37 on monthly basis.
 
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South block said:
R 37M is more than capable of intercepting all type of maneuvering fighter jet currently in service anywhere in the world not just slow moving targets like AWACS & refuellers. No need to look far, Ukrainian fighter jet are getting knocked out of the sky by R 37 on monthly basis.
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Agree that it can intercept all type, but effective ranges vary by targets & Ukrainian fighter jets that were shot down were unaware( no rwr, maws) ingressing targets.

And what is the source for this claim?
South block said:
Ukrainian fighter jet are getting knocked out of the sky by R 37 on monthly basis.
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without AESA seeker & with tin can radar of SU-30, I don't think procuring R-37M will make much of a difference. It's another knee-jerk reaction but a necessary one.
 
babablacksheep said:
Agree that it can intercept all type, but effective ranges vary by targets & Ukrainian fighter jets that were shot down were unaware( no rwr, maws) ingressing targets.

And what is the source for this claim?
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R-37M, launched by Mig-31BM, Su-35 & Su-30SM2 have literally reigned havoc on Ukrainian Air Force fighter jets, knocking them out of sky from more than 200kms and this not only included old fighters like Su-27 or Mig-29 with archaic RWR but also modern fighters like F-16AM MLU that have very good EW.

R-37M can engage targets pulling 8G, so it is good enough to swat any kind of target. Anyways, comparison with Astra Mk3/Gandiva is moot as the latter is a SFDR based ultra modern BVR in Meteor class while R-37M utilises dual-stage(boost-sustain) rocket-motor. They are not comparable except the fact that both have 350-400 kms range.
South block said:
without AESA seeker & with tin can radar of SU-30, I don't think procuring R-37M will make much of a difference. It's another knee-jerk reaction but a necessary one.
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??
BARS is still very effective thanks to constant yet classified upgrades it has got in both hardware(TWT) and software-algorithms. Plus, thanks to our AFNET NODES, shooter MKI may not need to guide R-37M towards its target as it may be done by any other airborne radar(from AWACS or Rafale's RBE2-AESA etc.) or any ground-based FCR.
 
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babablacksheep said:
Correct clarification would be shot down some, and force others to go on defensive, in many cases abandoning the mission.
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& that's the whole purpose of such long range missiles. A single SU 30 armed with 8 R-37 can cause whole enemy strike package to run for cover..... a basic simple fact to difficult for IAF joker leadership to understand.
 
Rajput Lion said:
R-37M, launched by Mig-31BM, Su-35 & Su-30SM2 have literally reigned havoc on Ukrainian Air Force fighter jets, knocking them out of sky from more than 200kms and this not only included old fighters like Su-27 or Mig-29 with archaic RWR but also modern fighters like F-16AM MLU that have very good EW.

R-37M can engage targets pulling 8G, so it is good enough to swat any kind of target. Anyways, comparison with Astra Mk3/Gandiva is moot as the latter is a SFDR based ultra modern BVR in Meteor class while R-37M utilises dual-stage(boost-sustain) rocket-motor. They are not comparable except the fact that both have 350-400 kms range.

??
BARS is still very effective thanks to constant yet classified upgrades it has got in both hardware(TWT) and software-algorithms. Plus, thanks to our AFNET NODES, shooter MKI may not need to guide R-37M towards its target as it may be done by any other airborne radar(from AWACS or Rafale's RBE2-AESA etc.) or any ground-based FCR.
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Reported fighter jets shown down by r-37m are mig29,su27,su25.

An f16 was shot down, but what weapon was used is not confirmed.
 
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babablacksheep said:
No.
R-37Ms effective range against an aware fighter target is approx 160-170km at best, gandiva with sustained ramjet will have have 200-250km+.

The 300-400km described range for r-37m is for slow moving large targets, even then 400km described range would require very optimal launch conditions.

Though r-37m can still force fighter to go on defensive from 200+km away, in many cases abandoning the mission.
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Eh, the R-37Ms are still, as the others have said, capable of shooting down fighter sized targets at nearly the same range with one report of a Ukrainian Su-27 having been hit stating that it was fired at a distance of ~220km. The 37M, while optimised for HVTs, can hit a target maneuvering at 8G well past 250km according to its official data. Still, Gandiva is undoubtedly the super missile kinematically, due to the SDR giving it a massive NEZ (its effective range will not be 250km, it will likely be ~300 or more due to this fact) and insane energy + velocity at impact, but the R-37M does cut into its role partially. This is where my initial concern comes into play. Both missiles will be used to attack HVTs, and that's where my concern of the IAF possibly putting the order of the Gandiva on the back burner comes from should the 37M enter service, since the R-37M will force the opponent's aerial assets to fly even further out, thus making induction of the Gandiva slightly lower on the priority list (assuming the worst shines of the classic lethargic acquisition approach).
 
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Rajput Lion said:
BARS is still very effective thanks to constant yet classified upgrades it has got in both hardware(TWT) and software-algorithms. Plus, thanks to our AFNET NODES, shooter MKI may not need to guide R-37M towards its target as it may be done by any other airborne radar(from AWACS or Rafale's RBE2-AESA etc.) or any ground-based FCR.
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One of our most massive and most important upgrades has been to repeatedly upgrade the BARS's ECCM, iirc. Its a whole order of magnitude superior now, as far as I know. The true capabilities of the modernised BARS in Indian service are going to be vastly different to what they were in ~2002, and this will hold especially true when going up against the Chinese who have far more advanced EW than Pakistan does.
 
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the BARS radar is still kinda shit at the end of day. We need the upgrade to survive on the 2030s battlefields, might be able to limp the old radar until 2030 but not much longer.
DerBerserker said:
One of our most massive and most important upgrades has been to repeatedly upgrade the BARS's ECCM, iirc. Its a whole order of magnitude superior now, as far as I know. The true capabilities of the modernised BARS in Indian service are going to be vastly different to what they were in ~2002, and this will hold especially true when going up against the Chinese who have far more advanced EW than Pakistan does.
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