MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[batman]

That's 'cause people are busy comparing paper capabilities of 5th gen jets that don't work against real world capabilities of the Rafale that have been demonstrated in combat.

Thanks for being respectful in this whole ordeal

F-22? Even the USAF admits is old and limited in capability.
F-35? Doesn't even come with a radar now. And full software release is 2033. Interim release by 2031. So it doesn't work anyway.

Literally nobody here cares for both here, america doesn't sell f22 to anyone and we don't want the f35 either. Although I have to add that f22 is still the worlds 2nd best air superiority fighter with its low observable traits after the Su57.

F-35 does have a radar, the AN/APG-81 AESA is fully operational and has been since IOC in 2016. Block 4 upgrades (including TR-3 hardware and full software) are rolling out right now. Israel, US Marines, and multiple allies are flying combat missions with it daily. The “no radar / software in 2033” line is pure misinformation.

Su-57? Still not operational. Interim engines only. Limited to no avionics beyond initial capability release.

It is operational though, it already has an interim engine which is semi 5th gen and more capable than anything we have so far, it is definetly an upgrade. Also, lets assume you are right about the radar and electronics warfare being best in rafale, it still falls short in many other areas like twt, maneuverability, combat radius, stealth, weapons payload, IRCM suite, sensory capability, tot for the aircraft, ability to improve it's capability, ability to integrate our own weapons etc

It has also seen combat in ukraine with newer technical configuration based on real combat. It has also completed SEAD and Strike Operation in Nato defended airspace, that's not paper capability. Even america wouldn't risk their f35 or f22 in similar conditions.

Rafale? Pretty much everything advertised works. Performance exceeds expectations, avionics exceed expectations, weapons exceed expectations.

Performance defintely doesn't exceed expectations,

reminds me of this post where the developers in war thunder I believe had to come out and say this about the jet

If you compare it to the F-35, it has better performance, better weapons, and the avionics actually work without confusing the pilot. Fully mature 5th gen capabilities. And yes, with active stealth.

You ain't seriously trying to say that the Rafale is a more capable jet than the F35 are you? Such kinda statements would get you laughed at by the international community in any other forum.

Performance is debatable since rafale would have better kinematics and low-level agility compare to f35 because of its stealth design however the engine in f35 is the best engine there is, the rafale can't match it's raw acceleration. Also in the era of BVR combat, such capabilities become of less importance, the primary advantage is who has first fire advantage? The f35 clearly would have the upper hand in this department. It's sensor fusion and data fusion is world class although I'm not very familiar with the limitations the software issue's you mentioned are causing. It's network centric warfare is also better than rafale.

As for the Su-57, the IAF has not even bothered to go to Russia to see it, and here people want a contract.

Maybe because India doesn't want to anger uncle sam before we can sign the ge414 deal, I'm pretty sure there would have been some level of talks happening in closed channels for it.

If Felon is to enter service in India, and the IAF does not choose a 6th gen JV within the next 5 years, then it will have to compete with other 6th gens in its future Su-60 or Su-65 variants for the 2040s. In the meantime, the Russians will get some MKIs they can upgrade. That's about all they can expect for now.

The su57 is already a 5.5 gen jet, it can probably be upgraded to have most of the important 6th gen features and it will actually be a really mature jet by then. Isn't that what you care for the most? Else you wouldn't be comparing a 4th gen jet to a 5th gen one here.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Thanks for being respectful in this whole ordeal

Literally nobody here cares for both here, america doesn't sell f22 to anyone and we don't want the f35 either. Although I have to add that f22 is still the worlds 2nd best air superiority fighter with its low observable traits after the Su57.

F-35 does have a radar, the AN/APG-81 AESA is fully operational and has been since IOC in 2016. Block 4 upgrades (including TR-3 hardware and full software) are rolling out right now. Israel, US Marines, and multiple allies are flying combat missions with it daily. The “no radar / software in 2033” line is pure misinformation.

It is operational though, it already has an interim engine which is semi 5th gen and more capable than anything we have so far, it is definetly an upgrade. Also, lets assume you are right about the radar and electronics warfare being best in rafale, it still falls short in many other areas like twt, maneuverability, combat radius, stealth, weapons payload, IRCM suite, sensory capability, tot for the aircraft, ability to improve it's capability, ability to integrate our own weapons etc

It has also seen combat in ukraine with newer technical configuration based on real combat. It has also completed SEAD and Strike Operation in Nato defended airspace, that's not paper capability. Even america wouldn't risk their f35 or f22 in similar conditions.

Performance defintely doesn't exceed expectations,

reminds me of this post where the developers in war thunder I believe had to come out and say this about the jet

View attachment 51153

You ain't seriously trying to say that the Rafale is a more capable jet than the F35 are you? Such kinda statements would get you laughed at by the international community in any other forum.

Performance is debatable since rafale would have better kinematics and low-level agility compare to f35 because of its stealth design however the engine in f35 is the best engine there is, the rafale can't match it's raw acceleration. Also in the era of BVR combat, such capabilities become of less importance, the primary advantage is who has first fire advantage? The f35 clearly would have the upper hand in this department. It's sensor fusion and data fusion is world class although I'm not very familiar with the limitations the software issue's you mentioned are causing. It's network centric warfare is also better than rafale.

Maybe because India doesn't want to anger uncle sam before we can sign the ge414 deal, I'm pretty sure there would have been some level of talks happening in closed channels for it.

The su57 is already a 5.5 gen jet, it can probably be upgraded to have most of the important 6th gen features and it will actually be a really mature jet by then. Isn't that what you care for the most? Else you wouldn't be comparing a 4th gen jet to a 5th gen one here.

Rafale is an excellent jet but as we found out during last year's skirmish that against PAF J-10CE + PL-15 combo, it doesn't give us the same level of dominance IAF hoped for. Against J-35AE and PL-15/16 combo, IAF would be on back-foot, thus Su-57 is considered as an immediate solution to counter PAF & PLAAF 5th gen fleet. IAF has principally agreed for 40(to 60) jets as stop-gap. The contract is in advance stage as we speak. The real discussion is about local production of 100(upto 140) jets. GOI, HAL & UAC are on sync regrading this and IAF is also considering this seriously. Let's see.

 

[Speedster1]

The Russians are trying to claw their way into the MKI UPG program per recent reports. I suspect that's because Sukhoi's Su-57MKI pitch didn't go too well at AHQ.

Media reports say the IAF is worried about the DRDO UPG kit not meeting timelines. But who's to say that this isn't due to Russian lobbying for a piece of the pie.

When he was here last year, Putin reportedly also offered Su-35S which the IAF has previously showed no interest in either. So it looks like they are just angling for more orders.

The PAF might be getting Viper B70s w/C7 model AMRAAMs soon. So 114 Rafale + R-37M + Astra mk2 would be the immediate priority, imo.

It is entirely possible the Saudis might bankroll J-35 for the PAF in the near future. But we might not see the IAF sign for Felon until after Pak formally places an order with China.

 

[randomradio]

Okay, but I'm not saying the same engine, I'm saying its a derivative of both the Izd. 30, and the AL-41F1. An engine is a part of what improves stealth characteristics, but having an interim "Stage 1.5" engine doesn't magically turn it into a non-stealth aircraft. If it sits in the same footprint, I fail to see how besides, maybe the lack of a sawtooth nozzle, the aircraft seriously gets affected by it being there (not talking about IR signatures, sound, and what not).

The last statement I absolutely have to disagree with you on, the 57 is far more capable in the A2A role than the Rafale, and pitting them against each other will almost certainly see the Rafale lose most of the time.
You simply cannot put them in the same class. This is not to say the Rafale is a bad airframe, quite the opposite imo. It is one of, if not the best non-stealth aircraft ever made and is capable of actually holding its own even in the modern battlefield thanks to its massive techonlogical advancements and sophistication. It would absolutely give the 57 a challenge, but to say that the Rafale is overwhelmingly superior to the point the 57 provides "absolutely no advantage", is also a gross exaggeration and I believe, quite incorrect.
Passive, geometric stealth is still incredibly important - if it wasn't and Active stealth was truly just as capable, the Gripen would've been superior to the F-35 according to SAAB and its marketing division. Yet, Canada found it to be pitiful in front of the F-35 in every single aspect during tests (Mission Performance the most) - the F-35 scored 57.1/60 points, whereas the Gripen was stuck at a total of 19.8/60. The Gripen's entire selling point was, similarly, Active stealth and EW. Sure, the Gripen is not as advanced as the Rafale, nor is it as capable of it, and in the Rafale's case, as a 4.5 gen we do absolutely need it may help it survive and maybe even do well against targets like the J-20 or Su-57, but not to the point nearly every air force looking at procuring a 5th Gen, chooses a 4.5 gen with "active" stealth over a true stealth airframe.
I agree the Rafale has probably been designed to survive and counter detection using EW, deception, and networked warfare, and with its sensor suite performing just as well, maybe even at the same level (or better) than a few 5th Gen's systems. All, no doubt, very important features and pivotal to modern combat, however, talking about how the "airframe is not shiny enough" is no real point when 5th Gens also do the exact same things, they just have passive stealth as well. To me it is not a matter of a fork in the road, it is that the 5th gens (like the F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-35 and J-20) all do the same things as what you've posited are the Rafale's advantages, but with additional passive stealth capabilities. It is not that they choose option A or B, it is that the Rafale hasn't ticked all the same boxes as them in the first place. It is an advanced airframe with 5th gen Sensors and electronic capabilities, but is limited by the lack of it being a non-stealth airframe.
The exceptions where I think the Rafale may be superior to the 57 are those of SPECTRA (this one the most), its situational awareness, and the aforementioned upgrades to the RBE2 (again, the sensors). These, imo, make it a competitive aircraft in the modern combat scene. But, on the other hand, the 57 already has many if not most of these features and more, like LDIRCM and L-Band detection arrays. The 57 also has an ECM Suite, the L-402 Himalayas, integrated into the MIRES (and information about them is in very short supply).
The Russians are also already more than willing to provide ToT for the 57. Its avionics are actually quite well made, and they consistently get upgrades, though I do agree we will probably not get the domestic equivalents, which is fine as long as they are upgraded shortly, which they will be. Besides the MKI-zation of the 57 is pretty much a guarantee, that, or substantial ISEs. Possibly we'll see an induction plan not unlike our 30MKIs, where we got Su-30Ks for a while, before we recieved our beloved Flanker-Hs. In this case, we'd recieve the 57M1E, before we get the 57MKI.

The paper capabilities of Su-57 is superior to the Rafale, but that only means someday it will be better than the Rafale. But that's not today.

Similarly, the F-35's paper specs were compared to verifiable and older real world capabilities of Rafale in European evaluations. The F-35 on paper is also superior to the Rafale. They couldn't even verify it, they simply tested it all on a simulator and decided to go with it.

I don't think the Swedes had developed active stealth back then. It's unclear if they even have it today. Plus evaluations are conducted on verifiable metrics and special capabilities are categorized separately. So even if Gripen demonstrated AC, the Europeans wouldn't have taken it into consideration in the final score. Apart from that, Gripen still comes with limited capabilities, like LCA Mk2, so its low score is understandable. The F-35's paper specs are definitely far superior to the Gripen E.

The IAF values Rafale's avionics and maturity over Su-57's passive stealth and supersonic performance (with Izd 30). But over time, Su-57 will also become mature, and it will start showing its superiority then. Rafale was in the same boat in the 2000s, when it was no better than the F-16 due to lack of maturity. Its PESA radar was inferior to the latest American AESA radars and AIM-120C7 and C8 were considered superior to MICA. It's only after 8 years of service that Rafale was finally able to become the best jet around in its F3+ form.

The Su-57 has to go through 8-10 years of operational maturity to deliver the same result. That's why when it comes to both Su-57 sand F-35 I push for future variants as options instead of the vanilla versions. For Su-57, the two-seat is a good benchmark whereas for F-35, it's Block 5-10. Even for 6th gen, our goal should be to take deliveries at least 5 years after they enter service.

We see the same with the IAF choosing Rafale F4 instead of F5. The IAF prefers the mature F4 over taking risk with the F5 even though our F4s will be delivered in the same time as the F5. And we probably plan on accepting the F5 five years later. So if we are willing to wait for an already proven design, you can bet your socks we will wait even longer when it comes to new designs like the Su-57.

FGFA too was aimed for many years after Su-57 attained maturity, 2017 vs 2023. The Russians were to finish development first and start inductions post which we were to begin the engineering phase. Russia was supposed to achieve IOC in 2017 with the first regiment already operational and Izd 30 was supposed to become operational in 2019. And our main prototypes were supposed to be powered by the Izd 30. Russia failed the program so badly that the Su-57 is at IOC stage only now, and their avionics configuration is still a decade old, originally meant to be operational in 2017-19 with Izd 30.

So Su-57 today is still that old, and you still want the IAF to go for it? In practical terms, the engine is still an interim version and the avionics are outdated. Our minimum standards can only be met by the next variant if the Russians build to that standard.

 

[randomradio]

Thanks for being respectful in this whole ordeal

Cheers. I always try to be.

F-35 does have a radar, the AN/APG-81 AESA is fully operational and has been since IOC in 2016. Block 4 upgrades (including TR-3 hardware and full software) are rolling out right now. Israel, US Marines, and multiple allies are flying combat missions with it daily. The “no radar / software in 2033” line is pure misinformation.

Ballast Instead of Radar: Lockheed Martin Delivers F-35 Without AN/APG-85 Due to Delays

Due to delays in developing the new AN/APG-85 radar, the United States will receive F-35 aircraft for its air component without operational radars starting in June 2025. Instead, ballast is […]

militarnyi.com

It is operational though, it already has an interim engine which is semi 5th gen and more capable than anything we have so far,

The IAF is not interested in Su-57's physical characteristics right now.

Performance defintely doesn't exceed expectations,

reminds me of this post where the developers in war thunder I believe had to come out and say this about the jet

View attachment 51153

He is being pedantic over 1.3 and 1.4. MKI flies at mach 1.3 using minimum burner. If Rafale does the same without min burner, we have a winner here. In comparison, older jets are stuck at mach 0.9. So Rafale already provides an advantage that makes the Su-57's only trait with a new engine pointless.

You ain't seriously trying to say that the Rafale is a more capable jet than the F35 are you? Such kinda statements would get you laughed at by the international community in any other forum.

How would you like to compare the Rafale's functioning radar with a bunch of weights and no software?

They can laugh all they want, but they should use the F-35's ballast weights to build muscle as they laugh.

Laughing and building muscle, that's a good life.

The issue with the F-35 is the same as the Su-57, all glitzy in a brochure, but nothing works yet.

If your choice is between a real-life page 3 model and the cover page of the Playboy magazine, which one would you pick?

The F-35 as it stands today in its latest variant can only handle training missions. They cannot be used in combat. The ones used in combat are just IOC models on the older TR-2 hardware.

Performance is debatable since rafale would have better kinematics and low-level agility compare to f35 because of its stealth design however the engine in f35 is the best engine there is, the rafale can't match it's raw acceleration. Also in the era of BVR combat, such capabilities become of less importance, the primary advantage is who has first fire advantage? The f35 clearly would have the upper hand in this department. It's sensor fusion and data fusion is world class although I'm not very familiar with the limitations the software issue's you mentioned are causing. It's network centric warfare is also better than rafale.

Erm, pretty much everything in terms of performance is better with Rafale. Even acceleration and climb. The F-35 struggles against the F-16, whereas the Rafale regularly slaughters the F-16. Even the M2000 has higher acceleration and the Rafale actually has to slow down on the throttle in order to not overshoot it.

Among Western jets, Rafale's only beaten by the F-22 and Typhoon due to its lower thrust rating.

Maybe because India doesn't want to anger uncle sam before we can sign the ge414 deal, I'm pretty sure there would have been some level of talks happening in closed channels for it.

No, the IAF has not bothered with the vanilla Su-57 at all. And the one on offer is the Su-57E, which is trash. They are yet to make an M1E and offer that for evaluations. But the IAF is not interested in either of the Russia-specific models. It's been the case since 2007. They are open to look at the two-seat model, but that's in relation to future capabilities that can rival other future competitors like SCAF/GCAP.

The US has no part to play in any evaluation the IAF does. They are simply not interested in what is clearly WIP.

The su57 is already a 5.5 gen jet, it can probably be upgraded to have most of the important 6th gen features and it will actually be a really mature jet by then. Isn't that what you care for the most? Else you wouldn't be comparing a 4th gen jet to a 5th gen one here.

Not yet. It will become one eventually, but it's not there yet. Post 6925 covers that little detail.

 

[randomradio]

The Russians are trying to claw their way into the MKI UPG program per recent reports. I suspect that's because Sukhoi's Su-57MKI pitch didn't go too well at AHQ.

Media reports say the IAF is worried about the DRDO UPG kit not meeting timelines. But who's to say that this isn't due to Russian lobbying for a piece of the pie.

When he was here last year, Putin reportedly also offered Su-35S which the IAF has previously showed no interest in either. So it looks like they are just angling for more orders.

The PAF might be getting Viper B70s w/C7 model AMRAAMs soon. So 114 Rafale + R-37M + Astra mk2 would be the immediate priority, imo.

It is entirely possible the Saudis might bankroll J-35 for the PAF in the near future. But we might not see the IAF sign for Felon until after Pak formally places an order with China.

If we actually get into a SCAF/GCAP JV, then we can plan a faster phase out of the MKI. Which means a faster MLU cycle, and we know HAL cannot handle the volumes within a shorter timeframe.

Russia's already done a lot of work on further developing the MKI via Su-30SM and SM2 than HAL has, so things should move a lot faster via dropfit upgrades using their new radar. They might even offer a configuration superior to our own MLU. They have always offered to make greater changes to the airframe if they were the ones doing it.

 

[Speedster1]

If we actually get into a SCAF/GCAP JV, then we can plan a faster phase out of the MKI. Which means a faster MLU cycle, and we know HAL cannot handle the volumes within a shorter timeframe.

Russia's already done a lot of work on further developing the MKI via Su-30SM and SM2 than HAL has, so things should move a lot faster via dropfit upgrades using their new radar. They might even offer a configuration superior to our own MLU. They have always offered to make greater changes to the airframe if they were the ones doing it.

Frankly, SCAF is only a pipe dream at the moment. And we don't even have observer status on the GCAP prog. I highly doubt the IAF is thinking that far out into the future, given the current state of its fleet.

Afaik, SM2 is largely based on avionics, and EW ported from the Su-35S. The radar is Bars++ with upgraded backend. Any new avionics and sensors from Russia would likely need extensive testing and certification. Might as well stick to the Virupaksha.

If HAL can't deliver, IAF BRDs could take up some of the UPG work as they're doing with the MiG-29s.

 

[randomradio]

Frankly, SCAF is only a pipe dream at the moment. And we don't even have observer status on the GCAP prog. I highly doubt the IAF is thinking that far out into the future, given the current state of its fleet.

IAF will have to match the decision-making speed of the partners if they are to go in for a JV. Import, not so much.

Afaik, SM2 is largely based on avionics, and EW ported from the Su-35S. The radar is Bars++ with upgraded backend. Any new avionics and sensors from Russia would likely need extensive testing and certification. Might as well stick to the Virupaksha.

That's also what we want, new avionics. They should have created more modern standards based on the Su-35S for the SM2. They are aiming to replace Irbis-E with a new AESA radar made specifically for Su-35S, so the same upgrade should be possible on SM and SM2 and by extension the MKI while we continue with our own EW suite and other hardware.

If HAL can't deliver, IAF BRDs could take up some of the UPG work as they're doing with the MiG-29s.

I'm not sure why that isn't being pursued. I guess they do not want to be distracted from the overhaul program. Or they are going for a Russian radar in order to derisk the MLU.

When the Russians offered the Irbis-E, they also offered to develop a more advanced radar than what's going on Su-57 for the MKI. So let's see if that's true. They also probably expect India to share some of the R&D burden of GaN.

 

[lmaoxd]

IMO we need the rafales but 32.5 billion for 114 jets with low indigenous percentage is stupid. We need at least 50% and the ICD. otherwise we will be stuck with the low scale production of french weapons forever. source code doesnt matter at all as long as we can integrate the weapons ON INDIAN SOIL without french help.

as for the su30mki i really think they need to go with a dual track upgrade where the structural work is wuickly done by russia while avioncis is quickly done by HAL. We need 24 aircraft a year if we want to have significant productio of the upgraded su30.

 

[Speedster1]

IAF will have to match the decision-
making speed of the partners if they are
to go in for a JV. Import, not so much.

Workshare allocation among the existing GCAP partners is already complete and contracts are already being awarded. India would likely only be a Tier 2 partner. FCAS is a better bet but nothing is concrete yet.

That's also what we want, new avionics. They should have created more modern standards based on the Su-35S for the SM2. They are aiming to replace Irbis-E with a new AESA radar made specifically for Su-35S, so the same upgrade should be possible on SM and SM2 and by extension the MKI while we continue with our own EW suite and other hardware.

Afaik, SM2 is still ongoing in Russia. Any new upgrades will likely only happen much later. The new radar might not meet the IAF's MKI UPG timelines anyways.

At the moment, I'm not sure even the radars on Su-57 have GaN TRMs yet. SM2 would be lower on the list of priorities for the RuAF since it is already going through an upgrade cycle currently.

 

[DerBerserker]

He is being pedantic over 1.3 and 1.4. MKI flies at mach 1.3 using minimum burner. If Rafale does the same without min burner, we have a winner here. In comparison, older jets are stuck at mach 0.9. So Rafale already provides an advantage that makes the Su-57's only trait with a new engine pointless.

The 57's engines also produce a massive amount of electricity, enough to power it multiple radar/sensor arrays, DEWs, and have enough left over. This makes it superior in terms of upgradeability (whereas, we may have to modify the AL-31FP on the 30MKI Super Sukhoi in order to accommodate the Virupaksha).

How would you like to compare the Rafale's functioning radar with a bunch of weights and no software?

They can laugh all they want, but they should use the F-35's ballast weights to build muscle as they laugh.

Laughing and building muscle, that's a good life.

The issue with the F-35 is the same as the Su-57, all glitzy in a brochure, but nothing works yet.

If your choice is between a real-life page 3 model and the cover page of the Playboy magazine, which one would you pick?

The F-35 as it stands today in its latest variant can only handle training missions. They cannot be used in combat. The ones used in combat are just IOC models on the older TR-2 hardware.

The F-35 does face supply chain issues, but it is a proven design, the earlier blocks may not have been too advanced (Blocks 1 and 2), but they still are a technological leap ahead of the Rafale. Block 3~4 is where the F-35 started to become what it was meant to be, and there are Block 3 in service which are fully functional.

Erm, pretty much everything in terms of performance is better with Rafale. Even acceleration and climb. The F-35 struggles against the F-16, whereas the Rafale regularly slaughters the F-16. Even the M2000 has higher acceleration and the Rafale actually has to slow down on the throttle in order to not overshoot it.

Among Western jets, Rafale's only beaten by the F-22 and Typhoon due to its lower thrust rating.

The F-35 is a heavily obfuscated jet, it has the ability to turn a LOT harder than is publicly known. It comes down largely to the CLAWS and stuff like DLC (Direct Lift Control) which are very hard to find info on. Despite that, its design focuses more on energy retention afaik, and its heavily optimised to ensure it only has to engage in a one-circle (though with the F-35, if you're close enough to the enemy, something has gone wrong). The point of the F-35 though, is to be so impossibly hard to detect in the BVR that no amount of performance will save you from when it fires a missile at you, even when it comes in exceedingly close and traps you in its NEZ - this, it does well.

 

[DerBerserker]

At the moment, I'm not sure even the radars on Su-57 have GaN TRMs yet. SM2 would be lower on the list of priorities for the RuAF since it is already going through an upgrade cycle currently.

The N036 Byelka has GaAs TRMs at the moment.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The N036 Byelka has GaAs TRMs at the moment.

Their plan was to move from GaAs AESA radar to Photonics based AESA for M version.

 

[DerBerserker]

Their plan was to move from GaAs AESA radar to Photonics based AESA for M version.

I doubt they've had much success with that.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I doubt they've had much success with that.

They are quite ahead in this field of ROFAR. But having tech and putting it into serial production are two totally different things. Russians have world class tech in form of Su-57, T-14 Armata, Yaseen class SSNs and so on, but they don't seem to produce them in numbers required thanks to the pressure West is exerting on their Mil-aviation and other MIC because of all the bans imposed due to Ukraine war.

 

[batman]

Cheers. I always try to be.

Nice

Ballast Instead of Radar: Lockheed Martin Delivers F-35 Without AN/APG-85 Due to Delays

Due to delays in developing the new AN/APG-85 radar, the United States will receive F-35 aircraft for its air component without operational radars starting in June 2025. Instead, ballast is […]

militarnyi.com

This seems like the newer radar, why can't the use the older one?

The IAF is not interested in Su-57's physical characteristics right now.

Not accurate, its passive stealth is one of the primary reason they want the sukhoi 57.

He is being pedantic over 1.3 and 1.4. MKI flies at mach 1.3 using minimum burner. If Rafale does the same without min burner, we have a winner here. In comparison, older jets are stuck at mach 0.9. So Rafale already provides an advantage that makes the Su-57's only trait with a new engine pointless.

It still a bit of an exaggeration tbh but not much but enough to call out the manufacturer's propoganda

How would you like to compare the Rafale's functioning radar with a bunch of weights and no software?

They can laugh all they want, but they should use the F-35's ballast weights to build muscle as they laugh.

Laughing and building muscle, that's a good life.

The issue with the F-35 is the same as the Su-57, all glitzy in a brochure, but nothing works yet.

If your choice is between a real-life page 3 model and the cover page of the Playboy magazine, which one would you pick?

Didnt the older models have functioning radars though?

The F-35 as it stands today in its latest variant can only handle training missions. They cannot be used in combat. The ones used in combat are just IOC models on the older TR-2 hardware.

And do you think the Rafael is a better platform than the older F35 which is in operational condition?

Erm, pretty much everything in terms of performance is better with Rafale. Even acceleration and climb. The F-35 struggles against the F-16, whereas the Rafale regularly slaughters the F-16. Even the M2000 has higher acceleration and the Rafale actually has to slow down on the throttle in order to not overshoot it.

Among Western jets, Rafale's only beaten by the F-22 and Typhoon due to its lower thrust rating.

Sure its raw performance might be better and it has the advantage in visual range combat but in the era of beyond visual range combat and first strike capability is critical, how can you say the Rafael will be be able to outperform other 5th gen jets especially against other modern jets with long bvr missiles and advanced SAM?

No, the IAF has not bothered with the vanilla Su-57 at all. And the one on offer is the Su-57E, which is trash. They are yet to make an M1E and offer that for evaluations. But the IAF is not interested in either of the Russia-specific models. It's been the case since 2007. They are open to look at the two-seat model, but that's in relation to future capabilities that can rival other future competitors like SCAF/GCAP.

Yeah and the indianised Su57 will be a beast of a jet who will be unrivalled until the foreseeable future.

The US has no part to play in any evaluation the IAF does. They are simply not interested in what is clearly WIP.

I don't believe this is true, sure US has no active role but I'm not gonna believe that there is no back channel talks happening for the su57 and we aren't talking about the Russian version but the indianised one where we can swap and upgrade the electronics and hardware as per our desire which is a huge plus.

Not yet. It will become one eventually, but it's not there yet. Post 6925 covers that little detail.

Soon though.

 

[DerBerserker]

They are quite ahead in this field of ROFAR. But having tech and putting it into serial production are two totally different things. Russians have world class tech in form of Su-57, T-14 Armata, Yaseen class SSNs and so on, but they don't seem to produce them in numbers required thanks to the pressure West is exerting on their Mil-aviation and other MIC because of all the bans imposed due to Ukraine war.

They have been able to step up production of the Su-57 considerably tbh, its never been horribly low past the early stages of production and a few engine issues. But yes, iirc they lack the required semiconductor tech at home to send stuff into serial production for Photonic systems. Even the IMA BK Computer System for the Su-57 utilises a mix of IBM PowerPC 470S's and some Russian chips. That doesn't include their weapons, they use a lot of western chips, especially those from TI smuggled in primarily through China and India. I think any future serial tech will rely on Chinese chips, or more of these imports.

 

[randomradio]

Workshare allocation among the existing GCAP partners is already complete and contracts are already being awarded. India would likely only be a Tier 2 partner. FCAS is a better bet but nothing is concrete yet.

That shouldn't matter. We don't know what the IAF is looking for. We should see some kinda decision made once we sign the Rafale deal.

Afaik, SM2 is still ongoing in Russia. Any new upgrades will likely only happen much later. The new radar might not meet the IAF's MKI UPG timelines anyways.

At the moment, I'm not sure even the radars on Su-57 have GaN TRMs yet. SM2 would be lower on the list of priorities for the RuAF since it is already going through an upgrade cycle currently.

Russia had promised to make a better radar after Byelka for MKI, so their first GaN radar could go on Su-35 instead.

The MKIs are meant for Russian upgrade after MKI MLU takes off. HAL wants until 2040 to deliver the first 84. Russia should be able to deliver another batch of 84 by 2040 even after starting later than HAL.

 

[randomradio]

The 57's engines also produce a massive amount of electricity, enough to power it multiple radar/sensor arrays, DEWs, and have enough left over. This makes it superior in terms of upgradeability (whereas, we may have to modify the AL-31FP on the 30MKI Super Sukhoi in order to accommodate the Virupaksha).

As per DRDO, Virupaksha has been designed to use the same power as Bars. PESA are extremely power hungry, their efficiency can go as low as 20% in some real world cases, whereas GaN AESAs have greater than 50% efficiency.

The F-35 does face supply chain issues, but it is a proven design, the earlier blocks may not have been too advanced (Blocks 1 and 2), but they still are a technological leap ahead of the Rafale. Block 3~4 is where the F-35 started to become what it was meant to be, and there are Block 3 in service which are fully functional.


The F-35 is a heavily obfuscated jet, it has the ability to turn a LOT harder than is publicly known. It comes down largely to the CLAWS and stuff like DLC (Direct Lift Control) which are very hard to find info on. Despite that, its design focuses more on energy retention afaik, and its heavily optimised to ensure it only has to engage in a one-circle (though with the F-35, if you're close enough to the enemy, something has gone wrong). The point of the F-35 though, is to be so impossibly hard to detect in the BVR that no amount of performance will save you from when it fires a missile at you, even when it comes in exceedingly close and traps you in its NEZ - this, it does well.

Nah, the Americans are very open about it. They openly say the F-35 is not designed for performance, and that any situation where they end up having to use agility to fight would mean someone somewhere screwed up.

Rafale, Typhoon, and F-22 are in a league of their own. If nothing else changes on F5, and comes with additional thrust, Rafale will achieve near-F-22 performance. It will be able to climb above 340 m/s, close to F-22's 350 m/s and will be able to supercruise at mach 1.6. Even if there's some slight increase in empty weight, it will still remain second best when it comes to performance.

The F-35 is more comparable to the SH, which isn't very impressive.

While stealth will keep the F-35 alive against older radars, new bi/multistatic radars have been designed to defeat shaping-based stealth. The F-35 will require EW to survive at that point. Ground radars are already multistatic, and Rafale F4 now comes with it. Pretty soon all fighters will be able to detect the F-35 from BVR ranges.

 

[Speedster1]

Russia had promised to make a better radar after Byelka for MKI, so their first GaN radar could go on Su-35 instead.

The MKIs are meant for Russian upgrade after MKI MLU takes off. HAL wants until 2040 to deliver the first 84. Russia should be able to deliver another batch of 84 by 2040 even after starting later than HAL.

I'd much rather pvt Indian cos like Data Patterns get a chance to prove their worth.

They already have working prototypes/bench test models (TRL 3) of radars comparable to Virupaksha + EW pods from Axiscades, et all. The rest of the avionics (MFDs, HUD, mission computers, FCC) could be common to HALs UPG variant.

Why bailout Russian industry at the expense of our own? We owe them no favours.