India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration
- Thread starter Tatvamasi
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You wanted a 1000 kN engine which itself is a r**arded premise. So I fed into your delusions further.
IMO, The best approach for developing the 6th generation is to work on the Ghatak, utilizing double and triple engines along with all available technologies. The design is already aligned with 6th generation standards, now we need to concentrate on data processing with AI, hybrid scramjet technology, 3D thrust vectoring, and passive tracking technologies or signal intelligence. You won't require any external support to complete this project. Once you're prepared, you can simply incorporate a powerful engine for the manned version; IMO this is the best possible way to make our technologies evolve for the 6th generation manned aircraft.
We will have to accelerate AMCA and integrate either with gcap or fcas architecture, if we really want a pliable 6th gen aircraft system. Personally I would prefer if we go for GCAP because Japan is involved and it has a far tighter schedule than the French.
Your idea of having multiple engines using the Ghatak is what I was also thinking about.
We need to just produce the kaveri 1.0 and make it certified. The iranians make do with 60's tech to produce f-5 copies, what I'm saying is we can use kaveri in two variant afterburning version and non afterburning version. We need Ghatak which would be a single engined and then build up on it and make a twin engined Ghatak and a quad engined Ghatak which could be b21 raider class. Similarly for the afterburning version we can make a Turkish kizlelma copy
And build upon it and make a twin engined manned and unnmanned kizlelma and a quad engined kaveri stack for a supersonic bomber on the lines of the tu-22m.
A quad engined supersonic missile/bomber with an uttam aesa radar powered by the persent Kaveri would have a full thrust output of 324 kN.
The tu-22 has a similar wet thrust output of 320 kN with its two 160 kN RD-7M2 engines.
We solve our entire bomber, drone with one engine. The import air force can then focus on procuring su-57, rafales and FCAS/GCAp without any problem.
The f-404 has ended up becoming a huge liability and kaveri needs to be expedited we anyway constantly lose aircrafts due to crashes anyway.
That is actually the plan.
The difference is this larger indigenous program will be led ADA instead of ADE.
I simply call it 7th gen, since the propulsion system is next gen, even if majority of the features are 6th gen or even 6++.
And given the timeline it's expected in, I doubt it's gonna be manned. It comes with too many compromises. We are talking about 30 years from now after all.
I do hope any 6th gen we get is largely imported instead of attempting to sideline ADA. €25B is far too much money for a SCAF JV.
Yep, GCAP is the fastest option. But integrating it with our IADS is not gonna be easy. At least the French would have done some work via Rafale, and it will be easier to integrate SCAF with our IADS post the Rafale experience.
In the end it depends on how much we want to invest and what sort of workshare we will get. GCAP gets us nothing, while SCAF is still up for negotiations.
Let's see what Germany does.
All this hype about joining FCAS or GCAP.
At the end of the day, India is going to buy something off the shelf.... either way
We are not going to be part of any development process anyway.
Does FCAS or GCAP even need our money? Money share and work share has already been done for GCAP.
FCAS will fall apart. French will come up with the upgraded version of Rafale F5 which can interact with drones. That's it.
The plan of utilizing AMCA for 6th-gen is good, but it will bring the same risk, the ENGINE trap. The US might delay the program by 5 to 10 years; otherwise, we are good with a gradual approach from AMCA. Furthermore, the AMCA shaping is not in sync with 6th-generation shaping, and the autonomous technology will not be that refined if we use AMCA when compared to the Ghatak autonomous AI. The gradual approach should be from GHTAK for 6th-gen aircraft. France got lots of input from Dassault nEuroN as a foundation for the FCAS.
If we wish to initiate something independently with various iterations of the 6th-gen aircraft, we can proceed with Kaveri 1.x, 2.x, KDE, and GHATAK.
We need 400kn engine anyway. May not for fighter jets,but if we plans for transport aircraft development.
I've always seen this as a choice between F-47 and GCAP in limited numbers, nothing more than 3 squadrons inducted after 2035 with an F-35I style configuration.
GCAP is already done and dusted. The same if SCAF goes through with Germany. In both cases, I can see us investing 5% and get some kinda workshare that allows some Indianization and integration with our own drones and network.
Plus I think the F-47 is the better option compared to GCAP even if it's downgraded. Even then, it's likely to be more advanced and more survivable against Chinese jets. It's not suitable for local production though, unlike GCAP.
Assuming SCAF collapses and India works with France instead, the IAF won't be able to justify limited workshare via a 50-50 JV. We will have to spend the same cost as buying 63 F-47s, ie, ~$30B, for R&D and then spend another $50B producing them after 15 years of R&D, effectively 20 years later. It will take so long that the IAF will still have to justify a stopgap import that will further add to the cost.
The way I see it, ADA should be given a simpler set of objectives for 6th gen, like a modified AMCA NG without fins and tail, while going for an Espadon JV with France and importing either the F-47 or GCAP as stopgap. ADA's core 6th gen research can go into Espadon.
Whether we get into SCAF R&D or local production, ADA's likely to get sidelined for the core 6th gen requirement anyway.
AMCA's definitive engine will not be American.
The front-end is fine. Only the center and rear fuselages need some modifications and a new wing design, and it can be done. Check out the FB-22.
With TVC, we can eliminate the fins too. AMCA's definitive engine will be upgraded to 6th gen VCE with more power.
We plan on using FBL in AMCA, it's foundational for advanced autonomous operations with drones. The same thing's gonna be used on Ghatak too.
Don't let BNS catch you saying this. It's actually the plan.
While we will develop next gen drones after Ghatak, we will also simultaneously use a big bang approach for next gen using AMCA's 6th gen engine.
US will never sell F47 to India as we have S400 systems.
We are planning to buy another 4 S400 units. India will not go away from S400 either.
F47 will not enter mass production before 2040. I know this may be shocking. But look up 'Mover and Gonky' podcast and how they talk about F47. US fighter pilots are also not hopeful about Boeing. They prefer Lockheed Martin.
By 2040, China will the only nation with 6th gen fighters in considerable numbers. Even this is a big if imo.
The S-400 isn't a problem. When it came to Turkey, I don't know why but people are not realizing it's a Turdogan problem. They have no problems selling the F-35 to India. Any potential F-47 sale to India is a political question; current + long term relationship and strings attached. Overall, yeah, it's the least likely among the three, but when it comes to smaller numbers, it's the best option.
All these 6th gen programs are currently pies in the sky. But the 2040 fear is unfounded. They have decided to use proven technologies instead of experimental ones like they did on the F-35. The airframe has likely already been validated via a TD and digital twining and avionics are likely to be evolutionary upgrades.
When it comes to China, they will get PLAAF's J-36 operational by then. I'm not sure if it's 6th gen though. But the J-50, very likely meant for PLAN, could be one. They are definitely working on a J-XX and a JH-XX for PLAAF. Both countries will have fully operational 6th gen before 2035. I mean, the IAF wouldn't be in such a hurry for 6th gen if that wasn't the case. It's also why I'm focusing on F-47 and GCAP rather than on SCAF.
bro f47 is not coming LMAO. We are not even buying the F35, LMAO F47. GCAP is honestly the better option. I think we need to abandon the option of going toe to toe generation wise with china. Even china with their massive industrial economy didnt try this with the US. We need to keep our heads down and make any invasion costly. The difference btw 5th and 6th gen is not as large as the difference btw 4th and 5th. especially considering the rise of CCAs
To buy F35, they wanted us to buy F16.
F 16 itself with make in India ,
Parikar wanted to buy 80 % capabilities of Rafale at 60 % cost. Didn't materialize .
F35 autonomy is the issue .
How will US offer F 47 and what autonomy will we get.
Wrt SCAF, if we sign engine deal with French, it ll make sense to go in for SCAF. So that SCAF will have more local content.
GCAP should be considered only if Rolls Royce JV engine is opted .
UAE didn't sign F5 Rafale development. Is this opportunity for India ? Like TEDBF - F5 design.
With the exception of the F-35 thing, I had pretty much the same opinion until the IAF asked for a SCAF JV. I thought Rafale (particularly F5) + AMCA would be enough until ADA delivered next gen after 2050, with 2-3 squadrons of F-47 or GCAP functioning as a stopgap, even the Su-57 for a while.
We're not buying the F-35 'cause it's not an ASF, alongside a multitude of other factors. It was seriously considered by both the IAF and IN initially. After it went into development hell and costs spiralled, it fell out of favor in India, even after India received the STA-1 status that gave us the regulatory permission to import it.
But now that we are buying majority F4 and AMCA is likely to get delayed, a stopgap solution has become more important.
As for the F-47, the Americans are said to quickly follow it up with more advanced variants for later. With the F-47 expected to begin serial production in 2029 and a 6-year production run for 185 jets would mean a repeat of F-22's logistics woes, with F-47 production run ending in 2035. So opening up the F-47 for exports makes sense since future variants are likely to follow it soon anyway and it would allow the line to remain open for longer.
Pretty interesting stuff here.
F-47 Fighter Program Could See Multiple Versions Built In Increments
Top U.S. officials that had a major hand in the NGAD fighter program say it was designed to be built in iterative increments, not just as a single configuration. Former Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, Technology & Logistics Andrew Hunter discussed “Increments” of NGAD...
www.twz.com
Things would have changed a lot in 2035 too. India would be a major global power and an economic superpower. China would have outmatched the US militarily by then too, at least in terms of numbers. Russia would be headed in the same direction. And Australia and Japan would be relatively weaker compared to today. So the Americans have no choice but to get as close as possible to India or risk getting isolated themselves, while competing with Europe and Russia.
Anyway, if the goal is to raise costs for China, we need some level of parity in certain areas. Whle the army is the most important component for that, they still need reliable air support, and some 6th gens hiding among 4th gens could give us that. What's ironic is we could end up with 6th gen jets before AMCA.
F-16s for F-35s was merely a business tactic. They changed their tune once that possibility ended, and are now offering it straightaway. I had pointed this out a decade ago.
It depends on the timeframe. GCAP will be ready 5 years before SCAF. If the IAF is willing to wait until 2045 for an opertionally proven jet, then that's fine. GCAP will become operationally proven by 2040. F-47 before 2037.
Good point there, but there's no relation. Both use different engines.
No. Rafale F4 and F5 will share the same airframe. We will get to manufacture T-REX's modified parts too if the F5 order is large enough. There's nothing more we are gonna get beyond the ToT contract. The Emiratis were just dumb enough to fall for it and realized it before it's too late. We learned that lesson via FGFA, but plan on repeating it with SCAF and GCAP.
TEDBF will have to be as indigenous as possible, it's the stepping stone for our carrier aviation dreams. If partnership was necessary, we would have developed a more advanced aircraft with foreign assistance. The goal is 75% indigenization, but the end result could be well above 80% due to the switch to AMCA's engine.
Dude,be carefull what you wish for. Last time you were asking everyone that when will india take action and you got May 7.
