Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

[Aniruddha]

If there is any truth to recent news stories about France offering Suffren SSN tech to India, a Batch 2 Kalavari program may well become a conduit for ToT and related budget allocation.

Plus the IN is interested in a new sub launched LACM for which a RfI is currently out. More than likely, we'll end up with the Scalp Naval to equip both the Type 214I and Kalvari classes.

TLAM is a non starter for political reasons and Kalibr won't be available/compatible for integration on Western-origin boats.

So we may yet see an order for B2 Kalvari going through, imo.

I would prefer DRDO developed SLCM over something like SCALP Naval as we can modify it as we like to ensure it's a standard fit across Kilos, Type 209, Scorpenes and future P75I subs.
It will also simplify logistics rather than having a plethora of sub launched CM.

 

[Speedster1]

I would prefer DRDO developed SLCM over something like SCALP Naval as we can modify it as we like to ensure it's a standard fit across Kilos, Type 209, Scorpenes and future P75I subs.
It will also simplify logistics rather than having a plethora of sub launched CM.

The IN probably wants a stopgap until SLCM is fully certified. Same dual track 'buy and build' approach.

Incidentally, the SLCM uses a similar capsule launch mechanism as the Scalp Naval. So there *might* be scope for NG consulting on design optimization et all for SLCM.

 

[YoungWolf]

If there is any truth to recent news stories about France offering Suffren SSN tech to India, a Batch 2 Kalavari program may well become a conduit for ToT and related budget allocation.

Plus the IN is interested in a new sub launched LACM for which a RfI is currently out. More than likely, we'll end up with the Scalp Naval to equip both the Type 214I and Kalvari classes.

TLAM is a non starter for political reasons and Kalibr won't be available/compatible for integration on Western-origin boats.

So we may yet see an order for B2 Kalvari going through, imo.

Given how massive the price tag seems to be for the Kalvari B2 (>3.6bn US$ for 3 boats), I honestly don't think the IN will go for that. Rather, they may consider a follow-on order of 3 more P75I (similar price, a gen ahead in terms of tech probably) which will make more sense. The time for ordering Kalvari B2 of 3 (or more) boats was 2018-19, when the last of the Kalvari B1 were in final stages of construction.

 

[Speedster1]

Given how massive the price tag seems to be for the Kalvari B2 (>3.6bn US$ for 3 boats), I honestly don't think the IN will go for that. Rather, they may consider a follow-on order of 3 more P75I (similar price, a gen ahead in terms of tech probably) which will make more sense. The time for ordering Kalvari B2 of 3 (or more) boats was 2018-19, when the last of the Kalvari B1 were in final stages of construction.

60% of the cost is IC including AIP, CMS, IPMS, etc. Then there is the inflation factor. I'd say the French would be more willing to negotiate on pricing now that we have an alternative sub line.

Otoh, we can't put all our eggs in the German basket either.

Given the fuss they made over our oil trade with Russia, spares and support cannot always be guaranteed. Besides, we might still need French LACM as a backup for DRDO SLCM.

 

[Speedster1]

Cont'd.. we have also paid NG a lot to integrate Varunastra/EHWT on the Kalvari. A Batch 2 build run would help amortize costs.

 

[lmaoxd]

Well if its true then i hope they build the AIp from the start especially now that the AIP is certified and is getting installed onto the same class of sub. MDL did expand their facilities to have upto 11 subs so i assume they can do this anyway.

anyone know the status of the P76 class? last i heard it was L&T with the design. I hope they use their katupalli yard for the contruction. We need 3-4 shipyards capable of subs if we want to hold the IOR

 

[YoungWolf]

Cont'd.. we have also paid NG a lot to integrate Varunastra/EHWT on the Kalvari. A Batch 2 build run would help amortize costs.

Seems to me the only plausible reason for batch 2. Regarding SLCM, an MBDA weapon should integrate rather easily with a TKMS platform.

60% of the cost is IC including AIP, CMS, IPMS, etc. Then there is the inflation factor. I'd say the French would be more willing to negotiate on pricing now that we have an alternative sub line.

Even taking this into consideration, the price is pretty steep for a sub which is ultimately a generation behind the one we're set to acquire.

Otoh, we can't put all our eggs in the German basket either.

P75I has the welcome and unintentional benefit of not putting all the eggs in the French basket.

Given the fuss they made over our oil trade with Russia, spares and support cannot always be guaranteed. Besides, we might still need French LACM as a backup for DRDO SLCM.

Honestly, nothing major. The "fuss" they kicked up for us buying Russian oil was mostly performative IMO, coz the bilateral relation on the whole was roughly on the same level (2 high profile state visits within 16 months to India).

I honestly don't see a justifiable way of paying >1.2bn for an AIP (and LIB) equipped Scorpene.

 

[jmaxwell_]

The sad part is that India paid billions and still doesn't have ToT. China paid zero, but has the complete blueprints and IPR to build their own version.

 

[Speedster1]

Even taking this into consideration, the price is pretty steep for a sub which is
ultimately a generation behind the one we're set to acquire.

We bought the circa 2005 version Scorpene. In the last 20 yrs, the design has evolved significantly in terms of electronics, endurance, acoustic signatures.

A lot of the tech going into T214 is unproven like the new TKMS AIP, for example. We need a fall back option/risk reduction strategy in case of delays.

The Kilos and T209s are anyways on their last legs. P76 is still on the drawing board. I'd say Kalvari B2 would be a far better option than buying used Ru Kilo class.

 

[Bon Plan]

If there is any truth to recent news stories about France offering Suffren SSN tech to India, a Batch 2 Kalavari program may well become a conduit for ToT and related budget allocation.

With the Australian Barracuda blow, I think France decided to smoth its position about SSN. Specialy with a reliable partner as India.
So why not ?

 

[Sathya]

I think we need to make threads on specific decade basis... So that members can follow and avoid certain threads...

I have had it enough with MMRCA and Tejas..

I can't follow 2 decade acquisition program s.. anymore..

 

[aditya g]

Does mazagaon have capacity to manufacture scorpenes and uboats simulataneusly?

 

[Speedster1]

With the Australian Barracuda blow, I think France decided to smoth its position about SSN. Specialy with a reliable partner as India.
So why not ?

The press stmt issued during Macron's India visit in Feb only had a passing reference to subs. Our media may be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Granted, France has helped Brazil adapt the Scorpene design into SSN (Riechuelo class) but you steered clear of sharing reactor tech. So unless there has been a policy change, I doubt we're getting Suffren class blueprints.

Heck, NG flatly refused to share design validation data on the Scorpene with MDL. Suffren tech would obviously be highly classified.

Thales sonars, combat mgmt systems, Scalp Naval are possibilities, though.

 

[lmaoxd]

Does mazagaon have capacity to manufacture scorpenes and uboats simulataneusly?

I think so. Like i said they did expand their capability upto 11 subs and 10 warships at once. So ideally they should be able tomake it all at once.

 

[babablacksheep]

https://www.scribd.com/document/545824387/Kormilitsin-and-Khalizev-The-Theory-of-Submarine-Design-2001

 

[South block]

https://www.scribd.com/document/545824387/Kormilitsin-and-Khalizev-The-Theory-of-Submarine-Design-2001

View attachment 50950

Nuclear submarine always have an advantage over conventional submarines. What they don't have is low dB level stealth of SSKs if SSKs are designed properly. No matter what you do & how quite you try to make your nuke sub, an SSK can always be made much quieter due to it's inherit design ( less moving parts ) compare to SSNs. SSK can work great at choke points like Strait of Malacca but other than that there usefulness are limited & against a formidable surface flotilla, it's basically one way suicide mission after first shot is fired from the SSK.

 

[lmaoxd]

Nuclear submarine always have an advantage over conventional submarines. What they don't have is low dB level stealth of SSKs if SSKs are designed properly. No matter what you do & how quite you try to make your nuke sub, an SSK can always be made much quieter due to it's inherit design ( less moving parts ) compare to SSNs. SSK can work great at choke points like Strait of Malacca but other than that there usefulness are limited & against a formidable surface flotilla, it's basically one way suicide mission after first shot is fired from the SSK.

SSKs are useful for the coastal defence. If India develops the andaman and nicobar for submarine ops then SSKs are enough to safegaurd the mainland. SSNs are needed for deep Indian ocean control.

 

[babablacksheep]

it's basically one way suicide mission after first shot is fired from the SSK

Depends on the enemy capabilities, and lot of other factors.

+ SSK's are getting bigger&more powerful, not equivalent to a ssn, but can act in a much larger area.

 

[Bon Plan]

The press stmt issued during Macron's India visit in Feb only had a passing reference to subs. Our media may be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Granted, France has helped Brazil adapt the Scorpene design into SSN (Riechuelo class) but you steered clear of sharing reactor tech. So unless there has been a policy change, I doubt we're getting Suffren class blueprints.

Heck, NG flatly refused to share design validation data on the Scorpene with MDL. Suffren tech would obviously be highly classified.

Thales sonars, combat mgmt systems, Scalp Naval are possibilities, though.

One interesting asset of the french nuc subs is that they used low enriched uranium.... That probably helps.

Richuelo brazilian sub was launched far earlier than the Australian Barracuda fiasco. Things evolved since.

 

[Speedster1]

One interesting asset of the french nuc subs is that they used low enriched uranium.... That probably helps.

Richuelo brazilian sub was launched far earlier than the Australian Barracuda fiasco. Things evolved since.

I doubt France would ever offer us reactor tech, even if our boats were LEU fuelled. But that's not the point.

I'm saying the Suffren design would be off the table as a classified item.

Help with pumpjet propulsion, hydrodynamic model testing, digital modeling of interior machinery and crew spaced is perhaps all that we can hope for + sonar et al.

Given that your next-gen SSBN is an evolution of the Suffren design, France would naturally want to prevent tech leaks to any 3rd parties.