Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

[redpanda]

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armstransfers.sipri.org

Thank you. So, no formal agreement yet. Selected just means they have filed a request. Looks like this is based upon that post by Pakistani government handle which later got taken down.

In June 2025, international de-fence outlets quoted unnamed Pakistani officials claiming China had offered up to 40 jets.

Yet no agreement ever surfaced, Beijing stayed quiet, and later Defence Minister Khawaja Asif publicly dismissed the talk as media speculation.

 

[lmaoxd]

Thank you. So, no formal agreement yet. Selected just means they have filed a request. Looks like this is based upon that post by Pakistani government handle which later got taken down.



View attachment 50353

ah then its like 2 years off

 

[Rajput Lion]

KJ-500 has to deal with the same threat, the S-400, which it cannot. The lack of depth means they have to operate on the fringes of the Af-Pak border. They are not going to shoot down anything from there. And the IAF is working with Russia to further increase the range of the S-400.

They have seen what S-400 can do and will use KJ-500 accordingly. KJ-500's has much bigger range(~500kms) and much better coverage(360°) vs Saab 2000 Erieye (300° & range about 350kms). So, they can operate very well from their edges or even from their south. J-35AE when paired with KJ-500 is a lethal combo for us. That's why we are buying Su-57s as their counter.

As for J-35, we already have multistatic capabilities on the S-400 and MRSAM, and the upcoming HPRs (essentially the MFSTAR) will further boost detection range, with the Surya VHF acting as a stealth spotlight.

I've already written before about our "anti-stealth" grid. So I know about all of these. But fact is, when coupled with dedicated EW aircraft(likes of which PAF is likely to procure), J-35 is going to be our gravest threat from PAF side. Nothing can deny this.

The only real threat to the IAF is if the PAF inducts 6th gen jets with multispectral stealth. We currently have the best air defenses in the world. And we are only a few years away from matching the world in terms of EW and networking too.

Even 4.5 gen J-10CE with PL-15s is a threat to IAF and J-35AE will accelerate our threat perception even more. PAF would get 6th gen jets as gift from China by the end of next decade.

The Rafale itself is likely to be more stealthy than the J-35 via AC, so why fret? CSIR calls it RCSR.

You, I and @Parthu have done this before but after last year's skirmish, don't think ACT in Rafale works as better as it is advertised. Real ACT would come online in 6th gen jets that have transmitters embedded in their skin all-across the airframe and huge computing power to create instantaneous copy signals. Rafale's SPECTRA with twin canard root mounted transmitters can only reduce the frontal spikes to a degree. The fact that multiple Rafales were targeted by PAF fighters & SAMs was exact proof of that.

 

[South block]

We currently have the best air defenses in the world. And we are only a few years away from matching the world in terms of EW and networking too.

The Rafale itself is likely to be more stealthy than the J-35 via AC, so why fret? CSIR calls it RCSR.

You should have stayed in hiatus. The forum was having a far better, saner non fantasy discussion at your absence.

 

[babablacksheep]

You should have stayed in hiatus. The forum was having a far better, saner non fantasy discussion at your absence.

It also brought back that whole FBW vs FBL discussion we were having.

After several days of back-and-forth, I realized I wasn’t getting through — his beliefs seemed pretty locked in, and I still have no idea what sources he’s pulling from (many of them clearly inaccurate or misinterpreted acc. to what i know ). At that point I decided it wasn’t worth continuing and just stepped away from the conversation.

That said, the confidence he has in his position is honestly impressive. He’s very quick at generating replies, even when they mix partial truths with significant inaccuracies or outright contradictions.

 

[randomradio]

Their F-16 B52s are quite contemporary with AIM-120 C5. The rest of the fleet is older model A/B but those were put through a limited upg via TAI some years ago. As per Vishnu Som, the new comms + SLEP upgrades will keep the PAF Viper fleet competitive well into the 2040s.

I'd say they are already comparable to the M29 UPG, except the latter doesn't have a modern BVR.

The F-16Cs were configured in the 2000s, a decade before the Mig-29 and M2000 upgrades and need significant software updates. In terms of hardware, they only appear to be contemporaries, but the real world impact of those differences will be signifcant, especially when it comes to EA and ECCM.

In 2019, the Mig-29s BVR was insufficient but was made up by 2025 with the RVV-SD.

The Chinese are likely shifting focus to the PL-16, now that the PL-15 tech is compromised. The JF-17 will likely launch them passively via midcourse updates from the J-10C. Similar to our MKI + LCA Mk1/A playbook.

Same problem as before, S-400.

Their biggest headache now is dealing with India's air defenses and long range fires. So those counters must be explored. So J-35, PL-16, all this is irrelevant without PAF getting their own multilayer, multidomain IADS, advanced EW, and long range fires.

So the focus should be on PAF's future SAMs, EW assets, multispectral stealth aircraft, and short, medium, and long range CMs and BMs. All their existing and alternative upcoming assets are useless without these.

Ironically, right now, LCA Mk1A's Israeli radar outranges MKI by a bit, and Uttam Mk1 (GaAs) outranges it by 25%. Gotta get that Virupaksha upgrade.

Our AWACS fleet is stretched atm and we are too reliant on IACCS/ADGES for supporting air ops.

What we have is enough for the Pak border at the very least. Let's see where our 18 new AWACS plan goes.

 

[randomradio]

bro what? your just being delusional at this point.

Rafale's frontal RCS without weapons while active cancelation is activated is that of a sparrow, as told by Dassault's VP Revellin-Falcoz a decade ago. It drops by a magnitude when carrying weapons. But this is an old figure back from 2018 and is constantly upgradeable. So we should see further improvements on F4 and F5.

 

[randomradio]

Thank you. So, no formal agreement yet. Selected just means they have filed a request. Looks like this is based upon that post by Pakistani government handle which later got taken down.



View attachment 50353

It's easier to believe they have ordered it.

 

[randomradio]

They have seen what S-400 can do and will use KJ-500 accordingly. KJ-500's has much bigger range(~500kms) and much better coverage(360°) vs Saab 2000 Erieye (300° & range about 350kms). So, they can operate very well from their edges or even from their south. J-35AE when paired with KJ-500 is a lethal combo for us. That's why we are buying Su-57s as their counter.

Detection range isn't the issue, the missile's range is the issue. Any target will be too far away for the PL-16.

What they are dealing with is not Rafale or MKI, they are dealing with Brahmos and Rampage and LORA. So what's their counter to such missiles?

What's the use of being able to shoot down MKI from 300 km away when MKI will fire LORA from 400 km away?

If we take out their HQs, comm nodes, weapons and fuel depots etc at long range, what will a few J-35s and AWACS do? They will have to land in a few hours too.

I've already written before about our "anti-stealth" grid. So I know about all of these. But fact is, when coupled with dedicated EW aircraft(likes of which PAF is likely to procure), J-35 is going to be our gravest threat from PAF side. Nothing can deny this.

Even 4.5 gen J-10CE with PL-15s is a threat to IAF and J-35AE will accelerate our threat perception even more. PAF would get 6th gen jets as gift from China by the end of next decade.

You, I and @Parthu have done this before but after last year's skirmish, don't think ACT in Rafale works as better as it is advertised. Real ACT would come online in 6th gen jets that have transmitters embedded in their skin all-across the airframe and huge computing power to create instantaneous copy signals. Rafale's SPECTRA with twin canard root mounted transmitters can only reduce the frontal spikes to a degree. The fact that multiple Rafales were targeted by PAF fighters & SAMs was exact proof of that.

The physics is the same.

As I pointed out before, the PAF could only target the towed decoys.

'Best deception ever seen': US F-16 pilot reveals how a 30 kg device fooled Pakistan into thinking it downed a Rafale

Indian Air Force reportedly used AI during Operation Sindoor in May 2025. The Rafale's X-Guard system neutralised Pakistani air threats. This AI-powered towed decoy jams enemy radar. It mimics Rafale's radar signals, confusing enemy missiles. The X-Guard is reusable and provides real-time...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Targeted active cancelation. You don't show yourself to radar and seeker, but you maximise the standout effect of the decoy. And even with both radar and seeker carrying GaN, which can create distinct radar images meant to tell aircraft apart from decoy, neither could see the Rafales and instead homed in on the decoys. This is what led to the PAF claiming they shot down many Rafales, when in fact all they were seeing were decoys on their screens.

The F-35's stealth + towed decoy also works the same way.

And you cannot do this without stealth 'cause as the GaN seeker gets closer it will spot the aircraft and change targets.

This technique is impossible on non-stealth aircraft, especially against GaN.

 

[randomradio]

You should have stayed in hiatus. The forum was having a far better, saner non fantasy discussion at your absence.

Both claims made by people in the highest of offices. They are not my claims.

The first one by an IAF Air Marshal. The second one by VP of Dassault.

Israeli BMD was proven to be the best around since Iran started shooting at it, and we use next generation systems from Israel based on far more advanced radars. There currently isn't a better SAM than the MRSAM globally either. And the S-400 is now proven in multiple war zones. All three are now combat proven. And of course our other SAMs like Akash have also become combat proven.

Op Sindoor proved the second claim. What it did cannot be done by non-stealthy aircraft. The F-35 is the only other operational alternative today.

The forum goes 5-10 years ahead when I show up, hence the disconnect. Almost all my predictions from before 5-10 years have come true already.

But what do you know about this topic?

 

[randomradio]

It also brought back that whole FBW vs FBL discussion we were having.

After several days of back-and-forth, I realized I wasn’t getting through — his beliefs seemed pretty locked in, and I still have no idea what sources he’s pulling from (many of them clearly inaccurate or misinterpreted acc. to what i know ). At that point I decided it wasn’t worth continuing and just stepped away from the conversation.

That said, the confidence he has in his position is honestly impressive. He’s very quick at generating replies, even when they mix partial truths with significant inaccuracies or outright contradictions.

FBL is necessary to enable laser communications between different air and space assets. This allows terabit speeds.

Whereas the F-35 is still stuck with electrical interfaces.

You need to do far more research on FBL.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Detection range isn't the issue, the missile's range is the issue. Any target will be too far away for the PL-16.

The issue is VLO stealth of J-35AE, which can sneak in despite all our imtegrated Air Defense and may launch PL-16s from well within its NEZ.

What they are dealing with is not Rafale or MKI, they are dealing with Brahmos and Rampage and LORA. So what's their counter to such missiles?

Take out both Rafale and MKI before they release their payload, 'cause they now know very well that there ain't no stopping BrahMos

What's the use of being able to shoot down MKI from 300 km away when MKI will fire LORA from 400 km away?

Point taken but any MKI shotdown is huge loss to IAF and huge gain to PAF.

If we take out their HQs, comm nodes, weapons and fuel depots etc at long range, what will a few J-35s and AWACS do? They will have to land in a few hours too.

That's a real issue for them but still doesn't undermine the stealth capabilities J-35AE brings along with itself.

The physics is the same.

As I pointed out before, the PAF could only target the towed decoys.

'Best deception ever seen': US F-16 pilot reveals how a 30 kg device fooled Pakistan into thinking it downed a Rafale

Indian Air Force reportedly used AI during Operation Sindoor in May 2025. The Rafale's X-Guard system neutralised Pakistani air threats. This AI-powered towed decoy jams enemy radar. It mimics Rafale's radar signals, confusing enemy missiles. The X-Guard is reusable and provides real-time...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Targeted active cancelation. You don't show yourself to radar and seeker, but you maximise the standout effect of the decoy. And even with both radar and seeker carrying GaN, which can create distinct radar images meant to tell aircraft apart from decoy, neither could see the Rafales and instead homed in on the decoys. This is what led to the PAF claiming they shot down many Rafales, when in fact all they were seeing were decoys on their screens.

And yet we lost one Rafale.

The F-35's stealth + towed decoy also works the same way.

F-35A with ALE-70 or in future BriteCloud expendable decoys is/would be far more effective than Rafale cause:

And you cannot do this without stealth 'cause as the GaN seeker gets closer it will spot the aircraft and change targets.

Precisely and Rafale as @vstol Jockey said is very prominent on radar with EFTs and external weapons.

This technique is impossible on non-stealth aircraft, especially against GaN.

Yes. And still Rafale is not stealth, but J-35AE is.

 

[randomradio]

More on active cancelation fro CSIR-NAL.



What all those words mean:


The conclusion they reached.



And now, they are working on active cancelation for incorporation into Indian aircraft. AMCA, TEDBF, Ghatak, and LCA Mk2, all 4 can be equipped with it.

And this bit is very, very important.
"As compared to passive cancellation of scattered power, active RCS reduction is more feasible and practical as it requires less power, and has got cost-effective advantages."

What it means is active cancelation is easier than shaping-based stealth. That's why Rafale went after this route.

So my fantasy is an actual program is many countries.

Here, start reading, if you have full access.

Hema Singh

CSIR - National Aerospace Laboratories, Bangalore, India - Cited by 800 - Computational Electromagnetics - Phased array - Radar cross section

scholar.google.com

Another one:

Dr. Balamati Choudhury

Scientist, CSIR-national Aerospace Laboratories - Cited by 945 - soft computing - terahertz - metamaterial - ray tracing - antenna

scholar.google.com

These topics are too complex for this forum. So the obvious lack of understanding is natural.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

More on active cancelation fro CSIR-NAL.

View attachment 50363

What all those words mean:
View attachment 50364

The conclusion they reached.

View attachment 50365

And now, they are working on active cancelation for incorporation into Indian aircraft. AMCA, TEDBF, Ghatak, and LCA Mk2, all 4 can be equipped with it.

And this bit is very, very important.
"As compared to passive cancellation of scattered power, active RCS reduction is more feasible and practical as it requires less power, and has got cost-effective advantages."

What it means is active cancelation is easier than shaping-based stealth. That's why Rafale went after this route.

So my fantasy is an actual program is many countries.

Here, start reading, if you have full access.

Hema Singh

CSIR - National Aerospace Laboratories, Bangalore, India - Cited by 800 - Computational Electromagnetics - Phased array - Radar cross section

scholar.google.com

Another one:

Dr. Balamati Choudhury

Scientist, CSIR-national Aerospace Laboratories - Cited by 945 - soft computing - terahertz - metamaterial - ray tracing - antenna

scholar.google.com

These topics are too complex for this forum. So the obvious lack of understanding is natural.

So we need MK 2 to actually believe that this Technological advancement
( Active Cancellation)
Has been Accomplished

 

[Speedster1]

The F-16Cs were configured in the 2000s, a decade before the Mig-29 and M2000 upgrades and need significant software updates. In terms of hardware, they only appear to be contemporaries, but the real world impact of those differences will be signifcant, especially when it comes to EA and ECCM.

In terms of radar and EW, Pakistan's older F-16A/Bs are on par with the newer B52+ model ac. Incidentally, upgrades (AN/APG-68V9 + AIDEWS) to those airframes were initiated around the same time as the IAFs MiG-29 UPG. So they are more or less evenly matched.

In 2019, the Mig-29s BVR was insufficient but was made up by 2025 with the RVV-SD.

Agree.

So the focus should be on PAF's future
SAMs, EW assets, multispectral stealth aircraft, and short, medium, and long range CMs and BMs. All

Like the IAF, Pakistan's AD network is multi-layered, configured around overlapping base (BADZ) and territorial (ADGES) air defence zones.

While many of their radars and C2 units have been destroyed, the core network (which manages its ADIZ etc is) more or less intact.

Else, you'd have seen the PAF running round the clock CAP sorties to enforce airspace closure immediately after ceasefire was declared.

Their AD was degraded in Op Sindoor but far from destroyed.

 

[randomradio]

The issue is VLO stealth of J-35AE, which can sneak in despite all our imtegrated Air Defense and may launch PL-16s from well within its NEZ.

That requires low altitude penetration, but the missile won't have the energy to climb. Plus it will require the J-35's own radar. At medium and high altitude, it will be within the range of both S-400 and MRSAM.

That's a real issue for them but still doesn't undermine the stealth capabilities J-35AE brings along with itself.

Sure. But their problems right now are so big that the J-35 won't bridge that gap.

And yet we lost one Rafale.

Technical malfunction. Pilot disorientation. Bird strike. Maintenance failure. Plenty of reasons not related to hostile action. Or it was just taken out of the upgrade line for some reason, which is quite common when jets are handed over to DRDO for testing and weapons integration.

F-35A with ALE-70 or in future BriteCloud expendable decoys is/would be far more effective than Rafale cause:

Precisely and Rafale as @vstol Jockey said is very prominent on radar with EFTs and external weapons.

Yes. And still Rafale is not stealth, but J-35AE is.

There's not much difference between ALE-70 and X-Guard. Both are from the same generation and do the same things. Both are monopulse and LORO and both act as a decoy wingman. It's AI-driven too and fully integrated with SPECTRA, like ALE-70 on the F-35. Overall, the only difference is the ALE-70 is internal.

Rafale without ACT and carrying weapons is a regular 4th gen aircraft in terms of RCS. ACT has an off and on switch. So yeah, it's only stealthy when ACT is on.

 

[babablacksheep]

FBL is necessary to enable laser communications between different air and space assets. This allows terabit speeds.

Whereas the F-35 is still stuck with electrical interfaces.

You need to do far more research on FBL.

First of all before i reply on another one of your claims that I just find wrong both on FBL & F35 being stuck.


let's get one thing straight, can you describe to me how you think flight control allows communication between different aircrafts/space assests?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

@randomradio

This is why we should be investing in SEAD & DEAD
Missiles and Drones

https://twitter.com/x/status/2032872789850599845

 

[randomradio]

So we need MK 2 to actually believe that this Technological advancement
( Active Cancellation)
Has been Accomplished

Of course not. It's been implemented on the Rafale.In fact Rafale was designed from the ground up to use active cancelation for stealth. That's why it has sawtooth patterns in its trailing edges, which is a feature only present on 5th gen designs.







F-22:


J-20:


These sawtooth patterns are completely useless on non-stealth jets.

So all the clues are there, people just prefer being blissfully ignorant about topics they don't understand.

CSIR-NAL are in the process of developing it and it should be introduced sometime after our platforms are operational.

Developing the basic technology is not difficult at this point in time, but implementing it across different loadouts across multiple platforms will be expensive and time consuming.

CSIR-NAL is deeply involved in Ghatak, so this should be the first platform that gets it. Things also get simpler with its all internal loadout. Then they can aim towards LCA Mk2, AMCA, and TEDBF. But there's a limit to what type of weapons and loadouts they can use to perform ACT 'cause the entire thing is a slow process for non-stealth designs. They have to first go as low as possible on RCS on a clean airframe (0.0001m2 class for Rafale) and then test with different weapons and loadouts, study the RCS in a large 1:1 anechoic chamber, and teach the EW suite to cancel the echo, and over time, try to get as close as possible to the clean figure while also further improving the clean airframe's RCS. That's why the Rafale comes with limited weapons options.

 

[babablacksheep]

More on active cancelation fro CSIR-NAL.

View attachment 50363

What all those words mean:
View attachment 50364

The conclusion they reached.

View attachment 50365

And now, they are working on active cancelation for incorporation into Indian aircraft. AMCA, TEDBF, Ghatak, and LCA Mk2, all 4 can be equipped with it.

And this bit is very, very important.
"As compared to passive cancellation of scattered power, active RCS reduction is more feasible and practical as it requires less power, and has got cost-effective advantages."

What it means is active cancelation is easier than shaping-based stealth. That's why Rafale went after this route.

So my fantasy is an actual program is many countries.

Here, start reading, if you have full access.

Hema Singh

CSIR - National Aerospace Laboratories, Bangalore, India - Cited by 800 - Computational Electromagnetics - Phased array - Radar cross section

scholar.google.com

Another one:

Dr. Balamati Choudhury

Scientist, CSIR-national Aerospace Laboratories - Cited by 945 - soft computing - terahertz - metamaterial - ray tracing - antenna

scholar.google.com

These topics are too complex for this forum. So the obvious lack of understanding is natural.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/395396055_Active_Cancellation_Algorithm_for_Radar_Cross_Section_Reduction

Nothing new, f35, su57, su35s, super hornets NGJ etc, EW suites/pods can do *Active cancellation* along with other EW methods.

It can be supplementary, but its not a alternative to passive materials and shaping based stealth.