Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

That's what drop tanks are for in a proper war. Lots of drop tank canoes in Vietnam.
The U.S. Air Force budgeted $553 million (in FY2024 documents) for these stealthy tanks and associated pylons, planning to procure 326 tanks and 286 pylons (providing roughly two full sets per aircraft for the ~140–150 operational F-22s).

This works out to an average procurement cost of roughly $1.7 million per tank (total tank/pylon budget divided by ~326 tanks; actual per-unit figures may vary due to shared pylon costs, development amortization, and economies of scale).

As I said before a very expensive solution, even if stealth drop tank some of stealth degradation will happen compared to clean f22.



More than compensated for by better optics and computing even if true.
We don't know, that's just your assumption, you have not provided any sources to back up your claim.

On the other hand its known phenomenon that attenuation, scattering, blooming due to material properties/ medium/environmental buildup/optical imperfections, can and does happen.

Even if you replace the old IR sensor with newer better one, it will give better performance compared to older one that got replaced but nothing says it can match the performance of another IR sensor that is just as good but also does'nt have to deal with interference caused by external housing.





Then that jet would be shot down
Just like f35 which it turns on its radar to search for potential hostiles? Even LPI doesn't fully compensate for that.

Well unlike su57 which is lot more agile and can supercruise, along with not lacking any protective sensors whether it be RWR,MAWS,DAS etc and can take evasive actions, F35 on the other hand does have all those sensors too but sucks kinematically, and kinematics DO still matter.





And since it doesn't know when to scan, it may not even be in IRST range when it does.
No body knows at the START when to scan with IR, or when to turn on radar, you accept the risk and still do it if mission require.
On the other hand you can get info, cues from other systems too, getting the rough info to take action.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
You've also narrowe3d the scan area wrt the other Su-57s and even tilted back it still looks likea luneberg lens.
*looks like*
Judging from looks.
“I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes,” Bogdan said in the interview. The statement was accurate for radar cross section, as measured in decibels, and range of detectability, he said, and he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it.
**he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it**

Already told you its covered in RAM from back.

Then you have the horrid joint details and nacelles. It's a mess
Ones again judging from prototypes.

And the coating doesn't look close to F-22/J-20/F-35.
HBrHfIyXMAEKqjr.jpeg
Production variant, su57



Netherlands 2.jpg
F35
images.jpeg
F22
 
*looks like*
Judging from looks.
Geometric stealth is visible, so yes.
**he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it**

Already told you its covered in RAM from back.


Ones again judging from prototypes.


View attachment 50243
Production variant, su57



View attachment 50244
F35
View attachment 50245
F22
Let's have the views from the same angle and lighting conditions please. Notice you picked a photo with an obstruction and the darkest light )or lack of) possible.

Nacelles - not remotely stealthy.
1773063799795.png
1773063952827.png

I could point out the cockpit frame as well as the IRST and the crappy joints. Notice also the edges of the cockpit.

1773064182523.png
1773064222224.png

Even zoomed in it isn't as upgly and messy as the Su-57.

1773064395455.png
1773064432531.png
 
Last edited:
Geometric stealth is visible
To get a good look at Geometric stealth, we use simulation, not eyes, you can see certain feature as more stealthy and good for stealth, but doesn't tell much.



Let's have the views from the same angle and lighting conditions please.
For what? You're gonna look at their Geometry? Or you beleive somehow production level su57's coating will degrade to look like its prototypes coating? All these shots are CLOSE UP'S of production variants of su57,f35,f22.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
The U.S. Air Force budgeted $553 million (in FY2024 documents) for these stealthy tanks and associated pylons, planning to procure 326 tanks and 286 pylons (providing roughly two full sets per aircraft for the ~140–150 operational F-22s).

This works out to an average procurement cost of roughly $1.7 million per tank (total tank/pylon budget divided by ~326 tanks; actual per-unit figures may vary due to shared pylon costs, development amortization, and economies of scale).

As I said before a very expensive solution, even if stealth drop tank some of stealth degradation will happen compared to clean f22.
There's 180+ F-22s. That cost is nothing to the US, look at how much they spend on interceptors. As regards range, the J-20 and Su-57 range and fuel load figures are likely heavily massaged with no clear information.
We don't know, that's just your assumption, you have not provided any sources to back up your claim.
Optics are an extension of the semi-conductor industry, where the US excels, China copies and Russia imports. Enough said.
On the other hand its known phenomenon that attenuation, scattering, blooming due to material properties/ medium/environmental buildup/optical imperfections, can and does happen.

Even if you replace the old IR sensor with newer better one, it will give better performance compared to older one that got replaced but nothing says it can match the performance of another IR sensor that is just as good but also does'nt have to deal with interference caused by external housing.
The sensor will be covered when not is use and there's nothing to show that an external pod performs worse at all. Cooling is likely better and an external pod allows for larger, more powerful optics.
Just like f35 which it turns on its radar to search for potential hostiles? Even LPI doesn't fully compensate for that.

Well unlike su57 which is lot more agile and can supercruise, along with not lacking any protective sensors whether it be RWR,MAWS,DAS etc and can take evasive actions, F35 on the other hand does have all those sensors too but sucks kinematically, and kinematics DO still matter.
Both the F-35 and F-22 can passively target hostile emissions using ESM. RWR, MAWS and DAS are all things the F-22s and F-35s have. Agility is meaningless in modern air warfare. F-22 can supercruise but that only increases IR emissions. F-35 wins by not getting targets, Su-57 loses.
No body knows at the START when to scan with IR, or when to turn on radar, you accept the risk and still do it if mission require.
On the other hand you can get info, cues from other systems too, getting the rough info to take action.
US will do because of AMTI/GMTI satellites. They can track the enemy jets from directly above as soon as they start to move on the airfield. Jets aren't very stealthy from above either. Then an F-18SH can take them out with an AIM-174B while they're wandering why there's a missile lock warning coming from heaven. Even good stealth is countered, never mind bad stealth.

Oh yeah, it's also a few dozen Su-57s (at best) versus >1,000 F-22s/F-35s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
To get a good look at Geometric stealth, we use simulation, not eyes, you can see certain feature as more stealthy and good for stealth, but doesn't tell much.
What RCS simulations don't model is alll those crappy joints and rivets or the RAM, which looks a pile of ar5e on the Su-57.
For what? You're gonna look at their Geometry? Or you beleive somehow production level su57's coating will degrade to look like its prototypes coating? All these shots are CLOSE UP'S of production variants of su57,f35,f22.
Better lighting and same angles please. Also yes, use and maintenance will have an impact. But I think my front views say it all really.
 
There's 180+ F-22s. That cost is nothing to the US, look at how much they spend on interceptors.
U.S. is struggling to ramp up the production of interceptors to the point, literal POTUS had to meet with defence contractors to urge them to ramp it up.

Part of the reason is not just cost, but them being bespoke, technologically complex product with exotic raw materials, something that stealthy EFT will also be.


the J-20 and Su-57 range and fuel load figures are likely heavily massaged with no clear information
*likely* another assumption.
Its not that their's no clear info. , its that you find it hard to beleive the figures posted by a non Western sources.


Optics are an extension of the semi-conductor industry, where the US excels, China copies and Russia imports.
Military semiconductors including the *highest performance* ones and ones used in IR sensors, Typically use more "mature/older" nodes, often ranging from 28nm to 90nm.

Military, space agencies etc doesn't use top the line excelling semi-conductors.

For example,F-35 relies on significantly larger nodes. For example, its PowerPC G4 processors manufactured on 90nm to 130nm processes.


The sensor will be covered when not is use and there's nothing to show that an external pod performs worse at all. Cooling is likely better and an external pod allows for larger, more powerful optics.
External additions inherently increase bistatic/monostatic RCS contributions.
Even with optimized faceted geometry and RAM aligned to the F-22's planform.

external pods/tanks introduce discrete scattering centers: leading/trailing edges, dihedral/canted surfaces, pylon interfaces, and surface discontinuities.

These generate creeping-wave and edge diffraction returns not present in the baseline clean configuration.
&
The underwing hardpoints require structural pylons and separation mechanisms ( pneumatic for tanks) which also bring additional surface centers for scattering.




Both the F-35 and F-22 can passively target hostile emissions using ESM. RWR, MAWS and DAS are all things the F-22s and F-35s have
The F-22 Raptor does not feature a dedicated, widely acknowledged infrared Missile Approach Warning System/distributed aperture system (MAWS/DAS)







Agility is meaningless in modern air warfare
Is that why, US wants agility and supercruise in its f47?

**Trump described the aircraft as having unprecedented maneuverability, superior power, and speeds exceeding Mach 2**.

. F-22 can supercruise but that only increases IR emissions.
It also helps to reach the bogey faster to intercept it, before it for examples gets close enough to release its anti-ship payload and then run way.

Its also help in defensive action if a missile is fired towards you( which will in future with all the anti-ship detection tech the entire world is aggressively working) by ground based or another jet/stealth jet.

And many other benefits.




F-35 wins by not getting targets, Su-57 loses.
Another ones of your assumptions.


US will do because of AMTI/GMTI satellites. They can track the enemy jets from directly above as soon as they start to move on the airfield. Jets aren't very stealthy from above either
So will china.




Even good stealth is countered, never mind bad stealth.
Exactly my point, hence sucking kinematically while less bad than sucking stealth wise, but it still sucks.
Oh yeah, it's also a few dozen Su-57s (at best) versus >1,000 F-22s/F-35s.
Nothing to do with topic of su57's stealth or topic of f22's compromises having to used external tanks
 
U.S. is struggling to ramp up the production of interceptors to the point, literal POTUS had to meet with defence contractors to urge them to ramp it up.

Part of the reason is not just cost, but them being bespoke, technologically complex product with exotic raw materials, something that stealthy EFT will also be.
And yet they are ramping up. Supplying two wars and US military don't forget, plus multiple foreign nations.
*likely* another assumption.
Its not that their's no clear info. , its that you find it hard to beleive the figures posted by a non Western sources.
Because BS.
Military semiconductors including the *highest performance* ones and ones used in IR sensors, Typically use more "mature/older" nodes, often ranging from 28nm to 90nm.
Military, space agencies etc doesn't use top the line excelling semi-conductors.

For example,F-35 relies on significantly larger nodes. For example, its PowerPC G4 processors manufactured on 90nm to 130nm processes.
Even if you step back a few years, the differences are the same, just a few years earlier, so invalid point.
External additions inherently increase bistatic/monostatic RCS contributions.
Even with optimized faceted geometry and RAM aligned to the F-22's planform.

external pods/tanks introduce discrete scattering centers: leading/trailing edges, dihedral/canted surfaces, pylon interfaces, and surface discontinuities.

These generate creeping-wave and edge diffraction returns not present in the baseline clean configuration.
&
The underwing hardpoints require structural pylons and separation mechanisms ( pneumatic for tanks) which also bring additional surface centers for scattering.
Blahblahblacksheep. Sidewinders don't deteriorate RCS from a purely geometric perspective. Note RAM is not modelled, nor are all those sh!tty cracks and rivets.


1773075256903.png
The F-22 Raptor does not feature a dedicated, widely acknowledged infrared Missile Approach Warning System/distributed aperture system (MAWS/DAS)
MAWS it does, whether it has DAS capabilities yet is questionable. DO I really have to correct such utter crap.

AAR-56 Missile Approach Warning System

1773075375459.png

Is that why, US wants agility and supercruise in its f47?

**Trump described the aircraft as having unprecedented maneuverability, superior power, and speeds exceeding Mach 2**.
It's the range they want.
It also helps to reach the bogey faster to intercept it, before it for examples gets close enough to release its anti-ship payload and then run way.
You would use full afterburner for the first part then slow to cruise.
Its also help in defensive action if a missile is fired towards you( which will in future with all the anti-ship detection tech the entire world is aggressively working) by ground based or another jet/stealth jet.

And many other benefits.





Another ones of your assumptions.
See graph above.
So will china.
Not as early or as comprehensive due to LV technology lagging.
Exactly my point, hence sucking kinematically while less bad than sucking stealth wise, but it still sucks.

Nothing to do with topic of su57's stealth or topic of f22's compromises having to used external tanks
Sucking in space, like Russia does is even worse but see graph, that's the argument done, you lose, bye.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Rajput Lion
MAWS it does, whether it has DAS capabilities yet is questionable. DO I really have to correct such utter crap.


 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Rather than contribute to this ever increasing and time-consuming word salad, I'll leave you with one question:

Why isn't Russia able to do the same thing over Ukraine that the US has done over Iran? I.e. directly over-flying enemy-held territory and dropping JDAMs and SDBs and the like.
 
Rather than contribute to this ever increasing and time-consuming word salad, I'll leave you with one question:

Why isn't Russia able to do the same thing over Ukraine that the US has done over Iran? I.e. directly over-flying enemy-held territory and dropping JDAMs and SDBs and the like.
Reality isn't a part of this game
The Rafale is as good as a F-35
The SU-57 is as good as a F-22
Anything India touches is golden
 
Reality isn't a part of this game
The Rafale is as good as a F-35
The SU-57 is as good as a F-22
Anything India touches is golden
Yeah well who here said whatever you've put out or even agreed with it except the usual suspects ?

Is the Su-57 inducted in the kind of numbers we see for the F-22 or the F-35 ? It's obvious the Su-57 is WiP - Work in Progress . Russia lacks the funds to develop it for which they were dependent on India much like the MKI .

With India backing out of the project , development has been delayed as funding is piece meal. The M version of the Su-57 has been under testing & is likely closest to the requirements of the VKS.

Once it is certified you can expect the VKS to induct it in sizeable numbers. When will that happen is anyone's guess but it should be close to the end of this decade.

As far as the Rafale goes I doubt any Indian member claimed it's the equivalent of the F-35 except one sample. Previously it was thought the Rafale was good enough to take on the J-20 based on certain statements coming out of the IAF.

Since then there's been a rethink I guess. From our PoV we don't have access to any 5th Gen platform except the Su-57 which is WiP as I put it before . We won't get the F-35 with no strings attached which is how we'd prefer it or the least strings attached .

That leaves the cabinet bare with only 4.5 Gen + platforms of which the Rafale is the best choice under the circumstances though IMHO even that's not being inducted when we want it or at least in the numbers we want it in .
 
Rather than contribute to this ever increasing and time-consuming word salad, I'll leave you with one question:

Why isn't Russia able to do the same thing over Ukraine that the US has done over Iran? I.e. directly over-flying enemy-held territory and dropping JDAMs and SDBs and the like.
The answer is simple. Ukraine in 2022 had the highest density of AD in europe bar none. Its had the privilege of being the part of te soviet union that had the largest amount of AD after moscow since it was the direct gateway to moscow. There is a reason why those old soviet builds take 500kg and 1000 kg bomb and still stand.

As for why they dont fly over ukraine, They have done so in the past. A russian S70 hunter drone was shot down by a russian su57 over kostiantynivka(ukraine) which at that time was over 20 kms behind the most active frontline in the entire war. This frontline had the hgihest amount of AD and resources attached ot it and still didnt shoot a su57 down. There is video footage available for this incident.

The us has 150+ f22s and 400+ F35s. russia from all accounts has 40-50 delivered. Thats just delivered we dont know how many of those delivered are actually in service.

Comparing ukraine to iran is stupid. Iran's AD was also heavily compromised by the mossad in the 12 day war and obviously in this war as well.Lets not even talk about crew standards or the fact the ukraine had the advantage of the entire western intelligence force against russia.

As a comparison ukraine is said to have had 250+ S300 launchers in 2022 at the start of the russian invasion of ukraine. They also had 72 buk m1 systems. On top of the older S125s which were in the multiple 100s and thousands if not 10s of thousands of MANPADS. Ukraine was the literal builder of AD for the soviet union LMAO.

compare that. Iran has 4 batteries of s300 at the start of this conflict which were alr degraded if not outright destroyed during the 12 day war sabotage missions. Ukraine had a minimum of 32 operational and many more that were pulled out of storage once they got the intel in 2021.

These were not poor s300s either but the best AD available on the collapse of the soviet union. As i said ukraine was the entry ticket to moscow.

Comparing ukraine to iran is negligence at best and outright propoganda at worst
 
Last edited:
Reality isn't a part of this game
The Rafale is as good as a F-35
The SU-57 is as good as a F-22
Anything India touches is golden
nobody with any brain is claiming the rafale is the F35.
The Su57 does beat the F22 in its specific doctrine. As a defensive jet attacking using the help of friendly AD. As a jet going into enemy AD and deep penetration it does not.

yes ofc anything India touches is golden. We dont ever talk about all the BS propoganda the US makes about the F22 having a RCS the size of a bird while conveniently forgetting to state the fact that that RCS is from the most optimal angle on the entire jet in complete lab like conditions. We dont talk about how bad the serviceability rates are on F22 and the F35. Like come on.
 
Reality isn't a part of this game
Only for Western propagandists like you and your Irish friend.
The Rafale is as good as a F-35
In stealth and sensor fusion F-35 is indeed better than Rafale. But there are multiple area in which Rafale is far better. For us, Rafale anyday over F-35.
The SU-57 is as good as a F-22
It's designed to kill F-22 & F-35 fighting behind dense Russian IADS. So once again, it is better in some area while trailing the Raptor in others.
Anything India touches is golden
Yes, just like your British Empire🤣
 
Rather than contribute to this ever increasing and time-consuming word salad, I'll leave you with one question:

Why isn't Russia able to do the same thing over Ukraine that the US has done over Iran? I.e. directly over-flying enemy-held territory and dropping JDAMs and SDBs and the like.

It's simple, they built their air force for a defensive war with NATO using weapons and technologies configured in the 90s. So the jets are doing what they would have originally been doing had NATO invaded, but cannot go beyond that. In India, we have made up for those weaknesses on our MKIs with alternative Indian and Israeli tech.

Russia's modernization program to achieve future goals, what we take for granted today, was aimed with the Su-57, S-70, PAK DA etc in mind for the 2030s. They simply got caught with their pants down before that could happen.

Plus Russia had to choose how they could modernize from the 2000s. So they built up their nuke tech, air defense, and undersea capabilities first; all that they possess are more or less NATO-equivalent or NATO++ in these areas. In the mean time they bought whatever they could on the cheap, like the Flanker family, upgraded T-72s etc while developing next gen replacements like the Su-57 and Armata. By 2035 they should have all that in place in large numbers.

So they have the tech necessary for SEAD/DEAD against static targets, which they used to great effect, but couldn't deal with mobile targets that we deployed in the 2010s. They basically skipped the inductions made in the 2010s by the West and India that allows us to do those things.

Similarly, look at the damage done to US radars in the ME due to lack of anti-drone tech. So investment in key areas matters. Most of NATO is in the same boat today.
 
Excuses, excuses. Iran was using Russian AD and:




Iran possesses a large, diverse, and heavily layered surface-to-air missile (SAM) network featuring both imported Russian systems (S-300, S-400) and indigenously produced, high-capability batteries. While specific, up-to-date numbers are classified, estimates have indicated over 40 active, major strategic SAM sites, with some reports suggesting hundreds to thousands of launchers across all ranges.
Where are the Su-57s flying over Kyiv people? Where?

The Su57 does beat the F22 in its specific doctrine.
The doctrine of hiding on the ground well away from trouble. :ROFLMAO:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Rajput Lion