Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

[Speedster1]

Untill and unless that expertise (ToT of whatever level it might be), is accessible by those actually designing the sub in India, it's useless.


For example HAL has the expertise for Adour, RD33 and AL31s while GTRE is struggling to develop everything from scratch. In this case the ToT is useless.

Let's hope the Germans will be more forthcoming than the French in this regard. They have literally emptied the vault for China after all.

I just hope we leverage this deal well to pick up whatever tech we need for P-76, particularly broadband spherical sonar arrays, towed arrays, periscope optronics, AIP, etc.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Let's hope the Germans will be more forthcoming than the French in this regard. They have literally emptied the vault for China after all.

I just hope we leverage this deal well to pick up whatever tech we need for P-76, particularly broadband spherical sonar arrays, towed arrays, periscope optronics, AIP, etc.

I feel it's less about what the French or Germans offer and more about what our own institutions can do together.

 

[spice]

India Set to Acquire 6 Advanced German AIP Submarines in Rs 99,000 Crore Defence Deal

The Indian Navy is poised to finalize a significant deal worth Rs 99,000 crore for six German submarines from Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems, to be constructed in Mumbai by Mazagon Docks Limited. , India News, Times Now

www.timesnownews.com

Rs 99,000 crore is a slightly unusual amount, but that is what the deal for the six German submarines for the Indian Navy is likely to amount to. This is for six German submarines of Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) to be made in India by Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) in Mumbai.

Highly placed sources said the draft cabinet note is ready and has been circulated. Now that the deal has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by the defence minister, Rajnath Singh, it will need clearance by the cabinet committee on security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The draft cabinet note will need clearance by other parts of the government including the finance ministry and the National Security Council before it goes to the cabinet. In some cases, other ministries have questions and discussions regarding the cost and other issues are necessary.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

India Set to Acquire 6 Advanced German AIP Submarines in Rs 99,000 Crore Defence Deal

The Indian Navy is poised to finalize a significant deal worth Rs 99,000 crore for six German submarines from Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems, to be constructed in Mumbai by Mazagon Docks Limited. , India News, Times Now

www.timesnownews.com

Rs 99,000 crore is a slightly unusual amount, but that is what the deal for the six German submarines for the Indian Navy is likely to amount to. This is for six German submarines of Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) to be made in India by Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) in Mumbai.

Highly placed sources said the draft cabinet note is ready and has been circulated. Now that the deal has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by the defence minister, Rajnath Singh, it will need clearance by the cabinet committee on security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The draft cabinet note will need clearance by other parts of the government including the finance ministry and the National Security Council before it goes to the cabinet. In some cases, other ministries have questions and discussions regarding the cost and other issues are necessary.

The babus didn't sign the 3 additional Scorpene in mid 2025, saying we will most probably sign the TKMS deal before 31 March 2026.

Let's see if it happens. I don't think it can.

 

[South block]

The babus didn't sign the 3 additional Scorpene in mid 2025, saying we will most probably sign the TKMS deal before 31 March 2026.

Let's see if it happens. I don't think it can.

3 additional Scorpene offer us no advantage & would have been purely waste of money.... German submarine is next generation & will offer us decisive edge for decades to come.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

3 additional Scorpene offer us no advantage & would have been purely waste of money.... German submarine is next generation & will offer us decisive edge for decades to come.

They give us numbers. Right now we have 4 Type 209s, 6 Kilos and 6 Scorpenes. That's 16 units distributed across east and western seaboards. By 2030, we will be likely down to 12-14 units.

Now if we sign TKMS deal right now, the 1st sub get inducted by 2034-35.

The 3 Scorpenes will come earlier if signed today. They will give us the cushion to retire 40 year old boats on time.

In next 2 years Pakistan Navy will have more subs than Western Command of Indian Navy. And we will not be able to bring our CBGs in northern Arabian Sea like we did during Op Sindoor.

 

[Aniruddha]

3 additional Scorpene offer us no advantage & would have been purely waste of money.... German submarine is next generation & will offer us decisive edge for decades to come.

Those 3 Scorpenes are based on a proven design that has been operational with the Navy for atleast 9 years now.
MDL has the necessary expertise need to build them in time and given the necessary numbers needed for the Navy's subsurface fleet in time.
The boat offered under P75I is a brand new design and as such the program could be hampered by delays due to a number of unknown issues which could crop up during construction.

 

[South block]

They give us numbers. Right now we have 4 Type 209s, 6 Kilos and 6 Scorpenes. That's 16 units distributed across east and western seaboards. By 2030, we will be likely down to 12-14 units.

Now if we sign TKMS deal right now, the 1st sub get inducted by 2034-35.

The 3 Scorpenes will come earlier if signed today. They will give us the cushion to retire 40 year old boats on time.

In next 2 years Pakistan Navy will have more subs than Western Command of Indian Navy. And we will not be able to bring our CBGs in northern Arabian Sea like we did during Op Sindoor.

All Pakistani submarine are outright junk & are basically on life support including those 3 Agosta 90B..... There latest Chinese temu tin can are noisy due to non availability of critical European components & this is the best they have. With such pathetic acoustic signature there SSK are for a one way suicide mission against a formidable surface fleet like that of Indian Navy.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

All Pakistani submarine are outright junk & are basically on life support including those 3 Agosta 90B..... There latest Chinese temu tin can are noisy due to non availability of critical European components & this is the best they have. With such pathetic acoustic signature there SSK are for a one way suicide mission against a formidable surface fleet like that of Indian Navy.

If the Agosta 90B junk, let's say 40/100 on capability scale, out best SSK is 30/100 at this current moment.

The Agosta 90B has a modern torpedo DM2A4 torpedos and a functional AIP.

The predessor of Yuan, the Type 039 popped up in between the US Navy CBG Exercise. The Yuan with Chinese components, without western alternatives will still be on par with that capacity.

And they will have 8 SSKs with AIP, and Cruise Missile firing capacity in North Arabian Sea by 2028.

In case of conflict with Pakistan, our Navy will not be able to sail out from Gujarat/Maharashtra coast.
We should be realistic and not dismiss equipment and trained manpower.

 

[South block]

If the Agosta 90B junk, let's say 40/100 on capability scale, out best SSK is 30/100 at this current moment.

The Agosta 90B has a modern torpedo DM2A4 torpedos and a functional AIP.

The predessor of Yuan, the Type 039 popped up in between the US Navy CBG Exercise. The Yuan with Chinese components, without western alternatives will still be on par with that capacity.

And they will have 8 SSKs with AIP, and Cruise Missile firing capacity in North Arabian Sea by 2028.

In case of conflict with Pakistan, our Navy will not be able to sail out from Gujarat/Maharashtra coast.
We should be realistic and not dismiss equipment and trained manpower.

That functional AIP is quite noisy due to it's inherit design...... It's not that advance or give Agosta the edge you think it does other than slightly more endurance...... As for Chinese there junk submarine noise level are still higher than even kilo. You don't counter other country SSK procurement by buying more SSK. India is investing heavily in ASW assets which are more than enough to deal with all current & future underwater threats coming out from enemy countries.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

As for Chinese there junk submarine noise level are still higher than even kilo.

With Type 039G induction, Chinese realised that they had better local options than Improved 636 Kilo. That's why you see the stop in orders of Kilo post 2002-03 and start of Yuan Class production.

The Type 039A is better than or at par with 636.

Ours a generation older 877 EKM.

That functional AIP is quite noisy due to it's inherit design......

It is noisy in comparison to other AIPs. That's the point. If one has a option of MESMA, Sterling Cycle and our own AIP, the order of preference would cause MESMA to come last.

But it still triumphs over a non AIP soviet era sub.

You don't counter other country SSK procurement by buying more SSK. India is investing heavily in ASW assets which are more than enough to deal with all current & future underwater threats coming out from enemy countries.

You are right about the 1st part, but absolutely wrong about the 2nd part that it's more than enough.

You have 16 ASW SWC vessels, let's assume Mumbai area gets a squadron of 4 units.

So even today if we have to hunt 1 Agosta 90B in our own waters, we will likely have 1 P8I, am ASW SWC, a couple of Frigate/Destroyer with MH60R. And that's it.

That's just 1 Agosta 90B sub along just 1 area.

 

[babablacksheep]

That functional AIP is quite noisy due to it's inherit desig

Sterling AIP of hangor class is more noisy RELATIVE to fuel cell based AIP, its lot more quiter than a diesel engine of the submarine.

At low speeds, Stirling-powered submarines can actually be quieter than many nuclear submarines.

ITS A THREAT

 

[_Anonymous_]

Those 3 Scorpenes are based on a proven design that has been operational with the Navy for atleast 9 years now.
MDL has the necessary expertise need to build them in time and given the necessary numbers needed for the Navy's subsurface fleet in time.
The boat offered under P75I is a brand new design and as such the program could be hampered by delays due to a number of unknown issues which could crop up during construction.

I don't think we're getting the Scorpenes. The requirement was first publicly announced in 2023 IIRC when Modi visited Paris.

Since then the prices came as a bit of a shock to MoD / IN & same time last year IN decided to focus on concluding the Project 75 I deal & revisit the additional Scorpenes requirement later.

If the need of the hour was quick induction we'd have signed up for additional Scorpenes immediately after Modi's visit & then moved on to Project 75 I.

Another factor is there's no love lost between IN & NG. All such factors like goodwill or the lack of it play a huge role in deciding such deals as additional requirements.

Frankly at this stage the possibility of inducting additional Scorpenes is rather remote. Even if we do go in for it , it should arrive at around the same time as the Project 75 I Submarines & frankly that makes little sense.

The price difference isn't much too going by current estimates. Might as well go in for additional Project 75 I submarines if need be.

Makes more sense to pursue the Project 76 instead than going in for additional Scorpenes.

 

[randomradio]

The best course of action remains buying 3 upgraded Kilos straight from Russia with 20-year service lives. We can get them all before 2032, and they will be gone by 2052, giving us enough time to get P-75I and P-76 in service. 3 Kilos for $1B.

We will probably take it up once the German deal is signed.

And I'm hoping for an extra SSN lease, although it's become less likely than before.

The follow-on Scorpene deal was ridiculous at this point at such an insane price point compared to just buying 3 more German subs with higher ToT.

 

[Aniruddha]

The best course of action remains buying 3 upgraded Kilos straight from Russia with 20-year service lives. We can get them all before 2032, and they will be gone by 2052, giving us enough time to get P-75I and P-76 in service. 3 Kilos for $1B.

We will probably take it up once the German deal is signed.

And I'm hoping for an extra SSN lease, although it's become less likely than before.

The follow-on Scorpene deal was ridiculous at this point at such an insane price point compared to just buying 3 more German subs with higher ToT.

What was the price that Naval Group was quoting for the 3 additional Scorpenes?

 

[babablacksheep]

What was the price that Naval Group was quoting for the 3 additional Scorpenes?

approx. $4 billion+ for 3 additional scorpene with drdo AIP.

1.33 billion PER SUB.

P75i German sub, cost negotiations came down to 99000 crores or 10.8 billion dollars for 6 subs.
1.8 billion PER SUB.

additional scorpene costing 74% of p75i sub, per unit.

While scorpene sub is smaller, less advanced, will have less endurance even with drdo aip, not designed to be stealthy against active sonar, no VLS,
infra is already present within country, the cost will need to be paid fast and not stretch a decade unlike P75i.

 

[Aniruddha]

approx. $4 billion+ for 3 additional scorpene with drdo AIP.

1.33 billion PER SUB.

P75i German sub, cost negotiations came down to 99000 crores or 10.8 billion dollars for 6 subs.
1.8 billion PER SUB.

additional scorpene costing 74% of p75i sub, per unit.

While scorpene sub is smaller, less advanced, will have less endurance even with drdo aip, not designed to be stealthy against active sonar, no VLS,
infra is already present within country, the cost will need to be paid fast and not stretch a decade unlike P75i.

Thank You!!

approx. $4 billion+ for 3 additional scorpene with drdo AIP.

1.33 billion PER SUB.

P75i German sub, cost negotiations came down to 99000 crores or 10.8 billion dollars for 6 subs.
1.8 billion PER SUB.

additional scorpene costing 74% of p75i sub, per unit.

While scorpene sub is smaller, less advanced, will have less endurance even with drdo aip, not designed to be stealthy against active sonar, no VLS,
infra is already present within country, the cost will need to be paid fast and not stretch a decade unlike P75i.

I am wondering where this Rs.99,000 crore figure has cropped up from.
Just days ago, Print was reporting the cost to be around $9 billion (Rs. 81,900 crore) for 6 subs.

 

[babablacksheep]

Thank You!!

I am wondering where this Rs.99,000 crore figure has cropped up from.
Just days ago, Print was reporting the cost to be around $9 billion (Rs. 81,900 crore) for 6 subs.

Post in thread 'Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions' Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

 

[RationalGuy]

If the Agosta 90B junk, let's say 40/100 on capability scale, out best SSK is 30/100 at this current moment.

The Agosta 90B has a modern torpedo DM2A4 torpedos and a functional AIP.

The predessor of Yuan, the Type 039 popped up in between the US Navy CBG Exercise. The Yuan with Chinese components, without western alternatives will still be on par with that capacity.

And they will have 8 SSKs with AIP, and Cruise Missile firing capacity in North Arabian Sea by 2028.

In case of conflict with Pakistan, our Navy will not be able to sail out from Gujarat/Maharashtra coast.
We should be realistic and not dismiss equipment and trained manpower.

You're saying against Pakistan our Navy will be near useless in a conflict in a near term conflict? The situation is that bad? Surely our submarine and ASW assets cannot leave our Navy in such a despicable situation where it cannot even leave its own coastline?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

You're saying against Pakistan our Navy will be near useless in a conflict in a near term conflict? The situation is that bad? Surely our submarine and ASW assets cannot leave our Navy in such a despicable situation where it cannot even leave its own coastline?

You will need assets in space. Fructification of additional P8I, C295W MPA, additional MH60R equipped vessels.

And still it will be more challenging than today.

Currently PN has an issue where 2 Agosta 70 subs are 45+ years old without AIP. They will not take them out for combat roles unless no other choice remains.

Then out of the 3 Agosta 90B, due to MLU cycle, at best only 1 is available for ops.

Right now all we need to do is keep an eye on 3 Naval bases of Pak, and we are more or less okay.

Now fast forward to 2028.

The MLUs of all Agosta 90B are complete. And 2 Agosta 70 are retired and PN has ~5 Hangor class subs in service.

That's 8 subs, and easily 3-4 subs ready for deployment.

That's 300% increase in their capabilities.