Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

Germany wants a big aircraft? And french want an aircraft capable of carrier operations.
Sounds like GCAP would a better choice for Germany than FCAS.

Brits, Italians and Japs have standardized on F35B for their naval operations. No CATOBAR launched Aircraft requirements from them ie no Carrier launch requirements for GCAP ig
 
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Germany is looking at GCAP, I still like GCAP for India

AI Overview
Germany is exploring joining the
UK-Italy-Japan Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) to develop a sixth-generation fighter, driven by frustration over delays and leadership disputes in the Franco-German FCAS project. Prime Minister Meloni has shown openness to German participation in the 2035-targeted GCAP, which offers a potentially faster timeline than FCAS

 
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Germany is looking at GCAP, I still like GCAP for India

AI Overview
Germany is exploring joining the
UK-Italy-Japan Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) to develop a sixth-generation fighter, driven by frustration over delays and leadership disputes in the Franco-German FCAS project. Prime Minister Meloni has shown openness to German participation in the 2035-targeted GCAP, which offers a potentially faster timeline than FCAS

yea i completely agree with this article. India might have the industrial capablities if it put everything together but this is not possible in any democratic country let alone a country that is as lethargic in some things like India.

Once the design is frozen and sub system designs are frozen we could enter GCAP as a partner for manufacturing the GCAP, especially if we get some help with regards to the AMCA.

pretty nice article
 
GCAP could be good replacement for IAFs MKIs but GoI will take the risk of Multi-country partner program, Sounds like a big hassle.
The only partnership that is worth investing money and time is Engines development.
 
GCAP could be good replacement for IAFs MKIs but GoI will take the risk of Multi-country partner program, Sounds like a big hassle.
The only partnership that is worth investing money and time is Engines development.
The GCAP is the only program apart from chinese and american 6th gens that seems on track. If India does want to join after the first flight(2028-2029ish) then it is possible. But if we want the ability to program our own weapons we would need to pay tier 1.5 partnership which will cost us 10B USD ish at minimum.

Although tbf, if we do increase the defence budget to 2.5% of the GDP(which looks highly likely) and the GDP grows to 7 trillion by 2030(which looks increasingly likely) thats like 160 billion USD for the budget and assuming 33% for capital stuff thats 55 is billion per year. the AF gets around 30% of 55 billion which would be 20 billion per year which is more than enough to fund programs, not even accounting for any future growth of the economy.
 
The GCAP is the only program apart from chinese and american 6th gens that seems on track
Both F-47 and GCAP are too early in their program to be said to be on track, US kind of can be called given they have flown their demonstrators way back,and more mature ecosystem, while brits & japanese are attempting to leap directly into 6th gen from currently 4.5th gen base.


Once GCAP's demonstrator fly in~2028, without delays, then you can argue its on track.

Right now its only somewhat ahead of the FCAS, that is gcap's partners have been formalized and their workshare agreements mostly accepted between them, while in FCAS there is still debate on workshare, tech, doctrine going on.
 
GoI's sudden interest in SCAF is just them fishing for information. I wouldn't read too much into it. First off, Macron needs to be replaced. Then the partners need to break up, which should last at least until the demonstrator is flying. So let's not expect anything major happening until it's all over first.

IAF is mostly likely going to buy a 6th gen jet. My options have always been Mig-41, F-47, and GCAP for now. If we are to select SCAF as a larger program, we may go about it similar to FGFA, where the French work on the airframe, avionics, and engine on their own, while we step in for a slightly modified airframe and our own avionics. We will end up sharing a small portion of the costs for the airframe and engine while independently developing different avionics. What do you think @Picdelamirand-oil?

SCAF will be seen as a replacement for the MKI though.

In any case, as I had claimed before, ADA is unlikely to work on a 6th gen design for the IAF. They will have to aim for the IN while focusing on 7th gen for the IAF. ADA is unlikely to partner in an FGFA-style program. It will be headed by a private sector company, probably the one chosen to manufacture Rafales.

Anyway, this is quite a distance away. Su-57 and SCAF are both distractions to prevent hiccups in the Rafale deal.

I'm not a big fan of the GCAP, Germany and Japan are way too pacifist for our taste. Mig-41 is an interceptor. F-47 comes with strings attached, but will come in really fast, and in small numbers anyway. But only these 3 jets will be available in 2035, for induction by 2040. SCAF is closer to 2050.

It will be interesting if it turns out the IAF is chasing after Su-57 in order to make a play for an early F-47 induction. Showing interest in SCAF can also put greater pressure on them. Although relations are slightly strained with the Americans at the moment, it's still temporary and will go back to normal in a few months, long before their lower house elections.
 
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GoI's sudden interest in SCAF is just them fishing for information. I wouldn't read too much into it. First off, Macron needs to be replaced. Then the partners need to break up, which should last at least until the demonstrator is flying. So let's not expect anything major happening until it's all over first.

IAF is mostly likely going to buy a 6th gen jet. My options have always been Mig-41, F-47, and GCAP for now. If we are to select SCAF as a larger program, we may go about it similar to FGFA, where the French work on the airframe, avionics, and engine on their own, while we step in for a slightly modified airframe and our own avionics. We will end up sharing a small portion of the costs for the airframe and engine while independently developing different avionics. What do you think @Picdelamirand-oil?

SCAF will be seen as a replacement for the MKI though.

In any case, as I had claimed before, ADA is unlikely to work on a 6th gen design for the IAF. They will have to aim for the IN while focusing on 7th gen for the IAF. ADA is unlikely to partner in an FGFA-style program. It will be headed by a private sector company, probably the one chosen to manufacture Rafales.

Anyway, this is quite a distance away. Su-57 and SCAF are both distractions to prevent hiccups in the Rafale deal.

I'm not a big fan of the GCAP, Germany and Japan are way too pacifist for our taste. Mig-41 is an interceptor. F-47 comes with strings attached, but will come in really fast, and in small numbers anyway. But only these 3 jets will be available in 2035, for induction by 2040. SCAF is closer to 2050.

It will be interesting if it turns out the IAF is chasing after Su-57 in order to make a play for an early F-47 induction. Showing interest in SCAF can also put greater pressure on them. Although relations are slightly strained with the Americans at the moment, it's still temporary and will go back to normal in a few months, long before their lower house elections.
The SCAF deadlines should not be estimated based on what has been published in a Franco-German context: Dassault, if working alone, will move twice as fast as in cooperation with the Germans: Firstly, because the project must have progressed further than it appears, as Dassault had to do the work that its partners were unable to do so as not to be held back on its own tasks (this is a classic scenario at Dassault). Secondly, Dassault has never been slowed down by technical issues, but always by government budgets.
 
The SCAF deadlines should not be estimated based on what has been published in a Franco-German context: Dassault, if working alone, will move twice as fast as in cooperation with the Germans: Firstly, because the project must have progressed further than it appears, as Dassault had to do the work that its partners were unable to do so as not to be held back on its own tasks (this is a classic scenario at Dassault). Secondly, Dassault has never been slowed down by technical issues, but always by government budgets.
Let me give you a scenario:
India joins the FCAS. gives dassault the full freedom of design as long as it meets certain expectations. Dassault is then expected to share the blue prints and allow India to manufacture the jet on home soil. If we do go for the FCAS its going to be a minimum 150+ order if not 250+ since by the time the FCAS is available india would have the economy to support massive orders. How much would india need to contribute in terms of $$$ and how long would it take for dassault to deliver the first operationally capable jet. For good measure lets assume 2028-2029 start of partnership.
 
Let me give you a scenario:
India joins the FCAS. gives dassault the full freedom of design as long as it meets certain expectations. Dassault is then expected to share the blue prints and allow India to manufacture the jet on home soil. If we do go for the FCAS its going to be a minimum 150+ order if not 250+ since by the time the FCAS is available india would have the economy to support massive orders. How much would india need to contribute in terms of $$$ and how long would it take for dassault to deliver the first operationally capable jet. For good measure lets assume 2028-2029 start of partnership.
My man, calm down its not a official discussion.
 
The SCAF deadlines should not be estimated based on what has been published in a Franco-German context: Dassault, if working alone, will move twice as fast as in cooperation with the Germans: Firstly, because the project must have progressed further than it appears, as Dassault had to do the work that its partners were unable to do so as not to be held back on its own tasks (this is a classic scenario at Dassault). Secondly, Dassault has never been slowed down by technical issues, but always by government budgets.

SCAF is at the demonstrator stage today, first flight only in 2029. By the time requirements are finalized and actual development begins, it's gonna be 2040 for LRIP. But IAF will not want more than 20 IOC. So whatever date is FOC will be a lot closer to 2050 than 2035 compared to competitor jets.
 
Let me give you a scenario:
India joins the FCAS. gives dassault the full freedom of design as long as it meets certain expectations. Dassault is then expected to share the blue prints and allow India to manufacture the jet on home soil. If we do go for the FCAS its going to be a minimum 150+ order if not 250+ since by the time the FCAS is available india would have the economy to support massive orders. How much would india need to contribute in terms of $$$ and how long would it take for dassault to deliver the first operationally capable jet. For good measure lets assume 2028-2029 start of partnership.
A possible Franco-Indian FCAS partnership – a realistic perspective

Your scenario is not unrealistic, provided one essential condition is met from the outset:
Dassault must retain full system design authority, with India being a true strategic partner rather than a co-manager of specifications.

If this principle is accepted, a Franco-Indian FCAS becomes technically and politically viable.

1. Nature of the program​

What you describe would not be a continuation of the current European SCAF/FCAS framework.
It would be a new bilateral program, centred on:
  • Dassault Aviation as prime contractor and system architect
  • India as a full financial, industrial and operational partner
  • Large production volumes ensuring long-term viability
This distinction is critical.

2. Development cost and Indian contribution​

For a piloted sixth-generation fighter (excluding heavy loyal wingmen in the first phase), a realistic development cost would be in the range of €20–25 billion.

Given the scale of Indian requirements (150–250 aircraft), an Indian contribution of €10–15 billion, spread over 10–12 years, would be both reasonable and sustainable.
This would place India not as a customer, but as a co-owner of the program.

Such figures are modest compared to the long-term costs of fragmented procurement or dependence on foreign systems with limited sovereignty.

3. Timeline​

Assuming a partnership initiated in 2028–2029, a realistic schedule would be:
  • 2030: architecture definition and design freeze
  • 2032–2033: first prototype flight
  • 2035–2036: initial operational capability
  • Post-2036: full-rate production and upgrades
This timeline is ambitious but credible, particularly given Dassault’s track record with Rafale.

4. Industrial participation and technology sharing​

If India grants Dassault design freedom, France would be in a position to offer much deeper industrial access than any US-led program:
  • Local manufacturing and final assembly in India
  • Full depot-level maintenance
  • Modular avionics and open mission architecture
  • Significant access to software and system interfaces
Certain highly sensitive technologies would remain protected, but the level of sovereignty would be far superior to F-35-type arrangements.

5. Engine and propulsion​

A 120 kN-class engine is indeed the correct target.
A Safran-led propulsion program, building on M88/T-REX experience, could integrate Indian industrial participation and align naturally with AMCA engine development efforts.

This would not replace AMCA; it would accelerate India’s propulsion maturity.

6. Strategic logic​

For India, this path offers:
  • Strategic autonomy
  • Industrial depth
  • Long-term fleet coherence
  • Freedom of operational doctrine
For France and Dassault, it provides:
  • Stable funding
  • Large production volumes
  • Preservation of design sovereignty
  • A trusted strategic partner
In short, this would be a partnership of equals in intent, even if not identical in responsibilities.

7. Final thought​

Such a program would require political courage on both sides.
But in a world where alliances are increasingly transactional, a Franco-Indian FCAS would be one of the few truly sovereign airpower projects possible.

If both sides are willing to think long-term rather than program-by-program, the scenario you describe is not only possible — it may be one of the most rational options available.
 

3. Timeline​

Assuming a partnership initiated in 2028–2029, a realistic schedule would be:
  • 2030: architecture definition and design freeze
  • 2032–2033: first prototype flight
  • 2035–2036: initial operational capability
  • Post-2036: full-rate production and upgrades
This timeline is ambitious but credible, particularly given Dassault’s track record with Rafale.
No its not.

July 4, 1986: Maiden flight of the Rafale-A technology demonstrator.

1988–1993: Contract for four prototypes (C01, M01, M02, B01) and subsequent maiden flights of these variants.

The first flight of the Dassault Rafale C01 (the prototype for the French Air Force single-seat version) took place on May 19, 1991

December 2004: The French Air Force received its first three F2-standard Rafale-B aircraft, marking a significant step towards operational capacity.


More than a decade from first flight of CO1 To receiving 1st IOC rafale.



And the talk is about much more complex 6th gen jet.

From design freeze to full rate production in 6 years is straight up delusional.
 
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No its not.

July 4, 1986: Maiden flight of the Rafale-A technology demonstrator.

1988–1993: Contract for four prototypes (C01, M01, M02, B01) and subsequent maiden flights of these variants.

The first flight of the Dassault Rafale C01 (the prototype for the French Air Force single-seat version) took place on May 19, 1991

December 2004: The French Air Force received its first three F2-standard Rafale-B aircraft, marking a significant step towards operational capacity.


More than a decade from first flight of CO1 To receiving 1st IOC rafale.



And the talk is about much more complex 6th gen jet.

From design freeze to full rate production in 6 years is straight up delusional.
You always bring up the same story promoted by the Anglo-Saxons, but that was during the collapse of the USSR, and in fact the Rafale program was halted at that time, and even I thought it would not be resumed, since the Mirage was not so bad after all. It was an initiative by Chirac after he was elected president that relaunched the Rafale program, but otherwise the first operational aircraft would have been in 1996 instead of 2001, which is the delivery date of the first Rafales to the French Navy.
The delays with Dassault are always due to the government, which has difficulties with military budgets.
 
You always bring up the same story promoted by the Anglo-Saxons, but that was during the collapse of the USSR, and in fact the Rafale program was halted at that time, and even I thought it would not be resumed, since the Mirage was not so bad after all. It was an initiative by Chirac after he was elected president that relaunched the Rafale program, but otherwise the first operational aircraft would have been in 1996 instead of 2001, which is the delivery date of the first Rafales to the French Navy.
The delays with Dassault are always due to the government, which has difficulties with military budgets.
*Would* have been.

So you are saying rafale project due to gov. Causing delays was delayed, hence we can ASSUME what its actual delivery date would have been, which french navy expect to be 1996.

Hence rafale project cannot be reliably used as a Guage for time line of FCAS assuming no delays from Gov. Side excluding the fact that FCAS is supposed to be a much more highly complex plane than rafale ever was.
 
*Would* have been.

So you are saying rafale project due to gov. Causing delays was delayed, hence we can ASSUME what its actual delivery date would have been, which french navy expect to be 1996.

Hence rafale project cannot be reliably used as a Guage for time line of FCAS assuming no delays from Gov. Side excluding the fact that FCAS is supposed to be a much more highly complex plane than rafale ever was.
It's not every day that the USSR collapses: we didn't even know if this aircraft would be useful anymore. Dassault does not only have the Rafale as a reference, it has 75 years of on-time delivery.
 
Dassault must retain full system design authority, with India being a true strategic partner rather than a co-manager of specifications.

Unrealistic to a certain extent.

Given the scale of Indian requirements (150–250 aircraft), an Indian contribution of €10–15 billion, spread over 10–12 years, would be both reasonable and sustainable.

One of the biggest reasons why FGFA ended was 'cause workshare had dropped from 50-50 to 85-15.

The point of a JV is not to merely get a jet but to also develop the R&D capacity of the industry. If the JV only sees India paying money and sit out of the R&D phase, then that's no longer a JV, it's just license production with a ridiculous upfront cost. We can instead opt for a Rafale-type deal after it's ready instead.

3. Timeline​

Assuming a partnership initiated in 2028–2029, a realistic schedule would be:
  • 2030: architecture definition and design freeze
  • 2032–2033: first prototype flight
  • 2035–2036: initial operational capability
  • Post-2036: full-rate production and upgrades
This timeline is ambitious but credible, particularly given Dassault’s track record with Rafale.

Seems quite unrealistic. 2026 to 2030 is not enough time to sign an agreement, create IAF-specific requirements, and then finish design. It will take at least 3 years to negotiate and create specs and then 3 more years to design and validate before the first prototype begins construction. 2035 is the bare minimum for first flight, and even that's pushing it quite a bit.

Maybe France can pull this off, but FGFA also came with a 2010-15 service entry proposition for the PAK FA S1.

  • Significant access to software and system interfaces
Certain highly sensitive technologies would remain protected, but the level of sovereignty would be far superior to F-35-type arrangements.

Highly doubt this will happen. That's why I proposed separate, independent avionics.

7. Final thought​

Such a program would require political courage on both sides.
But in a world where alliances are increasingly transactional, a Franco-Indian FCAS would be one of the few truly sovereign airpower projects possible.

If both sides are willing to think long-term rather than program-by-program, the scenario you describe is not only possible — it may be one of the most rational options available.

If India's participation is only to be a piggy bank, then it won't work out.

Both countries will require full strategic autonomy. This is not possible within the contours of this deal. Even FGFA saw the Russians having their own version called PAK FA and Russia-India sharing the FGFA alone for India and exports. So only the Russian version was truly sovereign.

So France will have to develop SCAF on their own, get the airframe and engine ready and then both countries build separate paths for avionics while India pays a much smaller amount for the development of the airframe and engine. I don't see France sharing IP across the board just 'cause we pay 50% of the full development bill.
 
It's not every day that the USSR collapses: we didn't even know if this aircraft would be useful anymore. Dassault does not only have the Rafale as a reference, it has 75 years of on-time delivery.
As we go more and more deep in past, the aircraft become more and more simpler.

Complexity is increasing exponentially and standards of testing becoming more rigorous.



Even the supposed size of FCAS at ~30tons mtow with 2 120kn engines, is just too small for the capability envisioned for 6th gen, as the main control node and high electrical & cooling requirements as basic.
Along with decent future upgrade potential, you expect this type of strategic investment to remain relevant for decades.

Minimum SU57's size Even for a smaller 6th gen( ~35tons mtow)

GCAP is pushing 40+tons mtow, f47 looks about the same.

AMCA already is reaching 27tons mtow, near FCAS's current projection.


Plus ASN4G will need SU57 sized jet minimum to carry internally .