PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

This kind of bullying may work against Algeria(or not!), but certainly not against India. We had two options:

1. 114 F16Vs as MRFA with 60 F-35s as 5th gen stop-gap.

V/s

2. 114 Rafale as MRFA with 60 Su-57I as 5th gen stop-gap.

With IAF selecting 114 Rafales, it's clear which direction we're headed towards and there ain't a thing Uncle Sam can do about it.

IMO , if GoI is determined to get the Su-57 , they'd be signing a huge deal with the US for defence & purchase of oil & NG among other items.

That bonanza defence deal has been pending since Irish Joe's last year in office. I can think of the Predator drones , additional P-8i , MH-60 R hptrs & so on , top of my head.

This should succeed the signing of the FTA & possibly us hosting the Quad with Trump in attendance. This would be a trade off against the US invoking CAATSA .

The argument in public would be our deal with the Russians preceded the passage of CAATSA by the Congress , hence this Act doesn't apply to us which is a fact besides India not seeing itself bound by unilateral pieces of legislation by other countries unless it's by a globally recognised body like the UN.

In any case this will follow the signing of the contract for Rafales. There has never been any sense of urgency with which the MoD / GoI has operated especially under placeholders like the current incumbent. Why should there be any now ?

Besides we aren't getting it in any case by 2030. All our preparations are geared towards taking on the Chinese in 2040. There's still 14 years to go for 2040. Plenty of time on our hands.

Alhamdulillah !

 

[TARGET]

The number of ac in service is not known, though. Any claims from Rostec/UAC need to be taken with a pinch of salt. They are desperate for sales. Although they may be deliberately keeping things under wraps for wartime opsec reasons.

Foriegn interest in the Su-57 has dried up because of Caatsa and other geopolitical/trade factors.

Iirc, Indonesia has given up on plans to buy Su-30/35 family ac under US pressure and opted for the Rafale. The Malaysians were similarly considering whether to keep or retire their MKMs.

India is the Su-57s only hope of redemption in the international market. And we too are out of options now. The F-35 is dead. KF-21 et all are direct competitors to the AMCA.

But if we end up with the Su-57, we must extract our pound of flesh from the Russians in terms of cryogenic rocket motor tech, metallurgy, REE, hypersonics, n-sub tech, et all.

IMO, After the AMCA proposal where HAL is out, the Su57 will be HAL's last hope to remain relevant for the next decade, especially in the 5th generation fighter program, and the Su57 will serve as the backup plan for the 5th gen fighter jet for IAF, as there might be some hiccups or delays from private consortiums. And if Dassault starts building the Rafale in India, they will also propose to make the FCAS in India. So, HAL is left with the SU57 Order.

 

[Speedster1]

IMO, After the AMCA proposal where HAL is out, the Su57 will be HAL's last hope to remain relevant for the next decade, especially in the 5th generation fighter program, and the Su57 will serve as the backup plan for the 5th gen fighter jet for IAF, as there might be some hiccups or delays from private consortiums. And if Dassault starts building the Rafale in India, they will also propose to make the FCAS in India. So, HAL is left with the SU57 Order.

Very likely. HAL could also be brought in as a consultant by the team that ultimately wins AMCA. We don't yet know the workshare allocation of the existing partners in the respective consortiums. So, HAL might eventually take on some of the mfg work as well.

As regards the Su-57, I'd imagine the IAF would have completed its evaluation of the ac since Aero India '25. We should finally get some clarity on numbers, config, delivery schedules, etc.

 

[TARGET]

Very likely. HAL could also be brought in as a consultant by the team that ultimately wins AMCA. We don't yet know the workshare allocation of the existing partners in the respective consortiums. So, HAL might eventually take on some of the mfg work as well.

As regards the Su-57, I'd imagine the IAF would have completed its evaluation of the ac since Aero India '25. We should finally get some clarity on numbers, config, delivery schedules, etc.

I agree, this isn't the production order for AMCA, this bidding is solely for the creation of 5 prototypes of AMCA. However, the winner of the prototyping phase will secure the major manufacturing order, and HAL will be the backup plan with IAF to ensure safety against any single vendor issues.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Very likely. HAL could also be brought in as a consultant by the team that ultimately wins AMCA. We don't yet know the workshare allocation of the existing partners in the respective consortiums. So, HAL might eventually take on some of the mfg work as well.

As regards the Su-57, I'd imagine the IAF would have completed its evaluation of the ac since Aero India '25. We should finally get some clarity on numbers, config, delivery schedules, etc.

I agree, this isn't the production order for AMCA, this bidding is solely for the creation of 5 prototypes of AMCA. However, the winner of the prototyping phase will secure the major manufacturing order, and HAL will be the backup plan with IAF to ensure safety against any single vendor issues.

It's more likely you're going to see the hollowing out of HAL like Titan hollowed out HMT. Already there's an exodus from DRDO & HAL to the pvt sector. Expect it to be accelerated as time goes by .

A good example is Prashant Bhadoria who was in charge of the HTT 40 project & having successfully completed it was made in charge of the Rotary UAV project for the IA / IAF . He quit to join TASL & we don't know what happened to that project since.

You'd see plenty of such examples in the future.

 

[TARGET]

It's more likely you're going to see the hollowing out of HAL like Titan hollowed out HMT. Already there's an exodus from DRDO & HAL to the pvt sector. Expect it to be accelerated as time goes by .

A good example is Prashant Bhadoria who was in charge of the HTT 40 project & having successfully completed it was made in charge of the Rotary UAV project for the IA / IAF . He quit to join TASL & we don't know what happened to that project since.

You'd see plenty of such examples in the future.

If it's true, it will be beneficial for the Indian aeronautical industry; I don't believe HAL will decline anytime soon... The issue with HAL is that it won't provide commissions or party funds, which private companies typically do. Additionally, a significant setback in the current situation is the tendency to provide timelines without being truthful. They should offer accurate timelines and clarify dependencies, but after so many years in government, nodding heads in agreement for everything has become a habit.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2019602502354866619

Su-57 for India: US Warns Of CAATSA Sanctions Over Russian Stealth Jets!


Robert Palladino, the US State Department’s Middle East affairs officer, stated at a meeting of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee that the arms deals with Russia are “very concerning” and could lead to US sanctions against Algeria under #CAATSA.


Now, India is reportedly exploring the acquisition of 2-3 squadrons of Russian jets for the #IndianAirForce.


Will the US CAATSA sanctions impact India?


Full Story: eurasiantimes.com/su-57-u-s-thre…


#IndianAirForce @IAF_MCC @HALHQBLR @Chopsyturvey #Su57 @UAC_Russia_eng

Here's what we're likely to be up against if we don't strike a deal with Dolund first.

 

[_Anonymous_]

If it's true, it will be beneficial for the Indian aeronautical industry; I don't believe HAL will decline anytime soon...

How will it be beneficial for the Indian aeronautical ecosystem when you're merely seeing a transfer of trained & experienced personnel from one organization to another ? That's called poaching in modern HR terminology.


It'd be beneficial to the aeronautical ecosystem only if these new organisations springing up take in people fresh out of engineering colleges or ITI's & train them before deploying them for work.

I don't see this happening at all or at the scale at which it should given our industrialists are primarily rent seekers. They'd go out of their way to cut essential infrastructure investment as they view it as expenditure which is the head under which all such training activities come under.

The issue with HAL is that it won't provide commissions or party funds, which private companies typically do. Additionally, a significant setback in the current situation is the tendency to provide timelines without being truthful. They should offer accurate timelines and clarify dependencies, but after so many years in government, nodding heads in agreement for everything has become a habit.

This is more a lack of PR part of the legacy of all monopoly cos especially DPSU's . That's easily taken care of when the entire organization is more professionally oriented & run.

 

[Speedster1]

A good example is Prashant Bhadoria who was in charge of the HTT 40 project & having successfully completed it was made in charge of the Rotary UAV project for the IA / IAF . He quit to join TASL & we don't know what happened to that project since.

The RUAV was initially conceived for naval applications as an unmanned version of the Chetak/Alouette-3. Since then, the IN has moved on to the Schiebel Camcopter S-100. This bird is now being built under license in India by VEM Tech.

Aero India 2023: Scheibel, VEM pitch Camcopter S-100 to Indian Navy

Schiebel Systems India and VEM Technologies have showcased the Camcopter S-100 unmanned aircraft system (UAS) featuring the script of the Indian Navy and the roundel of...

www.janes.com

I'd say there's a good chance the IA will eventually go the same route. Incidentally, Camcopter has a comparable service cieling of 5500m, making it suitable for ops in Siachen, et al.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The RUAV was initially conceived for naval applications as an unmanned version of the Chetak/Alouette-3. Since then, the IN has moved on to the Schiebel Camcopter S-100. This bird is now being built under license in India by VEM Tech.

Aero India 2023: Scheibel, VEM pitch Camcopter S-100 to Indian Navy

Schiebel Systems India and VEM Technologies have showcased the Camcopter S-100 unmanned aircraft system (UAS) featuring the script of the Indian Navy and the roundel of...

www.janes.com

I'd say there's a good chance the IA will eventually go the same route. Incidentally, Camcopter has a comparable service cieling of 5500m, making it suitable for ops in Siachen, et al.

What you're referring to is another project which was to be undertaken by HAL & IAI IIRC which didn't fructify , for reasons I've forgotten. That's different from the RUAV 200.

This project in question was supposedly headed by Bhadoria after the successful development of the HTT-40 . Subsequently he joined TASL & since then we haven't heard of this project .

In between came news of the IN opting for Schliebel & following the JV with VEM churning out products , it's safe to assume the RUAV 200 has been put into the cold storage.

Eventually it'd be cancelled. Now whether HAL should've gotten into this project itself is questionable. After all aerospace engineering is a vast sector. You can't be into mfg micro light aircraft at one end of the spectrum & also be into 5th Gen FA .

There's something called core competencies. Every organisation identifies it , focuses on it & builds it's business around it . This is something HAL hasn't quite resolved. Part of the problem has been the GoI which has always gone to HAL treating it as a one stop solution for anything & everything connected to aerospace engineering.

Today that same GoI is hell-bent on cutting HAL down to size & HAL has no idea how to respond. While its order books remain healthy as of now , I don't think this would be the case in a few years time especially once they've delivered both tranches of the Mk-1a.

I'm coming around to the idea off late , the reason IAF isn't supportive of the various programmes HAL is running in house viz the HTSE , the HTFE , CATS Warrior , now the HLFT project & so on can also be traced to the antagonism IAF has traditionally had against HAL which is now enhanced given tacit government support.

They're probably seeking solutions from the pvt sector like what you've had with the Schliebel Camcopter & its JV with VEM Technologies.

What can be said about this move or mindset
of the IAF when the IN has teamed up with New Space for development of a CCA but the agency incharge of guarding our skies has no such plan nor any proposal in the pipeline ?!

Is it myopia or cutting the nose to spite the face ? Either way our future plans for air warfare are murky.

 

[Speedster1]

I'm coming around to the idea off late , the reason IAF isn't supportive of the various programmes HAL is running in house viz the HTSE , the HTFE , CATS Warrior , now the HLFT project & so on can also be traced to the antagonism IAF has traditionally had against HAL which is now enhanced given tacit government support.

In some cases, the IAFs stance can even be justified. For example, when HAL decided to develop HTT-40 despite the IAF indicating it wanted more Pilatus PC-7 BTAs.

Imo, it was a needless duplication of effort when key progs like HJT-36 and Mk1A were interminably delayed.

Frankly, placing orders for both these jets based on nothing but mere assurances was a leap of faith for the IAF.

HAL failed to deliver the ac to SOP ( although for reasons not entirely of its doing -GE supply chain issues, et al).

There is no culture of incremental dev in the IAF which is clear from some of the recent statements of some ex-servicemen on SM.

Now, there are reports of a formal review of the Mk1A prog at AHQ, even as 114 Rafale gets close to signing.

Otoh, the IAF didn't see it fit to delay deliveries of its Rafale until ISE integration was complete. Different yardsticks for local products and imports.

 

[_Anonymous_]

In some cases, the IAFs stance can even be justified. For example, when HAL decided to develop HTT-40 despite the IAF indicating it wanted more Pilatus PC-7 BTAs.

Let's go back to first principles. Why wouldn't HAL propose the HTT-40 to its only captive customer especially since the predecessor to the HTT-40 was designed & mfgd by HAL.

Why did the project have a long gestation period ? Coz HAL was rebuilding capacities it lost when ADA was carved out of it .

To those who question why didn't HAL rebuild those capacities before undertaking such a project , I'd like to remind them HAL wasn't an autonomous organization then. It still isn't much to everyone's surprise.

The baboos running the show at South Block would never have permitted the setting up of a design team which'd involve mass recruitment & training which'd then would affect the topline & bottomline of HAL's balance sheet .

Result - they had to learn on the job which they did at the cost of the IAF & of the nation's security.

This is the long & short of it. It's very easy & lazy to blame HAL. Not that they're not to blame or can & have evaded scrutiny & accountability but being avid defence aficionados since long the least we can do is analyse the chain of events to arrive at the right conclusion. Above all we owe it to ourselves.

Imo, it was a needless duplication of effort when key progs like HJT-36 and Mk1A were interminably delayed.

Frankly, placing orders for both these jets based on nothing but mere assurances was a leap of faith for the IAF.

Answered this above.

HAL failed to deliver the ac to SOP ( although for reasons not entirely of its doing -GE supply chain issues, et al).

Check out for how long the negotiations were dragged for the first tranche of the Mk-1a , when was the CCS approval obtained , when did the signing of the agreement take place & more importantly when was the advance forwarded to HAL & you'd have your answer for why were things delayed when placing the order for F-404 TFs with GE ?!

There is no culture of incremental dev in the IAF which is clear from some of the recent statements of some ex-servicemen on SM.

Now, there are reports of a formal review of the Mk1A prog at AHQ, even as 114 Rafale gets close to signing.

Otoh, the IAF didn't see it fit to delay deliveries of its Rafale until ISE integration was complete. Different yardsticks for local products and imports.

It's at times like this the loss of a technocrat like MP is felt. The present incumbent is a chutia warming the seat with no technical knowledge nor any inclination to learn , totally unaware of the complexities of defence & the MIC , led by the nose by the babooodumb & who's content playing the placeholder since 2019 till the time another placeholder replaces him.

It's quite clear the IAF is living in it's own world . There's no need for them to change as there's no pressure on them to change. Right now the top brass at Vayu Bhavan is on top of the world.

Their long cherished dream of acquiring the Rafales is coming true , HAL is being cut down to size , the pvt sector is being involved in a big way & there's nobody questioning them on their future plans.

Just as we get the rulers we deserve , we also get the defenders we deserve.

 

[Speedster1]

Let's go back to first principles. Why wouldn't HAL propose the HTT-40 to its only captive customer especially since the predecessor to the HTT-40 was designed & mfgd by HAL.

Why stop at building a PC-7 equivalent? Why not leapfrog to something in the PC-21 class (Stage 1+ 2 trainer)? The IAF would've wholeheartedly supported it, given the impact of delays on its training prog.

Iirc, the IAF had already ordered some ~75 HJT-36 back in the day. At worst, they would've converted some of those slots to this (hypothetical) bird.

Result - they had to learn on the job which they did at the cost of the IAF & of the nation's security.

HAL had lmited resources to begin with. This wasn't going to make matters any easier for them. Only thing HTT-40 has going for it is that it can be readily converted into an armed COIN/CUAS platform, without permission from a foriegn govt.

Check out for how long the negotiations were dragged for the first tranche of the Mk-1a , when was the CCS approval obtained , when did the signing of the agreement take place & more importantly when was the advance forwarded to HAL & you'd have your answer for why were things delayed when placing the order for F-404 TFs with GE ?!

Imo, the IAF could've atleast stockpiled additional F404s as war wastage reserves. A few 100 for use during the winter, if you will. HAL couldn't be bothered about it as it is a sarkari company. Too late now.

 

[spice]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2025777618138579375

 

[spice]

Sukhoi-57 India’s first fifth-gen jet ‘choice’ to counter Dragon - The Tribune

After clearing the Rafale jet deal with France, India is now set to formalise the procurement of a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet, with the Sukhoi-57 from Russia emerging as the first choice. The jet had made a flying demonstration at Aero India in Bengaluru in February last year.

www.tribuneindia.com

After clearing the Rafale jet deal with France, India is now set to formalise the procurement of a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet, with the Sukhoi-57 from Russia emerging as the first choice. The jet had made a flying demonstration at Aero India in Bengaluru in February last year.

The Ministry of Defence and the IAF discussed the immediate need for having a fifth-generation jet due to China’s growing fleet, sources said. China has operational fifth-generation jets — the J-20 and the J-35. It has promised to give these to Pakistan. It was the first “sop” Beijing announced for Islamabad after the India-Pakistan conflict in May last year. The Russian Sukhoi-57 is the first choice as a stopgap arrangement till India’s own fifth-generation jet — the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) — is ready in 10 years from now.

The US option of a fifth-generation jet — the F-35 — is not being considered as India fears US restrictions on operating such a plane. Among the restrictions could include non-integration of Indian weapons on board. The existing IAF fleet of Sukhoi-30MKI jets have mated even the BrahMos and was used in Operation Sindoor. Without the integration, India will be forced to buy costly arsenal from western nations.

The restrictions US has imposed on the Pakistan Air Force for the F-16 jests was cited by the sources, saying each sortie is monitored by the US. Engineers from the US are based in Pakistan airbases even for routine maintenance.

Ironically, in February last year, US President Donald Trump, at a joint press conference with Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Washington DC, had said, “We will be increasing military sales to India by many billions of dollars. We are also paving the way to ultimately provide India with F-35 stealth fighters”.

Another option weighing in favour of the Russian offer is the commonality of maintenance the Sukhoi-57 will have with the Sukhoi-30MKI. The Russians have made an offer of the Sukhoi-57. A team came and saw the facilities available at the Nashik unit of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

“We are yet to start negotiations with the Russians; that will happen once IAF teams take a deep dive into what all is on offer,” the sources said.

 

[Rajput Lion]

This 40 jet deal is going to be precursor of 100+ locally assembled/manufactured 2-seat Su-57MKI variant.

 

[spice]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2025807329158209896

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

> F-35 is USA's PET JET "sit, go fetch, roll..." or like a RC toy So it cannot be bought. Moreover it is too much to be absorbed by current state of our MIC.
> Su-57 should be looked at not as 5gen but better than Su-30MKI.
> If LCA can be inflated to MWF, them AMCA can be inflated to AHCA, can be navalised, can be pumped up to 6gen level.
> If Russia allows modification of Su-57 airframe then it can act as precursor or TD of clean-sheet 6gen jet.
> LCA should be produced till MWF ready, MWF till AMCA ready.
> Hopefully 5+gen TEDBF (indicated by IN) can also stem from AMCA or Su-57, depends on designer.

 

[Speedster1]

This 40 jet deal is going to be precursor of 100+ locally assembled/manufactured 2-seat Su-57MKI variant.

Based on the RAM/RAP and canopy coating tech developed for AMCA, how feasible would a Silent Eagle avatar of the MKI UPG be?

Enclosed weapons pods, chined FSS radome should be doable. Canted tail fins, probably too risky.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Based on the RAM/RAP and canopy coating tech developed for AMCA, how feasible would a Silent Eagle avatar of the MKI UPG be?

Incoming for future variants. We have developed Nano metamaterials based coating, which shall significantly reduce its loaded RCS. Not Silent Eagle like but still quite decent(Boeing claimed F-35 like frontal RCS for SE, lol).

Enclosed weapons pods, chined FSS radome should be doable. Canted tail fins, probably too risky.

Look at what Chinese have done with J-15T. It has got slanted Radome like that of stealth fighters. All of the above is excellent idea. But I think IAF would choose the safer option of composite materials and RAM coatings rather than Canted tails. EWP should be pursued too, maybe if Russians in future develop something for Su-35S, then maybe we could also join the bandwagon