Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis

I hope its true , although how the RF seeker would discriminate a particular vent from surroundings without EO data feed I do not know.
Once you ask the rightful question, same people would cite information being classified. As a hardened buried target Brahmos would be the natural choice but entry thru a 45cm shaft part is doubtful though can still happen.

Some part in the above post is obviously absolute horsecrap being fed to counter the equal measure of horsecrap disinfo by the pak side over social media since, as goes the proverb.
The DRDO SCAN seeker on Brahmos is an imaging monopulse radar seeker unlike the original Russian one. It's target discrimination capability must be close to SAR quality to allow such precision.

Feast your eyes on this

 
The DRDO SCAN seeker on Brahmos is an imaging monopulse radar seeker unlike the original Russian one. It's target discrimination capability must be close to SAR quality to allow such precision.

Feast your eyes on this

A 45 cm vent precision target capability requires much more higher res imaging , a very precise algo to remove the clutter around from ground and given its not hitting from side rather diving down from a height makes me doubt about the targeting part. It can definitely target, but not sure if exactly the way it is described.

About the imaging part, yes we have already seen the test footage once before, where the ship target from the block 1 version with the ship image acquired and created by the seeker was shown, perhaps the only time they showed the seeker feed image. Normally all pres they show only the ship is hit and drowning.
 
Geopolitically will ruffle trump's feathers.

But operationally will be a balanced compromise between ordering 100+ su57 with local production which can endanger amca program due to lack of money and between not having any limited but significant manned stealth capability for tip of the role spear role until ~2040s.

Like, initial su57's delivered all went to training squadrons and experimenting squadrons not directly to combat squadron, those initial su57's are also used to test cooperation with drones, cca's and flying wings, to test weapons, to test network Centric warfare, to train to fight utilizing all those.
That's the fate of initial squadron, not immediate effective combat capabilities just because delivery began.

We need France to commit to New engine program for AMCA which may require to sign 114 Rafels
Already 220 MK1 and MK1A orders are going to be placed.
if GE 414 goes through we may get some 100+ MK2 too
Super sukhoi upgrade
Plus AWACS +c17 + C295
All these costs money

so buying SU57 in 100+ probably out of budget
also with SU 57 definitively there is a chance of sanctions from west unlike buying oil and selling it to keep oil price low, buying a fighter jet will not be tolerated, we barely escaped for S400 and there was no Ukraine war at that time.

So mostly AMCA MK1 will be our first 5th gen / stealth manned air craft.
 
A 45 cm vent precision target capability requires much more higher res imaging , a very precise algo to remove the clutter around from ground and given its not hitting from side rather diving down from a height makes me doubt about the targeting part. It can definitely target, but not sure if exactly the way it is described.

About the imaging part, yes we have already seen the test footage once before, where the ship target from the block 1 version with the ship image acquired and created by the seeker was shown, perhaps the only time they showed the seeker feed image. Normally all pres they show only the ship is hit and drowning.
Brahmos B3 is designed for steep terminal dive at 90 deg angles. The Scan seeker is hi-res IMR and since it was a fixed target, the co-ordinates would have been pre-programmed at launch (via Cartosat land elevation data, etc). Brahmos is anyway claimed to have 1m CEP.
 
Brahmos B3 is designed for steep terminal dive at 90 deg angles. The Scan seeker is hi-res IMR and since it was a fixed target, the co-ordinates would have been pre-programmed at launch (via Cartosat land elevation data, etc). Brahmos is anyway claimed to have 1m CEP.
The only issue to be considered then is whether the Brahmos has been designed for deep penetration of say > 80 feet at which depth those hardened underground shelters may have been located.

Tried looking for such data online to corroborate Brahmos strikes on those underground shelters . Didn't come across any .

Now unless we're discussing state secrets .....
 
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The only issue to be considered then is whether the Brahmos has been designed for deep penetration of say > 80 feet at which depth those hardened underground shelters may have been located.

Tried looking for such data online to corroborate Brahmos strikes on those underground shelters . Didn't come across any .

Now unless we're discussing state secrets .....
Na, even with a penetrating warhead brahmos ain't penetratiing anywhere near 80feet of concrete.
That's the most likely reason why an air vent opening was chosen instead.
 
Na, even with a penetrating warhead brahmos ain't penetratiing anywhere near 80feet of concrete.
That's the most likely reason why an air vent opening was chosen instead.
Even with the air vent opening , how far is the Brahmos designed to travel in a sheer vertical 90° angle perpendicular path ? And is there any provision for a delayed blast ?
 
Even with the air vent opening , how far is the Brahmos designed to travel in a sheer vertical 90° angle perpendicular path ? And is there any provision for a delayed blast ?
Its shear kinetic impact plus the 400kgs of explosives are enough to create a blast effect in an underground facility equivalent to a mini nuke. The blast would have completely sucked out the oxygen from the structure ensuring everyone dies inside it and create a vaccum effect for the structure to collapse inwards.
 
Na, even with a penetrating warhead brahmos ain't penetratiing anywhere near 80feet of concrete.
That's the most likely reason why an air vent opening was chosen instead.
It need to penetrate, idea with this type attack is after the initial penetration the blast effect do the rest of the job, that is why pcb warhead. The video of hit in test cases shown in many ppt pres, you can remember the one in Andaman with the flag and Brahmos hit. The hit without warhead showed large crate in the middle and the one with warhead pretty much distorted the entire 30m x 20m (or greater) area

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the only part I doubt is the going thru the vent part, because a 45 cm vent is damn small object to classify and separate from the ground clutter by the seeker that is closing in at very high velocity. Usually such missions are either paired with another weapon that has tv/video or EO based guidance scheme for the terminal impact, or a cruise missile that usually loiter around to acquire target vent precisely then close in, for penetration the usual broaching warhead works as alternative to high kinetic impact of brahmos.
It can even be that Brahmos did the job and then still a spike ER with EO feed was used through the hole caused by Brahmos as double tap option. This would be overkill of course given the air launched version has significant 300kg warhead enough for the job at the first time asking.
 
if the coordinates are known and fed into its sat nav?
Co-ordinate is not the issue, finding that vent in the terminal phase by the seeker closing in at such high speed is. I am not very sure on that. It is possible the seeker can do this precisely due to very good accurate seeker algorithm programming, which makes Brahmos so lethal.

There are plenty of aesa seeker algorithm related paper by drdo and desi academia , search and read about the problem faced for target acquisition around it, i think it will be easier to understand about the challenges faced and why very good algorithm programs are hard to develop.
 
It need to penetrate, idea with this type attack is after the initial penetration the blast effect do the rest of the job, that is why pcb warhead. The video of hit in test cases shown in many ppt pres, you can remember the one in Andaman with the flag and Brahmos hit. The hit without warhead showed large crate in the middle and the one with warhead pretty much distorted the entire 30m x 20m (or greater) area

View attachment 46148View attachment 46149
View attachment 46150View attachment 46152

the only part I doubt is the going thru the vent part, because a 45 cm vent is damn small object to classify and separate from the ground clutter by the seeker that is closing in at very high velocity. Usually such missions are either paired with another weapon that has tv/video or EO based guidance scheme for the terminal impact, or a cruise missile that usually loiter around to acquire target vent precisely then close in, for penetration the usual broaching warhead works as alternative to high kinetic impact of brahmos.
It can even be that Brahmos did the job and then still a spike ER with EO feed was used through the hole caused by Brahmos as double tap option. This would be overkill of course given the air launched version has significant 300kg warhead enough for the job at the first time asking.
We are forgetting that, the nur Khan base video had two detonation sounds, difference on only couple of seconds apart eachother
 
It need to penetrate, idea with this type attack is after the initial penetration the blast effect do the rest of the job, that is why pcb warhead. The video of hit in test cases shown in many ppt pres, you can remember the one in Andaman with the flag and Brahmos hit. The hit without warhead showed large crate in the middle and the one with warhead pretty much distorted the entire 30m x 20m (or greater) area

View attachment 46148View attachment 46149
View attachment 46150View attachment 46152

the only part I doubt is the going thru the vent part, because a 45 cm vent is damn small object to classify and separate from the ground clutter by the seeker that is closing in at very high velocity. Usually such missions are either paired with another weapon that has tv/video or EO based guidance scheme for the terminal impact, or a cruise missile that usually loiter around to acquire target vent precisely then close in, for penetration the usual broaching warhead works as alternative to high kinetic impact of brahmos.
It can even be that Brahmos did the job and then still a spike ER with EO feed was used through the hole caused by Brahmos as double tap option. This would be overkill of course given the air launched version has significant 300kg warhead enough for the job at the first time asking.
Penetrating the vent of such small dimensions is one part of the problem but traveling along it quite another. The vents in question are shaped like an inverted L . It's something like this 👇risers-big-500x500.jpg

Although this is a riser for a clean room with air diffused within the conditioned room from the bottom , air is supplied to the riser from the top. This is as close as I can get in order to pictorially depict an air vent .

You can see the protrusion at the top. Except in case of air vents those protrusions are more pronounced & look like an inverted L from the side view.

Now the Brahmos has to penetrate at an angle perpendicular to the top of the said air vent & then perform a deep dive at right angles to its entry & travel down the length of the vent before exploding at the desired depth.

How's it possible ?! I've been trying to rack my brains ever since I first came across this bit of news. The air vent being 45 & 45 cms doesn't lend itself to the kind of contortions the Brahmos would've to perform to enter the vent & then take a path perpendicular to its entry to travel the length of the air vent before arriving at the designated point where it's meant to explode.

There's something we aren't getting right here assuming the Brahmos was indeed used to blow up the underground C&C at Nur Khan Bholari & other ABs .

I'm of the impression the first strike to blow up the vents & lay it bare must have been the task of some other munition perhaps an LGB before the Brahmos was deployed to enter into the now prised open vent coz these ventilation shafts follow the principle of 2:1 where the vent we see ( the air duct essentially ) is the supply air side where atmospheric air is drawn in & supplied within the conditioned room & the surrounding space acts as the return air which is twice the size of the supply air duct from where the air within the room is expelled out to the atmosphere thus ensuring proper ventilation thru supply of fresh air within the conditioned space.
 
Penetrating the vent of such small dimensions is one part of the problem but traveling along it quite another. The vents in question are shaped like an inverted L . It's something like this 👇View attachment 46172

Although this is a riser for a clean room with air diffused within the conditioned room from the bottom , air is supplied to the riser from the top. This is as close as I can get in order to pictorially depict an air vent .

You can see the protrusion at the top. Except in case of air vents those protrusions are more pronounced & look like an inverted L from the side view.

Now the Brahmos has to penetrate at an angle perpendicular to the top of the said air vent & then perform a deep dive at right angles to its entry & travel down the length of the vent before exploding at the desired depth.

How's it possible ?! I've been trying to rack my brains ever since I first came across this bit of news. The air vent being 45 & 45 cms doesn't lend itself to the kind of contortions the Brahmos would've to perform to enter the vent & then take a path perpendicular to its entry to travel the length of the air vent before arriving at the designated point where it's meant to explode.

There's something we aren't getting right here assuming the Brahmos was indeed used to blow up the underground C&C at Nur Khan Bholari & other ABs .

I'm of the impression the first strike to blow up the vents & lay it bare must have been the task of some other munition perhaps an LGB before the Brahmos was deployed to enter into the now prised open vent coz these ventilation shafts follow the principle of 2:1 where the vent we see ( the air duct essentially ) is the supply air side where atmospheric air is drawn in & supplied within the conditioned room & the surrounding space acts as the return air which is twice the size of the supply air duct from where the air within the room is expelled out to the atmosphere thus ensuring proper ventilation thru supply of fresh air within the conditioned space.
To add to the above , the IAF must've had detailed plans of the said C&C without which such precision targeting is impossible for such installations also carry dummy vents meant to misguide .

I hope you realise what that means . Our espionage agencies have penetrated pretty deep within the security establishment of Paxtan.

I also hope you realise we've thrown one of our aces just to get the message across. Usually these aces come in handy during a real war .

What this move would've done is lead Fauji Foundation to re examine all their plans & start from scratch .

This is the reason Operation Sindoor must resume ASAP. We need to take out PAF & PN assets before they regroup re organise plan afresh & come back at us . Strike them when they're down & deal the knock out blow .
 
View attachment 46122

Nur Khan wasn't hit with BrahMos. The turbojet engines were very well audible. NGMMCC was the target that was hit with 2x SCALP Cruise missiles.
1756226913118.png
 
To add to the above , the IAF must've had detailed plans of the said C&C without which such precision targeting is impossible for such installations also carry dummy vents meant to misguide .

I hope you realise what that means . Our espionage agencies have penetrated pretty deep within the security establishment of Paxtan.

I also hope you realise we've thrown one of our aces just to get the message across. Usually these aces come in handy during a real war .

What this move would've done is lead Fauji Foundation to re examine all their plans & start from scratch .

This is the reason Operation Sindoor must resume ASAP. We need to take out PAF & PN assets before they regroup re organise plan afresh & come back at us . Strike them when they're down & deal the knock out blow .
Yeah which is why I doubted the way it is described by ex forces personnel. Such a mission is far more complex and need a lot of input to plan first , then execute the same in such precise manner is definitely way more complex than just sending a Brahmos to do the job all alone. Not discounting any credit for Brahmos, just that it may not be the sole mischief maker like suggested there.

Yes about the ace in hand, which was evident from how quickly pak folded afterward. So obviously one highly trained executable move is disclosed (and battle proven for us) to the enemy. This is one positive for engaging such an enemy high on bluff , once you call that out with your careful move the enemy completely loses it about the next step, it either folds quickly or takes more predictable but rogue route than trying to counter via intelligent mission move. I am sure they will take input from both china and usa & may choose a direct approach next time.