Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[babablacksheep]

It is vexing that inspite of the evolving threats, India has no ALCM or SLCM that have a range of 1000+km in its arsenal. Nirbhay remains in trials and I could not find a concrete timeline for its induction into the forces.

We don't have much need for "air launched" 1000km or more range weapons.
If its gonna be 1000 km or more range we can just launch it from land.
The only domain where it will make sense will be over oceans, but that will be when chinese navy enters in mid2030s and we have sufficient assests to provide midcourse updates for such a weapon to target a moving ship.

 

[Shan]

We don't have much need for "air launched" 1000km or more range weapons.
If its gonna be 1000 km or more range we can just launch it from land.
The only domain where it will make sense will be over oceans, but that will be when chinese navy enters in mid2030s and we have sufficient assests to provide midcourse updates for such a weapon to target a moving ship.

If you take China/BD into consideration and start to plot in terms of maps. LLCM have their advantages for sure. However, SLCMs and ALCMs provide greater operational flexibility as well as quick response capability (including salvo firing if feasible). It will allow you certain advantages when carrying out mass scale retaliation in terms of option availability. You can distribute strike packages over wider assets if you possess both ALCMs and LRLACM. It adds a layer of complexity for the other side when dealing with incoming missiles.

There is no certainty that the PLAAN will take that long to be frank with you. Ask any planner and they would jump at the prospect of a longer range ALCM or SLCM when planning a confrontation with PLA.

1. Long-range SLCMs would allow Indian submarines to strike high-value Chinese targets from safe distances while remaining in friendly or neutral waters. With ranges potentially extending to 1000+ km, these missiles provide the Indian Navy with the ability to threaten Chinese coastal installations, naval bases, and strategic assets without exposing submarines to immediate counter-attack.

2. SLCMs provide significant force multiplication capabilities by allowing a single submarine to engage multiple targets across vast areas. This enhances the Indian Navy's ability to conduct both land-attack missions and anti-ship operations, serving as deterrence platforms that can adapt to various tactical scenarios.

 

[babablacksheep]

. However, SLCMs and ALCMs provide greater operational flexibility as well as quick response capability (including salvo firing if feasible). It will allow you certain advantages when carrying out mass scale retaliation in terms of option availability. You can distribute strike packages over wider assets if you possess both ALCMs and LRLACM. It adds a layer of complexity for the other side when dealing with incoming missiles.

And we'll need that in mid 2030s.

There is no certainty that the PLAAN will take that long to be frank with you.

They need atleast 5 aircraft carriers to still maintain sufficient no. In home and send 2 carrier groups towards India.
China ain't gonna send a single carrier group risking its destruction for causing damage to IN in return in a war scenerio., they will send when they are sure they can sufficiently take on the Indian navy and other combined assets we have deployed in IN region.

Though their carrier group making pass through ION in peace time will start earlier.

these missiles provide the Indian Navy with the ability to threaten Chinese coastal installations, naval bases, and strategic assets without exposing submarines to immediate counter-attack.

Our's are ssk's, for ION.
We ain't risking an ssk sending it away from ION to strike targets.

*Future* SSN's will do it.

SLCMs provide significant force multiplication capabilities by allowing a single submarine to engage multiple targets across vast areas. This enhances the Indian Navy's ability to conduct both land-attack missions and anti-ship operations, serving as deterrence platforms that can adapt to various tactical scenarios.

That force multiplication is not needed right now.
Putting the resources required for it to force multiply land based attack vector is a better option, in our scenerio.

 

[Shan]

That force multiplication is not needed right now.
Putting the resources required for it to force multiply land based attack vector is a better option, in our scenerio.

Agree to disagree. IMO diversification in terms of strike capability cannot come sooner. Certain advantages offered from Sea or Air based ones are hard to ignore and within reach of our capabilities in terms of R&D.

 

[babablacksheep]

Agree to disagree. IMO diversification in terms of strike capability cannot come sooner. Certain advantages offered from Sea or Air based ones are hard to ignore and within reach of our capabilities in terms of R&D.

Hard to ignore only for you.
There's a reason IN and IAF hasn't demanded those 1000 or more km range cruise missiles.
There's a reason upcoming submarine launched cruise missile has 500km range. Not 1000km.

Even upcoming air launched rudram 4 is expected to have ~800km, and it will enter service after 2030.

 

[Shan]

Hard to ignore only for you.
There's a reason IN and IAF hasn't demanded those 1000 or more km range cruise missiles.
There's a reason upcoming submarine launched cruise missile has 500km range. Not 1000km.

Sure. I said in IMO. There are inherent advantages that those types possess that have repeatedly been demonstrated across many theatres of war. There is no denying the operational flexibility and depth of strike that they possess.

 

[marich01]

It is vexing that inspite of the evolving threats, India has no ALCM or SLCM that have a range of 1000+km in its arsenal. Nirbhay remains in trials and I could not find a concrete timeline for its induction into the forces.

Actually they show the coverage as this with Su-30 , from the mainland only.

 

[babablacksheep]

Actually they show the coverage as this with Su-30 , from the mainland only.

View attachment 46158
View attachment 46159

Its all bogus.

Su30 ain't gonna cross chinese border.

 

[Shan]

Actually they show the coverage as this with Su-30 , from the mainland only.

View attachment 46158
View attachment 46159

So let me get this straight - using a Brahmos A, I can target Ningbo (2500 kms) or any eastern coastal city from the NE edge of Indian airspace? That seems to be incorrect when considering the range of the Brahmos A.

 

[babablacksheep]

So let me get this straight - using a Brahmos A, I can target Ningbo (2500 kms) or any eastern coastal city from the NE edge of Indian airspace? That seems to be incorrect when considering the range of the Brahmos A.

Your forgetting our doctrine w.r.t china is defensive.
Any idea to target chinese cities will be thrown out of the window.
Forget about it, until mid2030s, then idea can float and work can start which will yield weapons to target chinese coastal cities/shipyards in 2040s.

 

[marich01]

Its all bogus.

Su30 ain't gonna cross chinese border.

Theoretical reach. No more than that but still valid. Its more in the context of the vast IOR area.

So let me get this straight - using a Brahmos A, I can target Ningbo (2500 kms) or any eastern coastal city from the NE edge of Indian airspace? That seems to be incorrect when considering the range of the Brahmos A.

In theory yes because the moving platform is primarily the Su30 which then launch the vector from an appropriate point to hit the target.
Do not take this in serious land attack coverage, rather take this as a huge deterrent for any maritime vessel that can be the target in the vast IOR area. Flying over international water and sky is permitted.

 

[babablacksheep]

Theoretical reach. No more than that but still valid. Its more in the context of the vast IOR area.

In theory yes because the moving platform is primarily the Su30 which then launch the vector from an appropriate point to hit the target.
Do not take this in serious land attack coverage, rather take this as a huge deterrent for any maritime vessel that can be the target in the vast IOR area. Flying over international water and sky is permitted.

What's the actual combat radius of su30mki while carrying a brahmosA(500KM Range).

Though i heard in a pidcast brahmos has 600km in newer varient *bought* but tauted as 450km.
( newer er varient tested is said to have 800km range)

 

[Shan]

Your forgetting our doctrine w.r.t china is defensive.
Any idea to target chinese cities will be thrown out of the window.
Forget about it, until mid2030s, then idea can float and work can start which will yield weapons to target chinese coastal cities/shipyards in 2040s.

Noted. Interesting....where are these timelines coming from?

 

[babablacksheep]

Noted. Interesting....where are these timelines coming from?

Our economic expected might.

More economy-> more paisa for defense-> more ambitions.

Bigger economy-> bigger balls to take bolder moves from defensive to preemptive.


You can also see this evolution w.r.t. our policy with pakistan.
26/11 response vs operation sindoor, its not just gov. Changes, its also result of economic and military might of india that increased.

 

[CATS @hunter]

Frankly, we do have visionaries in the pvt sector like ex-IAF AM SB Deo, founder of JSR Dynamics who is developing a range of air launched munitions and CMs.

Some have even undergone captive tests on IAF jets. But his entire product range is in the early stages of dev. I favour a consortium approach where companies like DG Propulsion, Tonbo, JSR, Newspace and other startups pool their resources and share IP on a whole range of smart weapons for the IAF and IN with consutancy from ex-DRDO folks.

This approach is the best possible solution out there, you can get EO from the tonbo, engines from the DG propulsion or NAL, AI & OBC tech from the newspace, you are diversifying the chain, you can increase the production & reduce the production time, you can churn as much variant as you want, but how the business model Will work gonna be the main problem

 

[Speedster1]

This approach is the best possible solution out there, you can get EO from the tonbo, engines from the DG propulsion or NAL, AI & OBC tech from the newspace, you are diversifying the chain, you can increase the production & reduce the production time, you can churn as much variant as you want, but how the business model Will work gonna be the main problem

I would imagine a JV company with shareholding split among all partners based on their investment. The company can be run by an experienced CEO reporting to a Board of Directors featuring representatives from all partner companies.

The SPV model could also work with GoI picking up 50% stake and the rest held by the respective partner firms.

 

[RationalGuy]

Resident experts @Ashwin @marich01 @Parthu @Rajput Lion and others what exactly is the Sudarshan Chakra system announced by the PM? Is it a new AD system complete with radars and missile or an integrated network covering vast swaths of India with already developed and developing systems such as Akash, Kusha and S400? And how is it different than our IACCS? Or is possible the Sudarshan Chankra just another name for the final implementation of our BMD program?

 

[Parthu]

Resident experts @Ashwin @marich01 @Parthu @Rajput Lion and others what exactly is the Sudarshan Chakra system announced by the PM? Is it a new AD system complete with radars and missile or an integrated network covering vast swaths of India with already developed and developing systems such as Akash, Kusha and S400? And how is it different than our IACCS? Or is possible the Sudarshan Chankra just another name for the final implementation of our BMD program?

@Arpit made a nice thread about it today:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1960231067006181578

 

[marich01]

I am intrigued by the idea of both the shield & sword part. Maybe the rocket force to be linked with it as a counter-force sort of measure?
Like if you attack us, your action won't go unpunished, sort of like that. An offensive action will follow immediately?
if you test our shield, be prepared for a retaliation.

Now of course mere defence role against such an action by the adversary (neutralising any incoming enemy vector) is ever suffice if you do not take any punitive action.

 

[RationalGuy]

@Arpit made a nice thread about it today:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1960231067006181578

Sir do you think this will be treated as a strategic program like IGMDP and Arihant or it will be run through the typical MoD babucracy? If the former, investing $10-15 billion over 10 years is very reasonable and 2035 deployment is realistic imo.

I am intrigued by the idea of both the shield & sword part. Maybe the rocket force to be linked with it as a counter-force sort of measure?
Like if you attack us, your action won't go unpunished, sort of like that. An offensive action will follow immediately?
if you test our shield, be prepared for a retaliation.

Now of course mere defence role against such an action by the adversary (neutralising any incoming enemy vector) is ever suffice if you do not take any punitive action.

For that we need next gen launch detection satellites, we already seem to be doing great work in the field of ground based long range radars but our space based ISR for missile detection and tracking is still very poor imo, which needs to be rectified for any sort of dome to be a reality.