Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Why the Rampage procurement might make sense considering the future operational environment:

The Rampage missile system represents a significant advancement in precision strike capabilities, offering numerous tactical and operational advantages.

1. One of the system's primary advantages is its impressive range and precision. The missile can engage strategic targets from safe distances, significantly minimizing risks to aircraft and personnel while maintaining accuracy through advanced GPS/INS guidance navigation and anti-jamming capabilities. This standoff capability allows forces to strike high-value targets without entering heavily defended airspace.

2. Rampage's all-weather operational capability ensures reliable performance across diverse environmental conditions, making it suitable for rapid responses against time-critical targets during both day and night operations. This versatility is crucial for modern military operations that require immediate tactical responses.

3. Cost-effectiveness represents another significant advantage, with speed, range, and affordability highlighted as the system's main benefits. The missile's capacity for salvo strikes against multiple high-value targets simultaneously enhances operational efficiency and tactical impact.

4. Considering the needs of the IAF at present, the Rampage has few to no competitors in the global market. Its battle proven performance provides a significant advantage in comparison to other products currently either under testing or in the process of being inducted.

Other products on offer by Euro consortiums are significantly costlier and Indian weapon systems offering similar performance on par with it are still under development.
 
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Other than a salvo firing off the jets, see very little utility myself. That is capability to carry more than one unit of weapon per jet. IAF has been largely old school method follower, just waking up to very long range standoff weapon utility via air delivery platform now & has been hamstrung with variety of jets not delivering all the choice of weapons, rather its sporadic action with Spice ER, Rus air launched weapons are old vintage kh-35 kh-59 etc. Sustaining long bombing campaign via air delivery platform is not going to happen by them unless more sqn numbers become available.

Maybe this is the reason behind the weapon suite drdo is making based on requirement. All of Rudrams, the brahmos NG , TARA SAAW etc, plus the Israeli ones we are buying, each of these you can fit more than 1 unit on a jet, right from LCA mk1 able to carry say 2 rudram 2 each. Then Mk2 will be able to carry 2 R3 or 2 NG or 4 R2 , similar nos for the Israeli weapons Rampage Rocks maybe Air Lora too. So we are not restricted in terms of just 1 brahmos per jet sort of situation.
 
Other than a salvo firing off the jets, see very little utility myself. That is capability to carry more than one unit of weapon per jet. IAF has been largely old school method follower, just waking up to very long range standoff weapon utility via air delivery platform now & has been hamstrung with variety of jets not delivering all the choice of weapons, rather its sporadic action with Spice ER, Rus air launched weapons are old vintage kh-35 kh-59 etc. Sustaining long bombing campaign via air delivery platform is not going to happen by them unless more sqn numbers become available.

Maybe this is the reason behind the weapon suite drdo is making based on requirement. All of Rudrams, tche brahmos NG , TARA SAAW etc, plus the Israeli ones we are buying, each of these you can fit more than 1 unit on a jet, right from LCA mk1 able to carry say 2 rudram 2 each. Then Mk2 will be able to carry 2 R3 or 2 NG or 4 R2 , similar nos for the Israeli weapons Rampage Rocks maybe Air Lora too. So we are not restricted in terms of just 1 brahmos per jet sort of situation.
I initially thought that the Chinese AD would be capable of shooting down this missile as it follows the ballistic trajectory, given its success in the recent conflict, and the standoff range of 250km & less weight, it would be ideal low cost missile which can fired from every aircraft,
As you said earlier the missile is for salvo firing from the jets,

Until the pinaka ALBM comes it will be the mainstay, from the words of CDS the next conflict with pakistan is nearer, they are looking for all guns blazing

1000096357.jpg
 
I initially thought that the Chinese AD would be capable of shooting down this missile as it follows the ballistic trajectory, given its success in the recent conflict, and the standoff range of 250km & less weight, it would be ideal low cost missile which can fired from every aircraft,
As you said earlier the missile is for salvo firing from the jets,

Until the pinaka ALBM comes it will be the mainstay, from the words of CDS the next conflict with pakistan is nearer, they are looking for all guns blazing

View attachment 46117
Till India's weapon systems mature and come into play, I believe the IAI product has merit for procurement. The fact that the IAF can procure the said weapon in a sizeable quantity matters as well. I was a little surprised by the bang for buck it has delivered for IAF. The next conflict will see greater deployment of salvo firing salvo SOWs considering the no. of FAs present in the inventory are significantly less than the planned requirement (as has been mentioned earlier).

Post the Meteor issue, I have started to pay attention to how well the weapon itself suits the aircraft and the network as a whole. Interesting times ahead.
 
I initially thought that the Chinese AD would be capable of shooting down this missile as it follows the ballistic trajectory, given its success in the recent conflict, and the standoff range of 250km & less weight, it would be ideal low cost missile which can fired from every aircraft,
As you said earlier the missile is for salvo firing from the jets,

All weapons systems are built with certain degree of survival capability , be it thru ECCM , or stealth feature fly slow cruise , or pull evasive maneuver or very quick engagement things like that. It comes as a % of probability for shooting down and there will never be 100% probability for either.
In case of a purely ballistic flight path a counter system will be able to compute probable interception points that is all. Whether it is able to react in time and intercept is another factor. With a multiple launch obviously AD systems will be be overloaded.

Whether the user fire a salvo or just 1 or 2 is up to them. Israelis advertise it as up to 4 per jet. We can not yet do the same for Brahmos. Hence the urge to make a smaller dia less weigh missile so Su30 can carry 3.

Until the pinaka ALBM comes it will be the mainstay, from the words of CDS the next conflict with pakistan is nearer, they are looking for all guns blazing
A slim rocket that is barrel launched from a secured static position , it would need much improvement aerodynamically and maybe some change in propulsion motor to be able to fire while in motion , because it would be carried by a jet flying at certain mach no. This method needs high precision, else the rocket will spin and can go anywhere upon the motor ignition.

One major reason most of western stuff are based on turbojet turbofan subsonic is due to this, solid rocket motor is cheaper but need very good experience in handling and developing the whole launch sequence. The Russians are masters of this stuff compared to us.
 
One major reason most of western stuff are based on turbojet turbofan subsonic is due to this, solid rocket motor is cheaper but need very good experience in handling and developing the whole launch sequence. The Russians are masters of this stuff compared to us.
If the Indian private companies were little R&D minded, we could various options for the niche standoff weapons,

Here's the barracuda 250 from the barracuda series from anduril,
Range-250km
Warhead-16kg
Weight-113kg
Ai features
The 500-M, has longer range & 120m endurance capacity, with the drdo powered jet engine SAAW we can have the barracuda category missiles in India, if the big corpo like Adani, Tata, & others would invest a fraction of their screwdriver money on drdo SAAW they can easily make similar long & mid range low cost standoff weapons
1000096893.jpg1000096891.jpg
 
If the Indian private companies were little R&D minded, we could various options for the niche standoff weapons,

Here's the barracuda 250 from the barracuda series from anduril,
Range-250km
Warhead-16kg
Weight-113kg
Ai features
The 500-M, has longer range & 120m endurance capacity, with the drdo powered jet engine SAAW we can have the barracuda category missiles in India, if the big corpo like Adani, Tata, & others would invest a fraction of their screwdriver money on drdo SAAW they can easily make similar long & mid range low cost standoff weapons
View attachment 46135View attachment 46136
A warhead of only 16 kg is very low for a long range missile. This can easily be achieved by even a weaponised Abhyas drone which can carry 16 kg warhead to 400 km range while remaining below 100 kg all up weight. SAAW with jet propulsion can carry 80 kg warhead to 250 km and shall be much more capable than barracuda 250.
 
A warhead of only 16 kg is very low for a long range missile. This can easily be achieved by even a weaponised Abhyas drone which can carry 16 kg warhead to 400 km range while remaining below 100 kg all up weight. SAAW with jet propulsion can carry 80 kg warhead to 250 km and shall be much more capable than barracuda 250.
Yup its a highly glorified jet propulsion SAAW category weapon.
They don't even talk about if it can sea skim like modern day subsonic cruise missiles do as their primary means to survive.

 
If the Indian private companies were little R&D minded, we could various options for the niche standoff weapons,

Here's the barracuda 250 from the barracuda series from anduril,
Range-250km
Warhead-16kg
Weight-113kg
Ai features
The 500-M, has longer range & 120m endurance capacity, with the drdo powered jet engine SAAW we can have the barracuda category missiles in India, if the big corpo like Adani, Tata, & others would invest a fraction of their screwdriver money on drdo SAAW they can easily make similar long & mid range low cost standoff weapons
View attachment 46135View attachment 46136
At those ranges, 16kg warhead launched from aircrafts are not wise. An electromagnetic railgun when fructified can deliver same payload at those ranges. A ramjet powered arty shell can deliver that at half the distance.

Also Indian startups have already built and/or delivered 150+ km range jet powered loitering munitions which essentially are light cruise missiles.
 
If the Indian private companies were little R&D minded, we could various options for the niche standoff weapons,
I do not blame them, defence has always been a very close guarded biz sector & treated as such by the Govt and the establishment alike.
Say you have a ready made solution to a problem which the Govt agency is also working on the same but not been able to solve. If you offer that to the officials/top rank scientists ie PD DPD level people it will not be accepted. Such is the way how deliberately many defence sector related things are considered highly sensitive.

One major reason why you see only relatives and family members of someone within this defence establishment venture into business thru back channel sort of. Visit any Hyderabad based precision tooling small co and you will find they have someone in who helps in getting orders. Its a highly corrupt ecosystem that intentionally discourage pvt player involvement if the player do not have someone from the establishment to leech off deals. Probably second to Mil engg services in terms of intra dealing, you have instances where tenders are filed from a high ranker own office and from same pc ie to get L1 bid price others bid insider info compromised, sometimes same co via sister co filing more bids to get the contract.
 
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A warhead of only 16 kg is very low for a long range missile. This can easily be achieved by even a weaponised Abhyas drone which can carry 16 kg warhead to 400 km range while remaining below 100 kg all up weight. SAAW with jet propulsion can carry 80 kg warhead to 250 km and shall be much more capable than barracuda 250.
Don't see it as a cruise missile, it's more like a loitering drone, what the barracuda 500 brings is the longer range of 800km+, loitering capabilities, autonomous selection targets, endurance of 120, and adaptive changes in flight path from it's AI, and track and lock on the target, again which is something different that you won't see in SAAW,
 
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Don't see it as a cruise missile, it's more like a loitering drone, what the barracuda 500 brings is the longer range of 800km+, loitering capabilities, autonomous selection targets, endurance of 120, and adaptive changes in flight path from it's AI, and track and lock on the target, again which is something different that you won't see in SAAW,
Russian geran can already do all that.
Initial geran were copy of Iranian Shaheed, current ones are generation ahead in autonomous capabilities.

Though there of advantages of its design as it be carried by a helicopter or a male drone.
While Shaheed geran type drones while light enough but are too large in size to be carried.
Though it will also be more expensive than shaheed/geran type drones.
When normal barracuda cost ~200k dollars.
 
It is vexing that inspite of the evolving threats, India has no ALCM or SLCM that have a range of 1000+km in its arsenal. Nirbhay remains in trials and I could not find a concrete timeline for its induction into the forces.
 
2/2 Forgot to attach the map.

Pretty much allows you to target entire South Eastern Pakistan using FAs flown along the western coast.
 

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If the Indian private companies were little R&D minded, we could various options for the niche standoff weapons,

Here's the barracuda 250 from the barracuda series from anduril,
Range-250km
Warhead-16kg
Weight-113kg
Ai features
The 500-M, has longer range & 120m endurance capacity, with the drdo powered jet engine SAAW we can have the barracuda category missiles in India, if the big corpo like Adani, Tata, & others would invest a fraction of their screwdriver money on drdo SAAW they can easily make similar long & mid range low cost standoff weapons
View attachment 46135View attachment 46136
Frankly, we do have visionaries in the pvt sector like ex-IAF AM SB Deo, founder of JSR Dynamics who is developing a range of air launched munitions and CMs.

Some have even undergone captive tests on IAF jets. But his entire product range is in the early stages of dev. I favour a consortium approach where companies like DG Propulsion, Tonbo, JSR, Newspace and other startups pool their resources and share IP on a whole range of smart weapons for the IAF and IN with consutancy from ex-DRDO folks.