Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

[Subgradewalker]

Fighter jets are one type of system.
Other systems are vital too, doctrine is vital too, so is tactic.
Improving these will greatly enchance our operational success and effectiveness, and overdeveloping certain capabilities can compensate somewhat for lack in certain other capabilities.

Yeah. My focus was for short term. Like not going for importing 5th gen and wait for AMCA.
And be more advanced in other things.

Perhaps use MUMT concept, with UAV working as a forward radar.. 5th gen is so potent cause of stealth na.. so if you send an unmanned wingman to "scout" and detect, maybe you can get around the first detect first kill concept.

I really believe this is gonna cost too much to import FA when our own program needs funds and seriousness. Once imported FA starts coming in, I bet AMCA will be easily sidelined for future or more conceptualized system built around it.
Like USA ain't gonna give you access to integrate your own loyal wingman to their F-35 will they? So you go buy whole kit with it. Going by history, Indigenous will again be sidelined. Big projects are one that gets the private players interested in R&D with big profits.

 

[Herciv]

None of the F-35 coming out of LM manufactory are ready for combat.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-pentagon-cutting-back-new-f-35s-wl

The Air Force says that limited finances and changing budgetary priorities require complete Block 4 F-35s as opposed to less capable aircraft requiring upgrades which include software, weapons, sensors, and a new processor. Such aircraft are not considered ready for frontline service against a peer adversary without those upgrades.

=> Rafale are much more usefull than F-35 unable to fly more than 7,5 hours / month.

 

[Optimist]

Rafale are much more usefull than F-35 unable to fly more than 7,5 hours / month.

What nonsense are you saying now? The French are funny

this was a month ago

Lockheed Martin has announced the completion of its Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3) upgrade for the F-35 Lightning II multirole fighter, declaring the configuration stable and ready for combat use. However, one remaining combat capability still requires validation by the U.S. government before the configuration can be formally approved for operational deployment.

Lockheed Martin completes key F-35 upgrade, awaits final U.S. Government approval

Lockheed Martin has announced the completion of its Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3) upgrade for the F-35 Lightning II multirole fighter, declaring the configuration stable and ready for combat use.

defence-industry.eu

The F-35a is ~200 hours and the F-35c is ~250 hours a year
TR2 was still the best airplane you could buy, TR3 is coming into full service soon

Availability, Use, and Operating and Support Costs of F-35 Fighter Aircraft

At a Glance In this report, the Congressional Budget Office analyzes the recent availability, use, and operating and support costs of stealthy F-35 fighter aircraft. Programwide operating and support costs exceeded $5 billion in 2023. The F-35 has three variants: the F-35A, operated by the Air...

www.cbo.gov

TR2

 

[Herciv]

TR3 is coming into full service soon

Not before 2026 until DOT&E will finished their tests and only if the tests are OK.
"but the F-35 Joint Program Office has yet to confirm the claim or approve the upgrade."

The F-35a is ~200 hours and the F-35c is ~250 hours a year

And 7,5 hours/month in the UK, and 10000 hours for the whole 2024/25 FY for 72 F-35 in australia that only 11 hours a month.

If US are able to make more hours that's only because they have a priority on spare parts.

 

[Herciv]

Your own fleet would even never be able to fly more than 1000 hours / month with 72 F-35.


From your graphic, the F-35 fleet has the capabilty of a 30 years old F-15E fleet !

 

[Subgradewalker]

From your graphic, the F-35 fleet has the capabilty of a 30 years old F-15E fleet !
View attachment 45529

The world haven seen the true power of F-35 Yet. All the instances of F-35 in battle have been similar to past Air doctrine, which isn't the strong point of F-35.

When USA uses it, they will have the web of network assisting F-35 bringing it's true potential. Basically the concepts that rest of the world is working on.. F-35 incorporates them.

AMd it's about the force that will use them. So, only in a contested airspace, we can see what a 5th gen is all about.

 

[Herciv]

The world haven seen the true power of F-35 Yet. All the instances of F-35 in battle have been similar to past Air doctrine, which isn't the strong point of F-35.

When USA uses it, they will have the web of network assisting F-35 bringing it's true potential. Basically the concepts that rest of the world is working on.. F-35 incorporates them.

AMd it's about the force that will use them. So, only in a contested airspace, we can see what a 5th gen is all about.

The real problem is not to engage F-35 in a 2 or 3 days battle but in a high intensity war be it several years. F-35 is absolutly not able to go in such a war.

 

[Subgradewalker]

The real problem is not to engage F-35 in a 2 or 3 days battle but in a high intensity war be it several years. F-35 is absolutly not able to go in such a war.

No air force fly a single FA. There's a mix of platform for own purposes. Any war will have its tactics in air depending on the requirement.

6th gen will be even costlier but it will surely have an important role of its own. To drag a war for long.. the rival will need a strong AD and FA mix to counter F-35 too. Rafael will need huge upgrade in its avionics suite, EW and data link. Sensor fusion etc.. will need backup for better AWACS, radars to fight for the airspace.

I am against importing F-35 for India so, AMCA doesn't derail. But that doesn't mean rafael can do what F-35 can. F-35 was and is for USAF, so only they can unleash it's power as of yet. None of the imported nation have the system backing F-35. They only rely on low RCS to gain little advantage, which is likely less than 40-50% of its potential.

 

[Optimist]

Your own fleet would even never be able to fly more than 1000 hours / month with 72 F-35.
View attachment 45528

From your graphic, the F-35 fleet has the capabilty of a 30 years old F-15E fleet !
View attachment 45529

Maths isn't you best skill, is it
For Australia, The ongoing budget hours, which can change up or down as to the RAAF requirements of 12,000 across the 72, That works out to a fleet average of 167 hr a year, or 14 hr a month, The classified and multi-mission work is done in the sims and aren't a part of the 14 hrs

This gives us a lifetime flight of 47 years, Although there will be times when we use a lot more than the peace time training of 167 hours a year, so I don't expect it to really be in service for that long, 40 years would be considered good

NATO 4th gen has a 180 hour a year, or 15 hours, which is seldom met because of funding, So the F-35 flys one hour less and does a lot more in the sims,
I've also seen the terrible number for French pilots, Do you want me to google it for you?

You sound very foolish Herciv

 

[Herciv]

I am against importing F-35 for India so, AMCA doesn't derail. But that doesn't mean rafael can do what F-35 can. F-35 was and is for USAF, so only they can unleash it's power as of yet. None of the imported nation have the system backing F-35. They only rely on low RCS to gain little advantage, which is likely less than 40-50% of its potential.

What I mean is that complexity has a price in terme of flight hours. With 4gen you are able to fly 250 to 300 hours a year par fighter, with 5 gen Australia with 72 fighter has not been able to make more than 10000 hours that is half what a 4gen is able to do.

 

[Herciv]

Sensor fusion

A central computer will coordinate the air defense of an entire fleet
The INCREASE in the speed and range of enemy weapons, the difficulty for a watch officer to quickly assess an air threat and respond in time, and the slowness of voice communications between warships, have led the French Navy to use equipment that automatically processes information from a ship's or aircraft's radars and transmits it simultaneously to all units comprising the naval force. This equipment, called the Naval Tactical Information System, or Sénit, is currently in service on the missile frigate Suffren and the missile ship Dupetit-Thouars. It is being installed on the second frigate Duquesne, the missile ship Du Chayla, and the fleet escort Tartu. By 1976, all fleet escorts, the anti-aircraft cruiser Colbert, and the aircraft carriers Foch and Clemenceau will also be equipped with Sénit during their next refit. Radar data will be exchanged automatically between all these ships so that all officers on watch responsible for the air defense of a naval force will be aware of the entire situation with the same precision and at the same time.

By JACQUES ISNARD
Published on December 19, 1968 at 12:00 a.m., modified on December 19, 1968 at 12:00 a.m.

This was called SENIT.

 

[Optimist]

What I mean is that complexity has a price in terme of flight hours. With 4gen you are able to fly 250 to 300 hours a year par fighter, with 5 gen Australia with 72 fighter has not been able to make more than 10000 hours that is half what a 4gen is able to do.

Again maths isn't good, Are you saying that European aircraft only last for (8000/ 300 = 26 years)
You are sounding sillier by the minute

 

[Optimist]

The F-35a has been tested to 24,000 hours, so the 8,000 will be extended

 

[Subgradewalker]

What I mean is that complexity has a price in terme of flight hours. With 4gen you are able to fly 250 to 300 hours a year par fighter, with 5 gen Australia with 72 fighter has not been able to make more than 10000 hours that is half what a 4gen is able to do.

Maybe for France which didn't have to fight any major battle near it. Or a geography like India. Hence you can prefer lifetime hours or run over potency.
Now that europe is increasing the defense, you will see how rafael transforms or a new one like FCAS comes along to replace rafael as the frontline main FA of France.

P.S. I don't know about the accuracy of maths. But I will take your word for it.

A central computer will coordinate the air defense of an entire fleet

I am talking about offense not just defense. You are comparing two different things.

 

[Herciv]

I am talking about offense not just defense. You are comparing two different things.

Nope. Sensor fusion and distributed operations, situation awarness is what make senit from the beginning. (1968). Only to say that France masters sensor fusion, EW and data links.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Only time can tell . So let's wait.. you will see what future looks like .

 

[Herciv]

The F-35a has been tested to 24,000 hours, so the 8,000 will be extended

Without taking corrosion into account. By the way this gragh by the CBO show that F-35 have very little chance to go to 8000 hours without major renovations.

 

[Herciv]

Again maths isn't good, Are you saying that European aircraft only last for (8000/ 300 = 26 years)
You are sounding sillier by the minute

Have you ever heard of corrosion?
Corrosion is like a serious disease that slowly spreads throughout the body like sclerosis. It attacks the entire exterior structure of the aircraft, which is most exposed to the weather. It is the stealth material used in the wings that makes this disease spread so quickly.

The result is that an F-35, F-22, AMCA, or any other solution that incorporates too many corrosion-prone materials into its structure ages much more quickly. Obviously, the stealth characteristics of the aircraft are affected.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The good numbers for the F-35 fleet are only because there are a lot of new aircraft since we are in a phase of replacing older models. And what's more, we're not counting the aircraft that are on long-term standstill, and for the F-35 there are a lot of them.

 

[Bon Plan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934824943939690742

"The French Air Force has never experienced large force engagements, not even exercised it, since the Cold War, I believe. They have never engaged in network-centric or no-contact warfare. The Rafale is actually built by imitating American experiences, rather than drawing from their own"

US does not lag behind in EW or as you guys call it "electronic stealth" in any way compared to france, infact their ew game is stronger, they even have dedicated ew fighter jets like growler, they understand ew much better than French at this point.
But they still went with stealth and ew as a very important but complimentary system.
Plus along with their understanding, they have lot more real life experience in working of both systems compared to france and any other country.

Ew is not an equivalent or alternative to stealth.

Even USA didn't face a network-centric opponent so far.

Spectra was studied at a time when not a single competitor did it. And since : Spectra evolved with every rafale standart, and strangely everyone copies it !

The main difference between US approach and France one is that US used dedicated and brutal EW birds to ease and protect a whole raid, when Rafale uses less and smart EW for its own protection.

The F-35a is ~200 hours

= 17 hours /month. Ouah, astonishing....